Kids on Seadream

[Jim Avery]

Apologies commodoredave but doesnt it seem exasperating to keep on at Sea Dream ?

 

What makes it worse, is that if management do follow these forums (how do you know that ?)

 

Because different individual members of managment have told more than one of us so . . the former President, Larry Pimentel originally hated CC and gave little credit to it, but has learned to live with it on Azamara. After all we only represent a few individuals in the total market. More than half the newbies I meet on SD have never heard of CC, though we always meet a few couples who are trying SD for the first time because of the reviews and/or this Board.

 

FT

 

The posters on these boards are relatively few passengers but, as we all know, there are many more "Lurkers" here that keep up with the posts. In fact, I once had one Frequent Traveler introduce herself to me at the TOY Bar as a Lurker on Cruise Critic. And look how many posts she has now!:eek::D

[goRRRdon]

Well that's me told !

 

Grateful and appreciative to the experienced FREQUENT TRAVELER & KNOTHEADUSC for putting me straight and well said also to JIM AVERY.

 

Don't you just sense the disparity between what the crew offer and what management/owner offer and doesn't it drive you mad at the gulf between them.

The long hours, away from home, all sorts of conditions and they give, give, give (the crew that is, in case there's any doubt).

Then there is the Guest Review after every voyage. Practically any (rare) downgrading is due to the management/owner NOT the crew but they are the ones penalised.

 

May I suggest the management/owner produce a review card after the voyage:

 

How was the booking handled ?

Was the costing breakdown easy to follow ?

Did we carefully explain to you that if you are bringing children that we advised you of the strict requirements expected ?

Did we advise you that children may be onboard and how many ?

Did we advise you that large group/s would be onboard ?

Did you feel our level of compensation was commensurate with the nuisance suffered due to there being children and or large groups onboard which we failed to notify you about before your voyage ?

Would you like to join our loyalty programme, rewarding clients that have undertaken more than 2 cruises ?

[commodoredave]

As someone suggested previously, I think the problem is that if SD management designated some cruises as "Children Welcome" and others as "Adults Only", most of the "children welcome" cruises would run 65% vacant. Many adults don't want to sail on a small luxury ship with children, but cruise lines don't want to give up the extra revenue (albeit small). So they would rather deceive loyal pax by not being honest about when and how many children will be sailing.

If I'm wrong, I hope someone in SD management will correct me.

[frequent traveler]

As someone suggested previously, I think the problem is that if SD management designated some cruises as "Children Welcome" and others as "Adults Only", most of the "children welcome" cruises would run 65% vacant. Many adults don't want to sail on a small luxury ship with children, but cruise lines don't want to give up the extra revenue (albeit small). So they would rather deceive loyal pax by not being honest about when and how many children will be sailing.

If I'm wrong, I hope someone in SD management will correct me.

 

Unfortunately I agree with you, SD has always told me or my TA UPON INQUIRY how many children are booked. However that number increased after final payment on our last voyage and we had no recourse. I didn't buy cancel for any reason insurance so we had a wonderful first week and a hopefully never to be repeated 2nd week.

[abenaki]

I would be curious to know how many weeks per year are presently being impacted by children being on board the 2 ships. Hasn't really ever happened to us (knock on wood) and we began sailing with SeaDream a month after they began.

 

I say this to encourage those of you who are booked and getting nervous. The likelyhood of encountering children, outside of school holiday periods perhaps, remains slim, in my experience. Groups of adults is an issue that I would be more concerned about, frankly, given the size of the ship.

[knotheadusc]

I actually blogged about this issue today on my travel blog. But since my last links were deleted, I'm just going to say that yes, it is maddening that the staff is so wonderful but management doesn't seem to care much about pleasing the people who keep coming back for more.

 

I have a friend that I met on SeaDream who predicted last year that SeaDream is going downhill. I didn't want to believe him then and still don't, but it's hard to ignore the evidence.

[Jim Avery]

I would be curious to know how many weeks per year are presently being impacted by children being on board the 2 ships. Hasn't really ever happened to us (knock on wood) and we began sailing with SeaDream a month after they began.

 

I say this to encourage those of you who are booked and getting nervous. The likelyhood of encountering children, outside of school holiday periods perhaps, remains slim, in my experience. Groups of adults is an issue that I would be more concerned about, frankly, given the size of the ship.

 

You have been very lucky. As I said before, all but one of my "Kid Trips" has been outside normal school holidays. I only wish my luck was as good at hitting the lottery as it has been hitting kid voyages.:D

[goRRRdon]

I would be curious to know how many weeks per year are presently being impacted by children being on board the 2 ships. Hasn't really ever happened to us (knock on wood) and we began sailing with SeaDream a month after they began.

 

I say this to encourage those of you who are booked and getting nervous. The likelyhood of encountering children, outside of school holiday periods perhaps, remains slim, in my experience. Groups of adults is an issue that I would be more concerned about, frankly, given the size of the ship.

 

Unfortunately abenaki:

- the issue seems to be worsening over the recent years (you've been lucky)

- the issue applies to pre-school children mainly (older children want more activity)

- school holidays vary worldwide

- irresponsible parents take children out of school for vacation

[whatnot]

I don't know how we have been so lucky either. We have been on 8 SD cruises and no problems. There was a baby on board once and a couple of young teenage girls from Brazil on another. All well behaved. Also some of the owners children have been on board, but they were not a problem either. But we have sailed the Caribbean in Jan/ Feb, done the Med in Sept/Oct, Baltic in June, and Black Sea in May/June. Perhaps we have sailed the times of the year that children would not sail. I have empathy for those of you who are now or have experienced problems with children on SD. I would not be a happy camper if I had experienced the events I have read about recently. I support all of you in your efforts to get clarification on the issue from SD management. I think it comes down to the fact that they advertise 56 couples. Nothing said about children. They need to stand by their ads or change their advertising!

[goRRRdon]

I guess there must be some legal eagles out there - yes, you !

Your fellow/potential Sea Dream passengers/ lovers NEED YOU ! (you maybe have'nt posted before: it's real easy) please explain (think you are explaining this to a seven year old: oh, the irony !)

 

IS THERE A LEGAL CASE AGAINST SEA DREAM FOR THIS DECEPTION IN THE PROMOTION OF THEIR PRODUCT & THE ACTUALITY

 

It seems we are nearing the end of the road on this one; leaving only the un-thinkable.........

[JES4845]

On the advertising issue, SD no longer says 56 couples as they once did. In fact we had kids on our first cruise in 2008 and given the couples ads and marketing we registered mild concerns and pointed to the couples description. We were told then by SD that legally they can't stop kids (not sure I agree) and they discourage them. The couples references dropped at some point thereafter. That said, as we are experiencing on SD1 these past two weeks in the Black Sea, kids whether well behaved or not are simply incompatible on a small ship with the yachting not cruising theme. The staff here still provide the top notch product but enjoying it is undermined with these kids though Miami has clearly conveyed ours and others concerns to staff here and staff is trying. At this point we and others do our best to avoid the kids. We now have a tough decision to make about future bookings we have made. If you ask Miami will advise how many kids and what ages. For Costa Rica/Panama departing Dec. 28 there are about ten of them under 18 from teens to real young ones. Could be ok or not but as others have said here the issue is the risk once final payment is made.

[richb21]

At the risk of getting flamed, i think this issue is pretty straightforward. Sea Dream is in the business of making money, or at least not losing too much money so aren't going to be turning away paying clients. I think one of you observed correctly that voyages explicitly advertised as child friendly would likely run far from full, assuming Sea Dream generally runs 90% or so capacity on average which appears to be the case, that's not a winning formula unless the adult only cruises can command a significant premium. I do perceive that Sea Dream is having a more difficult time on some voyages getting to the 90% capacity than they did a few years ago, it seems like Windstar has raised its profile/game and advertises much more so there could be some pressure. To be clear, i cringed a few weeks ago when i saw a small handful of kids a few weeks ago on SD1, but it turned out they were very well behaved and a delight, so i would have hated to cancel based on knowledge of there being children on board. There's no perfect answer here for all "stakeholders", seems like the best balance is (as some here have suggested) that HQ be very explicit to those who bring children what the standards of behavior are, but that's no guaranty. Or perhaps they could try an "experiment" with a small number of adult only voyages and see how that impacts overall sales. It is a small ship, and while we were lucky, it doesn't take but a few unruly fellow passengers (children or adult) to meaningfully mar a vacation, in a larger ship a few bad eggs are much less obvious, but there's a reason we choose a small ship. As for me, since returning i have shared my Sea Dream experience with others, and will likely plan another trip next year with some of them. And yes, i have warned them that we are taking a real risk with "kids on board"!

 

 

 

 

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[JES4845]

At the risk of continuing to gin us all up on a sore subject, the point about SD wanting to make money is valid but begs the follow up question what course of action by SD is truly the most profit maximizing. If they are simply desperate for short term cash flow, then take whatever paying passengers come their way and consequences be ignored. If on the other hand the goal is to build and maintain a product brand to attract loyal customers for the log haul then not being more discouraging about kids if not outright against people bringing them will cost them money. Those with kids are in the distinct minority but have an outsized impact on the rest of us whether the kids behave or not. This is the first voyage since we started on SD five years ago that we will not be making an onboard future booking or open booking. We are actively reconsidering the three we have already reserved for later this year and next year. We understand kids problems exist on other small ships. We are intrigued by comments here that Windstar does not allow kids or at least does more to discourage them. We may just stop cruising of yachting and go back to the many kid-free trips on land we did before SD. Are river cruises any better as to kids?

[goRRRdon]

No, when you throw them overboard there is a stronger chance they may make land and re-appear a few hours later !

 

OK time to go to my Anger Management classes.

[whatnot]

I'm doing a River Cruise next week. Will report in on my experience,

[richb21]

JES, i think you nailed it, it comes down to what is profit maxmizing for SD and answer is unclear. And i think Winstar does have more kids than SD, my only point was that they seem to be positioning themselves a bit more upscale and have more marketing dollars to spend than SD.

 

 

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[Jim Avery]

I'm doing a River Cruise next week. Will report in on my experience,

 

Hi Whatnot.

What river cruise line are you taking? This is on "the list" for us too.:D

[whatnot]

We are going on Uniworld. We are going to Budapest for 3 days, then board the River Beatrice for a 7 day cruise down the Danube to Passau, Germany. Then we are going on our own to Prague for 4 nights. Uniworld is not currently all inclusive but will be in 2014. They do free wine and beer at lunch and dinner. They also have free internet and included shore excursions. AND I don't expect any children! I probably will do a report on the River Cruise Board. I'll try to check in here to let you all know how to find it.

[frequent traveler]

At the risk of getting flamed, i think this issue is pretty straightforward. Sea Dream is in the business of making money, or at least not losing too much money so aren't going to be turning away paying clients. I think one of you observed correctly that voyages explicitly advertised as child friendly would likely run far from full, assuming Sea Dream generally runs 90% or so capacity on average which appears to be the case, that's not a winning formula unless the adult only cruises can command a significant premium. I do perceive that Sea Dream is having a more difficult time on some voyages getting to the 90% capacity than they did a few years ago, it seems like Windstar has raised its profile/game and advertises much more so there could be some pressure. To be clear, i cringed a few weeks ago when i saw a small handful of kids a few weeks ago on SD1, but it turned out they were very well behaved and a delight, so i would have hated to cancel based on knowledge of there being children on board. There's no perfect answer here for all "stakeholders", seems like the best balance is (as some here have suggested) that HQ be very explicit to those who bring children what the standards of behavior are, but that's no guaranty. Or perhaps they could try an "experiment" with a small number of adult only voyages and see how that impacts overall sales. It is a small ship, and while we were lucky, it doesn't take but a few unruly fellow passengers (children or adult) to meaningfully mar a vacation, in a larger ship a few bad eggs are much less obvious, but there's a reason we choose a small ship. As for me, since returning i have shared my Sea Dream experience with others, and will likely plan another trip next year with some of them. And yes, i have warned them that we are taking a real risk with "kids on board"!

 

 

 

 

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I hope you don't feel flamed. I think we try to maintain some level of civility on this board though I must comment that Mr. Avery has me confused with some other person he met aboard SD. I don't think I had ever heard of CC until I met the lovely Mrs. Avery and her spouse on our 2nd SD voyage. So sorry about Mr. Avery's memory loss. When you retire and move to SCW in Arizona, it's an inevitable consequence. To get back on topic, we too have had a couple of well behaved youngsters on all of our SD voyages, except my 4 crossings which were child free(adult behavior was another story/ but what happens on a crossing stays on a crossing) But it seems that when more than a few chilren are on board, they form a "pack" and unless the parents monitor, behavior deteriorates to the lowest level. I'd be happy if SD would just enforce the behavior rules and get tough with the parents.

 

FT

[frequent traveler]

I guess there must be some legal eagles out there - yes, you !

Your fellow/potential Sea Dream passengers/ lovers NEED YOU ! (you maybe have'nt posted before: it's real easy) please explain (think you are explaining this to a seven year old: oh, the irony !)

 

IS THERE A LEGAL CASE AGAINST SEA DREAM FOR THIS DECEPTION IN THE PROMOTION OF THEIR PRODUCT & THE ACTUALITY

 

It seems we are nearing the end of the road on this one; leaving only the un-thinkable.........

 

No, no legal case. And when my children were 7 yrs. old , the reason was "because I said so." Now for the legalese, Even if SD was subject to the FTC or most state laws on deceptive trade practices (which IMHO it isnt, maritime law and country of flagging controlling I think, but please correct me if wrong) AND still using marketing materials saying 52, 54, 56, or however many couples with the addition of the Admiral's Suite several years ago, I don't think any of us have posted evidence of SD ever expressly guaranteeing an adults only cruise or yachting experience. Pretty pictures of only adults don't suffice (maybe they can revise the postcards they leave as a gift on the bed one night to include one with a family at a Champagne Splash).

 

FT

 

I'm sure it doesn't matter to SD but our next 2 big holidays will be spent on non SD trips. Before last year we would be on that Dec 28 voyage. Not now. If it includes the large family group that was on 2 last Christmas, be prepared for general rowdiness.

Edited August 29, 2013 by frequent traveler

[Jim Avery]

I hope you don't feel flamed. I think we try to maintain some level of civility on this board though I must comment that Mr. Avery has me confused with some other person he met aboard SD. I don't think I had ever heard of CC until I met the lovely Mrs. Avery and her spouse on our 2nd SD voyage. So sorry about Mr. Avery's memory loss. When you retire and move to SCW in Arizona, it's an inevitable consequence. To get back on topic, we too have had a couple of well behaved youngsters on all of our SD voyages, except my 4 crossings which were child free(adult behavior was another story/ but what happens on a crossing stays on a crossing) But it seems that when more than a few chilren are on board, they form a "pack" and unless the parents monitor, behavior deteriorates to the lowest level. I'd be happy if SD would just enforce the behavior rules and get tough with the parents.

 

FT

Now, now FT. Let us look at the evidence. Your second SeaDream voyage (and ours) was March, 2005 aka: The Kid Trip From He**. Exhibit A: You met us at the TOY Bar at the beginning of that March, 2005 trip. Exhibit B: Your join date on Cruise Critic was March, 2005, shortly after the KTFH. Exhibit C: Your husband (ZQVOL) has 11,692 posts on Cruise Critic! And you had never heard of Cruise Critic??:eek: Exhibit D: Ageist comments about memory loss can incurr Class Action suits.:eek: You have been such a kid magnet over the years, no wonder you are confused. The Prosecution rests.:D:D

[frequent traveler]

Now, now FT. Let us look at the evidence. Your second SeaDream voyage (and ours) was March, 2005 aka: The Kid Trip From He**. Exhibit A: You met us at the TOY Bar at the beginning of that March, 2005 trip. Exhibit B: Your join date on Cruise Critic was March, 2005, shortly after the KTFH. Exhibit C: Your husband (ZQVOL) has 11,692 posts on Cruise Critic! And you had never heard of Cruise Critic??:eek: Exhibit D: Ageist comments about memory loss can incurr Class Action suits.:eek: You have been such a kid magnet over the years, no wonder you are confused. The Prosecution rests.:D:D

 

And ZQ Vol's join date on CC was also March 2005 - AFTER the Easter debacle. We first sailed on SD with a company charter a year or two earlier. Again, so sorry for the failing memory. I don't know Lois does it;)

FT

[Jim Avery]

And ZQ Vol's join date on CC was also March 2005 - AFTER the Easter debacle. We first sailed on SD with a company charter a year or two earlier. Again, so sorry for the failing memory. I don't know Lois does it;)

FT

 

I think you need a holiday, FT. And Lois? She is a lucky, lucky girl. :eek::D

[cburger100]

This is well put. have your heard anything from SeaDream??

[Jim Avery]

This is well put. have your heard anything from SeaDream??

 

Hi Cburger. Not sure who you are asking. :D