Is HAL moving downscale?

[iancal]

You can usually tell the people who have probably never been on a Carnival ship or don't know much about them by the comments that they make.....

 

 

I guess the sister ships must be big,:eek: really big sisters, being on a ship with 1800-2000 passengers VS 3800-4500 does it for me:D I love the dark hulls too and way less kids and 20 somethings partying all night.

 

In fact, HAL's Vista class ships have more in common with Carnival ships (and some Costa's) than they do with HAL. Exact same ships...other than HAL plunked some extra cabins on the front of two of their Vista ships.

[terrydtx]

You can usually tell the people who have probably never been on a Carnival ship or don't know much about them by the comments that they make.....

 

 

I guess the sister ships must be big,:eek: really big sisters, being on a ship with 1800-2000 passengers VS 3800-4500 does it for me:D I love the dark hulls too and way less kids and 20 somethings partying all night.

 

In fact, HAL's Vista class ships have more in common with Carnival ships (and some Costa's) than they do with HAL. Exact same ships...other than HAL plunked some extra cabins on the front of two of their Vista ships.

 

Did a cruise on Carnival Elation and never seen so many drunks since I was on Bourbon Street in New Orleans, food and service was OK but the cruise was definitely geared to 20 somethings demographics, been on HAL, RCL and Celebrity and having done them no way I ever go back to Carnival.

[bepsf]

Yes, and it is my understanding that Carnival Corp. essentially saved the HAL brand.

 

At the time of the acquisition Holland America was essentially an insolvent company with a fleet of tired, outdated ships.

 

Quite so.

Carnival was investigating the establishment of a Premium brand. This plan was codenamed "Project Tiffany", with blueprints for a luxury ship just about ready to go to bid - but they decided that it would be simpler to acquire an existing brand rather than start from scratch...

Meanwhile, they came into discussions with HAL CEO Nico van der Vorm for an acquisition. He initially rebuffed their offer, but eventually called Ted Arison back and completed the deal. At the time, HAL had the Rotterdam V and the problematic N-Class twins. HAL had also recently purchased Home Lines - thereby gaining the Homeric which became Westerdam (II). HAL also had recently inked a contract with a yard to build a 65,000 ton vessel with a capacity for 1800 passengers - Imagine a ship the size of an R-Class with the capacity of a Vista: Not spacious at all!

 

Once HAL and Carnival signed the deal, Carnival immediately cancelled the contract for the new ship which exacted a substantial penalty for the line. Meanwhile, HAL and Carnival revised the "Project Tiffany" blueprints for HAL and assigned the contract to Fincantieri in 1990: this ship was to be the current Statendam.

[TeamBozo]

I don't want to leave the impression that the Westerdam cruise was awful--- we did enjoy ourselves. I want to respnd to Derek's request to hear about the good things that balanced our concerns about crowding and cost cutting.

 

The Westerdam is aesthetically a fine ship. Like all HAL ships, she has beautiful use of wood, brass, teak, art, etc. Yes, I even like the blue hulls.

 

I thought the food was overall pretty good, perhaps better than some of the responses to my original post would indicate. We tried to avoid the Lido, which was pretty bland and had an unpleasant atmosphere. We ate quite a few times at Pinnacle and it was great. We usually don't go there for lunch, but we ended up having quite a few lunches and really enjoyed it. The dining room was solid, but as I mentioned before, there didn't seem to be many "special" entrees/meals.

 

I can't say enough good things about the service. We had great dining and room stewards, which makes a big difference. I had the feeling they were handling more tables than previously, but they worked extremely hard to try to make everyone happy. I really can't understand how people who work 7 days a week for 10 months straight can be so upbeat and helpful. I give HAL a lot of credit for their human resource management. It's amazing. The stewards really want to please you.

 

The itinerary is good, but there are lots of sea days. I don't mind that, but it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

 

My wife and I had rarely danced in 30 years. On this cruise, we met one of the dance hosts and ended up learning fox trot, waltz, rumba and a few other things and were dancing every night by the end of the trip. The Neptunes were very good and we had a blast. We're doing 2 more cruises this year (Panama Canal-Inca on Rotterdam and Antarctica on Veendam) and we are totally psyched to get out and dance. I had no idea this would happen and I thank HAL for getting us going.

 

The excursions were fine-- best ones were Submarine in Honolulu, Helicopter in Hilo, Sting Rays in Bora Bora, 4x4 in Lanai. Fanning Island is really a kick.

 

I still would recommend this cruise. It helps if your expectations for the larger ships are realistic. You won't be alone!

[pms4104]

I saw an ad for HAL this morning on Cruise Critic offering a seven night Caribbean cruise for $449!! Talk about lower mass market standards!

 

AG

In addition to the type of pricing you mention ... for the past couple of years HAL has been promoting their "3rd and 4th sail free" (or nearly so) on so many sailings that I have to wonder if filling the ships has become problematic. Well, and heads in beds does not necessarily mean increased spending and, therefore, a more profitable bottom line.

[Hlitner]

Not quite.

HAL added roughly 35 cabins to the sterns of Westerdam, Oosterdam and Zuiderdam about 3-4 years ago.

 

We could have some fun with this. You are correct that they added a few more cabins (70 more folks would have little impact on lines in most venues) but one can also speculate as to how much those additional cabins added to the tonnage of the ship. When they talk about the tons of a cruise ship that is a measure of the space volume...so adding cabins can also add tonnage.

 

Hank

[FrankNJ]

"I would rather HAL keep the prices a little higher and keep their level of food/service but I know that's not the best decision for the company"

 

All I can say is , it's the best decision for the company if they want to keep me travelling on their ships . Have always found Hal's food to be superior to Princess and RCCL , and frankly don't care to sail those lines again mainly for that reason . Although my other problem with Princess was the lines and an overcrowded feeling , which we never see on Hal.

[Randyk47]

Indeed - Oceania, Cunard (Grill Class) and Crystal have proven that there remains a market for a true premium product...

...which is what the HAL brand was intended to be when Carnival Corporation made it's purchase.

 

However, you can't be a premium product when it's priced like mainstream brands and when you have too much capacity.

 

Spot on.

[terrydtx]

The problem with going a few steps up in premium cruise lines like Cunard, Crystal and Oceania is that they are just to pricey to take a cruise more than every couple of years for us. As long as HAL stays a little better than the rest we will be happy, for now, and able to take many more cruises and stay in the superior Veranda or suites cabins we love on HAL. As we approach retirement age the smaller less crowded and noisy ships of HAL have more appeal than the mega ships with climbing walls, water parks and 1000's of passengers.

[Viesczy]

We are puzzled by your post. The Westerdam is about 8 years old and carries the same number of passengers now as when she was launched. Her space ratio is over 45 tons per passenger which is among the highest in the business (for mass market ships). We do agree that there seems to be more crowding these days then years ago...but its not because of the size of the ship. Many more HA passengers seem to want to do everything early....early dinner, early shows, etc. When we cruise on HA (or other ships) we normally dine around 8 and go to the late shows (which are now sometimes before dinner) which are never crowded. It is a similar problem at the lido buffets. If lunch opens at 11:30 it seems like the entire ship wants to eat before noon. If you simply go to lunch around 1 there are no lines. One way to avoid this change in passenger habits is to simply book one of the ultra-luxury lines (such as Regent, Seabourn, etc) where you get an even better space ratio and they can handle all the passengers at a single seating, show, etc.

 

Hank

 

Hank!

I was reply was directed towards TaxGuy saying there was plenty in the classes during his TA but not in TeamBozo's 35 day Hawaii cruise, not towards the ships in general.

 

Sorry for the confusion!

 

Derek

[Viesczy]

I don't want to leave the impression that the Westerdam cruise was awful--- we did enjoy ourselves. I want to respnd to Derek's request to hear about the good things that balanced our concerns about crowding and cost cutting.

 

The Westerdam is aesthetically a fine ship. Like all HAL ships, she has beautiful use of wood, brass, teak, art, etc. Yes, I even like the blue hulls.

 

I thought the food was overall pretty good, perhaps better than some of the responses to my original post would indicate. We tried to avoid the Lido, which was pretty bland and had an unpleasant atmosphere. We ate quite a few times at Pinnacle and it was great. We usually don't go there for lunch, but we ended up having quite a few lunches and really enjoyed it. The dining room was solid, but as I mentioned before, there didn't seem to be many "special" entrees/meals.

 

I can't say enough good things about the service. We had great dining and room stewards, which makes a big difference. I had the feeling they were handling more tables than previously, but they worked extremely hard to try to make everyone happy. I really can't understand how people who work 7 days a week for 10 months straight can be so upbeat and helpful. I give HAL a lot of credit for their human resource management. It's amazing. The stewards really want to please you.

 

The itinerary is good, but there are lots of sea days. I don't mind that, but it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

 

My wife and I had rarely danced in 30 years. On this cruise, we met one of the dance hosts and ended up learning fox trot, waltz, rumba and a few other things and were dancing every night by the end of the trip. The Neptunes were very good and we had a blast. We're doing 2 more cruises this year (Panama Canal-Inca on Rotterdam and Antarctica on Veendam) and we are totally psyched to get out and dance. I had no idea this would happen and I thank HAL for getting us going.

 

The excursions were fine-- best ones were Submarine in Honolulu, Helicopter in Hilo, Sting Rays in Bora Bora, 4x4 in Lanai. Fanning Island is really a kick.

 

I still would recommend this cruise. It helps if your expectations for the larger ships are realistic. You won't be alone!

 

Team Bozo,

AWESOME! I really was worried that you didn't have a great time!

 

You're right about sea days and not everyone does well with them. Personally I love the sea, makes me feel in touch with nature. The song "Morning Sun" by Savatage from their EPIC CD 'The Wake of Magellan' always is in my head when listening/watching/riding the sea. It just feels like... home.

 

Awesome for dancing! See you in dance offs?

 

Derek

 

PS Here are the lyrics for the song I mentioned:

 

http://www.metrolyrics.com/morning-sun-lyrics-savatage.html <3 that song!

[Hlitner]

Hank!

I was reply was directed towards TaxGuy saying there was plenty in the classes during his TA but not in TeamBozo's 35 day Hawaii cruise, not towards the ships in general.

 

Sorry for the confusion!

 

Derek

 

LOL. You are right to think I misunderstood your post. Figured you were talking about crowding in general. The only place we generally encounter lines on any ship is waiting for food! :)

 

Hank

[igraf]

I learned something new! I always thought that gross tonnage had something to do with displaced water weight/volume.

 

What a convoluted measurement system! Read about ship tonnage at the link below and it will make your brain tired:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnage

 

I suppose that it was just too simple to measure volume in terms of .... volume?

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

...When they talk about the tons of a cruise ship that is a measure of the space volume...so adding cabins can also add tonnage.

 

Hank

[innlady1]

As for Lobster tails -- no big deal there as far as I am concerned. JMO -- they are awful -- too salty and too small.

 

The digital workshop classes have been popular since they were introduced. Being on such a long cruise -- you should have caught on right away -- get there early!!

 

I agree on the lobster tails. Yuck, IMO. Being from New England, and able to enjoy Maine lobster, we never order the lobster on the ship...it tastes nothing like the lobster we're used to here.

DH loves the digital workshops so he always gets in line a half hour or so ahead of time. Interestingly enough, we were on a b2b in February '09, and the Digital Workshop started on the 2nd half of that Noordam cruise...the first few days, DH and I were the only participants!

[innlady1]

Quite so.

 

Carnival was investigating the establishment of a Premium brand. This plan was codenamed "Project Tiffany", with blueprints for a luxury ship just about ready to go to bid - but they decided that it would be simpler to acquire an existing brand rather than start from scratch...

 

Meanwhile, they came into discussions with HAL CEO Nico van der Vorm for an acquisition. He initially rebuffed their offer, but eventually called Ted Arison back and completed the deal. At the time, HAL had the Rotterdam V and the problematic N-Class twins. HAL had also recently purchased Home Lines - thereby gaining the Homeric which became Westerdam (II). HAL also had recently inked a contract with a yard to build a 65,000 ton vessel with a capacity for 1800 passengers - Imagine a ship the size of an R-Class with the capacity of a Vista: Not spacious at all!

 

Once HAL and Carnival signed the deal, Carnival immediately cancelled the contract for the new ship which exacted a substantial penalty for the line. Meanwhile, HAL and Carnival revised the "Project Tiffany" blueprints for HAL and assigned the contract to Fincantieri in 1990: this ship was to be the current Statendam.

 

Thank you, Brian, for that interesting information...I did not know that. :cool:

[bepsf]

We could have some fun with this. You are correct that they added a few more cabins (70 more folks would have little impact on lines in most venues) but one can also speculate as to how much those additional cabins added to the tonnage of the ship. When they talk about the tons of a cruise ship that is a measure of the space volume...so adding cabins can also add tonnage.

 

Hank

 

Yes, adding cabins did add tonnage...

....But it didn't add space in the bars & lounges, seats in the Lido, very much deck space, or any additional staff.