Carnival Flags Second Vessel for Australia

[CroNich]

I dont see why they just accept the fact that Sydney harbour only really has enough room for visiting ships on the east side and invest in building a proper world class cruise terminal in Botany. Sure it may not be as nice but at least it would make embarking/disembarking quicker.

[NSWP]

I dont see why they just accept the fact that Sydney harbour only really has enough room for visiting ships on the east side and invest in building a proper world class cruise terminal in Botany. Sure it may not be as nice but at least it would make embarking/disembarking quicker.

Just like San Pedro, right next to the massive Los Angeles Container Terminal. Yes, a new cruise terminal at Botany Container Terminal would be out of the Sydney congestion, but not the nicest place to embark and disembark pax, whether from Australia or overseas. Closer to Sydney Airport though!

 

Just my thoughts anyway.

[CroNich]

Just like San Pedro, right next to the massive Los Angeles Container Terminal. Yes, a new cruise terminal at Botany Container Terminal would be out of the Sydney congestion, but not the nicest place to embark and disembark pax, whether from Australia or overseas. Closer to Sydney Airport though!

 

Just my thoughts anyway.

 

Yeah I know but neither are some of the busiest ports in the world. I mean granted that World cruises deserve to be docked in our beautiful harbour but people who already live in Sydney or other parts of Australia it wouldnt be as big as a deal. I mean its not really like we have an option anymore, Garden Island will never be a proper turn around terminal. So its really either Port Botany or send them somewhere else

[Cruise ship fan]

The botany bay terminal would cause a decline in the number of cruises from Sydney. It would make Brisbane and Melbourne much more attractive. This would mean that people in victoria and Queensland wouldn't travel as much to Sydney to cruise when they could get the same cruise only cheaper and minus an airfare. The sail out and sail into Sydney Harbour is one of the main reasons why Sydney is so successful with cruise ships compared to other cities in Australia. It may not be that important for many people here as you have most likely seen it before but it is for other people.

[rkmw]

The botany bay terminal would cause a decline in the number of cruises from Sydney. It would make Brisbane and Melbourne much more attractive. This would mean that people in victoria and Queensland wouldn't travel as much to Sydney to cruise when they could get the same cruise only cheaper and minus an airfare. The sail out and sail into Sydney Harbour is one of the main reasons why Sydney is so successful with cruise ships compared to other cities in Australia. It may not be that important for many people here as you have most likely seen it before but it is for other people.

 

you mention Queensland would be better than Sydney, have you cruised out of Brisbane recently....cruising from Portside is good but any big cruise ship has to dock at the Grain Terminal which is out in the never never

[The_Big_M]

Yeah I know but neither are some of the busiest ports in the world. I mean granted that World cruises deserve to be docked in our beautiful harbour but people who already live in Sydney or other parts of Australia it wouldnt be as big as a deal. I mean its not really like we have an option anymore, Garden Island will never be a proper turn around terminal. So its really either Port Botany or send them somewhere else

 

Completely agree. Many 'major' international cruise ports aren't even located close to the city, and it still doesn't cause a decline in people visiting them, for obvious reasons. The city's the draw and people will still want to go to it.

 

Botany's still well located, being only about 20 minutes away from the centre, on a good thoroughfare and still in an urban area.

 

Of course, the real issue is whether it's a possible option, since it's up to the stevedore companies how it's used.

[The_Big_M]

you mention Queensland would be better than Sydney, have you cruised out of Brisbane recently....cruising from Portside is good but any big cruise ship has to dock at the Grain Terminal which is out in the never never

 

Ugh, Brisbane's my least favourite terminal on the east coast. Although it's about to be challenged by Melbourne with the introduction of compulsory mykis... though Melboune willl still be more convenient and pleasant than Brisbane's grain wharf.

[Cruise ship fan]

you mention Queensland would be better than Sydney, have you cruised out of Brisbane recently....cruising from Portside is good but any big cruise ship has to dock at the Grain Terminal which is out in the never never

 

But Queenslanders wont travel to Sydney then because there is no benefit as you are in a cargo area.

[CroNich]

Also its not like botany bay is particularly ugly anyway. Much nicer then Port Everglades, Port Canaveral or Brisbane. Melbourne is too inconvenient for South Pacific cruises but its ok if they want a ship doing b2b new zealand.

[Kiwi Kruzer]

you mention Queensland would be better than Sydney, have you cruised out of Brisbane recently....cruising from Portside is good but any big cruise ship has to dock at the Grain Terminal which is out in the never never

 

 

Sydney , whether its the Harbour or Botany Bay will always win out over Brisbane and Melbourne due to one simple fact...

its proximity to the sea.

 

That may sound strange, but consider ....

Melbourne.

its a long haul through Port Phillip Bay to get to Station pier, and that's after the ship has negotiated the Gap to get in.

Brisbane.

The entry to Brisbane starts way up at Caloundra and again its a long haul through Moreton Bay following a fairly narrow channel.

Sydney.

Sail out through the heads and you in the Ocean.

 

With cruise lines watching the cost of fuel Sydney , will always win out.

 

 

[Haoie]

There'll be 2 Fantasy class ships going out of LA next year doing the same 3-4 night iten!

 

Maybe they'll send 1 of those down under.

[The_Big_M]

But Queenslanders wont travel to Sydney then because there is no benefit as you are in a cargo area.

 

I don't believe all cruisers only choose a cruise because of the dock they leave from.

[Kiwi Kruzer]

I don't believe all cruisers only choose a cruise because of the dock they leave from.

 

I am sure that the passengers joining Pacific Princess in Fort Lauderdale today for her Christmas Cruise are not bothered by all the industrial installations around the port.

 

 

 

[Cruise ship fan]

I am saying that most people will sail out of Sydney rather then Brisbane due to the sail out of Sydney. Most cruisers no nothing about the range of cruise lines with most people not even knowing lines other then P&O. To people all ships are about the same.

 

Sydney is one of the few locations in the world were people will travel around the world to sail out of. You don't need to go any further then the decks onboard where its hard to get a spot to view the cruise into sydney even when its 5am. No where else have I seen this.

[The_Big_M]

I am saying that most people will sail out of Sydney rather then Brisbane due to the sail out of Sydney.

 

Again, I don't agree. If you mean people from Brisbane, there are still many Brisbanites that sail out of Brisbane if the ship, itinerary and everything else suits.

 

I actually doubt many would fly to Sydney and back, if everything else on the cruise was the same as from Brisbane, just to sail out of Sydney Harbour.

 

Sydney is one of the few locations in the world were people will travel around the world to sail out of. You don't need to go any further then the decks onboard where its hard to get a spot to view the cruise into sydney even when its 5am. No where else have I seen this.

 

That's sensible because people will do things if the opportunity is available.

 

It doesn't mean that if the opportunity is not available then people will avoid the entire cruise.

 

The argument above is a bit like saying there were heaps of people watching the ice skating show on Voyager, so that it was completely full. Therefore, if a ship doesn't have ice skating people won't go on it. Or more broadly, there are heaps of people who visit Sydney especially for the fireworks. Therefore, people won't go to Sydney if they're not having fireworks.

 

Clearly, both assumptions are not true.

 

People will still sail to and from Sydney based on itinerary, ship, time, cost. After all they already sail from Brisbane even though it doesn't have that Harbour! Sydney's the international gateway, with a greater population, so for a variety of reasons you're going to have more choice, and more cruisers out of Sydney. Regardless of where the dock is.

[Cruise ship fan]

Again, I don't agree. If you mean people from Brisbane, there are still many Brisbanites that sail out of Brisbane if the ship, itinerary and everything else suits.

 

I actually doubt many would fly to Sydney and back, if everything else on the cruise was the same as from Brisbane, just to sail out of Sydney Harbour.

 

 

 

That's sensible because people will do things if the opportunity is available.

 

It doesn't mean that if the opportunity is not available then people will avoid the entire cruise.

 

The argument above is a bit like saying there were heaps of people watching the ice skating show on Voyager, so that it was completely full. Therefore, if a ship doesn't have ice skating people won't go on it. Or more broadly, there are heaps of people who visit Sydney especially for the fireworks. Therefore, people won't go to Sydney if they're not having fireworks.

 

Clearly, both assumptions are not true.

 

People will still sail to and from Sydney based on itinerary, ship, time, cost. After all they already sail from Brisbane even though it doesn't have that Harbour! Sydney's the international gateway, with a greater population, so for a variety of reasons you're going to have more choice, and more cruisers out of Sydney. Regardless of where the dock is.

 

If what you are saying is true then why on earth would so many people travel to Sydney when you can get an identical cruise from Brisbane.

 

Of course Sydney will always have more passenger but the population difference is not all that different. Brisbane is half the size of Sydney, it only has one ship there year round, with a few extra Princess ships in the summer. Sydney has 3 ships based year round as well as a ton of ships based in the summer months (at least 6 as well as the heap of ships that do one or two cruises) That means that Brisbane has 3 and Sydney has 9, three times Brisbane's (plus the fact they are bigger ships). So when Sydney has only double to population how does this account for these huge differences.

 

Also if the harbour isn't the issue why did Newcastle not receive an ongoing cruise ship, instead of the one or two cruises plus visits. It is not all that far from Sydney. In fact I live a lot closer to Newcastle then Sydney and yet I am classed as part of the population of Sydney. Newcastle is a lot more easy for people to access even for those who live right near Sydney, due to less traffic, as well as things being cheaper. So all the people in Sydney could just as easily of gone to Newcastle to catch a ship, but they didn't. Explain?

[ceejay3377]

I live in Victoria and choose my cruises based on the ship and itinerary. Sure Sydney is lovely to sail out of, but that is at most an hour of the cruise for goodness sake!:confused: Since I have already driven for three hours just to get to the airport so I can get to the ship, the port of departure makes very little difference to me. Flight costs Melb/Syd/Melb are not much cheaper than Melb/Bris/Melb, especially if you wait for specials. To be honest, I would love to see a few more of the US ships do a few cruises from Brisbane, only because of this city's proximity to the South Pacific. Melbourne is really only an option for NZ.

 

But let's throw a curly one in the mix ... I reckon Darwin could be a great gateway, especially for cruises to SE Asia, PNG, etc.!! Just need a few more flights and a better terminal :)

 

Cheers,

[The_Big_M]

If what you are saying is true then why on earth would so many people travel to Sydney when you can get an identical cruise from Brisbane.

 

Of course Sydney will always have more passenger but the population difference is not all that different. Brisbane is half the size of Sydney, it only has one ship there year round, with a few extra Princess ships in the summer. Sydney has 3 ships based year round as well as a ton of ships based in the summer months (at least 6 as well as the heap of ships that do one or two cruises) That means that Brisbane has 3 and Sydney has 9, three times Brisbane's (plus the fact they are bigger ships). So when Sydney has only double to population how does this account for these huge differences.

 

The world is bigger than Brisbane :D

 

Sydney is the more international city. Does Brisbane have the Opera House, the Harbour bridge, the international finance, conventions, the better links? This isn't about which city is better, but you've already acknowledged double the population accounting for 3 of those ships. It's quite easy to justify the extra 3 ships again just based on connectivity, awareness and international attractiveness.

 

Tell me about any overseas countries you want to travel to. If the US and you're a first timer, would you say you want to visit New York... or Buffalo? Or would you want to visit LA, and Hollywood and Disneyland... or San Diego?

 

Say the UK. Do you want to go to London... or Cardiff? :p

 

It's that simple.

 

Also if the harbour isn't the issue why did Newcastle not receive an ongoing cruise ship, instead of the one or two cruises plus visits. It is not all that far from Sydney. In fact I live a lot closer to Newcastle then Sydney and yet I am classed as part of the population of Sydney. Newcastle is a lot more easy for people to access even for those who live right near Sydney, due to less traffic, as well as things being cheaper. So all the people in Sydney could just as easily of gone to Newcastle to catch a ship, but they didn't. Explain?

 

I'm not sure why I need to "explain."

 

However they did try to give Newcastle an ongoing cruise ship. P&O tried for a season. Had it been successful, that would have been extended.

 

For the majority of people outside either city it is much easier to get to Sydney than it is to Newcastle, and Sydney has a population over 10 times more than Newcastle as I recall. So even though they were hoping for success from the 'it's not so hard to get to Newcastle' angle, it's still a lot harder than it is for most to get to Sydney. You say it's easier for you, but even within the state geographically, what about the larger population centres of Wollongong and Canberra? Which location will be easier and cheaper for them to get to? Newcastle is good for the third biggest population location within NSW, but it's a worse choice for the 1st, 2nd and 4th, plus interstate and international travellers. That makes a world of difference.

 

Yields were terrible and the cruises were pulled out.

[Cruise ship fan]

The world is bigger than Brisbane :D

 

Sydney is the more international city. Does Brisbane have the Opera House, the Harbour bridge, the international finance, conventions, the better links? This isn't about which city is better, but you've already acknowledged double the population accounting for 3 of those ships. It's quite easy to justify the extra 3 ships again just based on connectivity, awareness and international attractiveness.

 

Tell me about any overseas countries you want to travel to. If the US and you're a first timer, would you say you want to visit New York... or Buffalo? Or would you want to visit LA, and Hollywood and Disneyland... or San Diego?

 

Say the UK. Do you want to go to London... or Cardiff? :p

 

It's that simple.

 

The thing is not that big of a percentage of passengers are even foreigners. Most of them live in Australia. Many cruise passengers don't stay in the city for that long before the cruise maybe one or two nights tops (not all passengers but many), so they don't really get to see the city.

 

You can add on top of that, many cruisers will only cruise once in their life. So if you (imagine your a Queenslander) had that one opportunity to cruise would you rather take a sailing out of Sydney Harbour or Sailing out of the Brisbane river. Now think would you rather sail out of an industrial area in another state or sail out of an industrial area in your own state and save the money.

 

Also you underestimated the draw Brisbane has internationally. Mostly due to the its close proximity to the Gold Coast parks. I have a lot of knowledge when it comes to theme parks around the world and it is surprising just how much attention our little parks get especially in Asia.

 

 

I'm not sure why I need to "explain."

 

However they did try to give Newcastle an ongoing cruise ship. P&O tried for a season. Had it been successful, that would have been extended.

 

For the majority of people outside either city it is much easier to get to Sydney than it is to Newcastle, and Sydney has a population over 10 times more than Newcastle as I recall. So even though they were hoping for success from the 'it's not so hard to get to Newcastle' angle, it's still a lot harder than it is for most to get to Sydney. You say it's easier for you, but even within the state geographically, what about the larger population centres of Wollongong and Canberra? Which location will be easier and cheaper for them to get to? Newcastle is good for the third biggest population location within NSW, but it's a worse choice for the 1st, 2nd and 4th, plus interstate and international travellers. That makes a world of difference.

 

Yields were terrible and the cruises were pulled out.

 

The why would other similar locations around the world still be successful as cruise terminals when they are similar in size and in distance from the other city. Miami vs Fort Lauderdale. Neither port has a drawing factor so they are both successful.

 

Getting to Newcastle harder then Sydney, that's a laugh, so driving through heavy traffic through the confusing Sydney street (one of the worst laid out traffic systems in the world) is easier then bypassing all of it and taking a freeway then making one turn off it to take you virtually to the "cruise terminal", with very little traffic in comparison. Even from the areas listed it is basically all freeway travel. If flying it is easier in Newcastle then Sydney. It even has shuttle buses to the city (which is much smaller then Sydney so it can drop you at most hotels which are all in close location to the terminal. This is verses Sydney where the hotels are scattered throughout other highrise building making it hard for someone to make there way to the terminal without taxi or other transport even if it is only close (unless of course they know the area).

 

Newcastle is 560 000 Sydney is 4 500 000. but many of that population stretches most of the way to Newcastle. This area includes the central coast the third largest residential area in NSW and the ninth in Australia. For this whole area it is easier to get to Newcastle. Also easier for those in the West since you can bypass the traffic and confussing roads. By train it is just as easy since most passengers need to change to the city circle at central. Well trains run from Straithfield and central too Newcastle where the station is just across from the "cruise Terminal".

 

So in what way is getting to Newcastle hard.

[The_Big_M]

The thing is not that big of a percentage of passengers are even foreigners.

 

I wouldn't call 50% "not that big of a percentage." Of course it depends what ship and what cruise, but you haven't specified anything in particular.

 

Most of them live in Australia.

 

In the whole year, yes. But they're not going to sail from somewhere else when Sydney is most convenient to the largest number. And it is less convenient and attractive for the still significant number of tourists.

 

Most of the international cruise ships are still coming here to serve the international customer base as much as Australians. That's why they remain operated from overseas, keep their local currency e.g. USD as the currency.

 

Many cruise passengers don't stay in the city for that long before the cruise maybe one or two nights tops (not all passengers but many), so they don't really get to see the city.

 

Which is irrelevant. You serve where you offer the most convenience to your customers. And Sydney is more convenient to most passengers.

 

You can add on top of that, many cruisers will only cruise once in their life.

 

That's another unsubstantiated assertion. And also irrelevant to the discussion. Even playing along with that, say they cruised once in the life from LA, does that mean they will never visit Sydney?

 

People visit places because they choose to, for a whole variety of reasons. Whether they cruise once in their life or not, it doesn't mean they wouldn't cruise from Sydney if the cruise is not in Sydney Harbour, which it appears is what you're trying to imply. For any single individual who chose not to cruise because it was not in Sydney Harbour, there would be others who take it up. There are a whole number of people who can't take a particular cruise because it's not in school holidays for example, yet the cruise lines survive.

 

So if you (imagine your a Queenslander) had that one opportunity to cruise would you rather take a sailing out of Sydney Harbour or Sailing out of the Brisbane river.

 

Could you give me an exact count on how many Queenslanders there are who plan to take ONLY one cruise in their life, and are making the decision between Sydney and Brisbane, and everything else is the same?

 

Now think would you rather sail out of an industrial area in another state or sail out of an industrial area in your own state and save the money.

 

Already discussed. People have heaps of preferences. It doesn't mean that if they don't get all of them they won't take the opportunity.

 

Would you rather get a helicopter flight from your front yard, direct to the ship, with champagne and snacks on the flight, a suite onboard the ship and escorted tours all the way? Rather than driving through busy traffic, finding a parking space, queuing up for a budget flight with no service onboard and then rushing again on the ground to make your connection to the ship?

 

Guess what. Virtually ALL cruisers will be doing the latter even though they would prefer the former.

 

Also you underestimated the draw Brisbane has internationally. Mostly due to the its close proximity to the Gold Coast parks. I have a lot of knowledge when it comes to theme parks around the world and it is surprising just how much attention our little parks get especially in Asia.

 

I didn't underestimate it. In 2010, Sydney had 43% of arrivals and Brisbane 16.9. Sydney's basically half of the tourism market.

 

Further, I would expect cruise line tourists to make an even greater proportion through Sydney than those above, given that Sydney has the far better and stronger links with the US and Europe, whereas Brisbane's international links are more regional where we don't get many cruise passengers from.

 

As for theme parks, Asia is keen on their own as well so even though the GC is trying to market them, it's not an easy slog.

 

The why would other similar locations around the world still be successful as cruise terminals when they are similar in size and in distance from the other city. Miami vs Fort Lauderdale. Neither port has a drawing factor so they are both successful.

 

Since you brought up the example, please provide the passenger numbers through those ports, and then compare them to Sydney.

 

To put it simply, you're comparing massively different markets. You may as well ask why London has 4 operational passenger airports when Sydney has one. Basically, they - again - have massively greater numbers sailing to justify the volume, as people familiar with those ports would know.

 

Get back to me when Sydney has 6 x 3,000-6,000 sailings in a day - on a regular occurrence. Fort Lauderdale alone has the world record of 15 departures in a day. And you're asking why they have more than one cruise terminal successfully operating?!? :eek::p

 

Getting to Newcastle harder then Sydney, that's a laugh, so driving through heavy traffic through the confusing Sydney street (one of the worst laid out traffic systems in the world) is easier then bypassing all of it and taking a freeway then making one turn off it to take you virtually to the "cruise terminal", with very little traffic in comparison.

 

You're really displaying a lack of common sense here.

 

If choices were equal because there was sufficient volume to justify it then people may be willing to spend the extra couple of hours going up north to Newcastle.

 

But with the size of the market, and the natural advantages to Sydney, there is no business sense in relocating cruises out from Sydney to Newcastle. P&O tried doing it for a more relaxed market of locals, and even that failed. You're arguing with evidence here.

[Royalty X]

So...Carnival...new ship...

(trying to get back on topic)

[MalGee64]

West coast sailings to Darwin, Bali and so forth are always extremely popular. Plenty of space in Freo for the Miracle...

[CroNich]

How do we know its the Miracle?

 

Also if they are planning to send another ship here and plan to "aussie-fy" it I hope they spend at least almost as much money and effort as they are with the Destiny/Sunshine to make it feel like a completely new ship

[CassCruise]

How do we know its the Miracle?

 

Also if they are planning to send another ship here and plan to "aussie-fy" it I hope they spend at least almost as much money and effort as they are with the Destiny/Sunshine to make it feel like a completely new ship

I mentioned the Miracle as one night talking to our waiters - one was looking forward to having a break after our cruise and the other shortly thereafter - when asking whether they were returning to the Spirit one said he was and the other he put his finger to his mouth and said "shhhhhh we have been told the Miracle is going to come to Australia and I, at this stage, will return to this one" ......................... so we (well I) don't know for sure but just repeating what a waiter told me about his next contract ........