Flying Air France

[Alaskanb]

Always pack a Thermarest pad and lumbar cushion --makes the world of difference :)

[packed&ready!]

I have flown with AF multiple times but always in business. They are ok as an airline but CDG airport is a nightmare and I avoid connecting there at all costs.

 

I agree that most economy seating is pretty awful these days. We generally choose Delta because of the reasonable fee to upgrade to Economy Comfort which is more bearable.

 

The worst seats we ever had in economy were on Lufthansa last year. It was on one of their Airbus 330 and my husband literally had to climb onto my seat (I was on the aisle) to get out to use the lavs when the passenger in front of him was in full recline.

 

We were on an Airbus to CDG , coach and it was a torture! I vowed never to book coach again, but coming home on an early flight on a Boeing 777, I was surprised at the cushy seat. I didn't mind that too much. As we got older we tried premium economy, just made sure it was a 777. We loved it. Didn't lay flat but I never sleep anyway. I got so used to CDG not picking us up for wheelchair service that I didn't wait and jumped on a bus for the terminal I needed. Wrote a big letter to AF while on that plane at the stewardess request and the last time we flew that route there were chairs lined up ready and waiting for us and others. After transporting us in the chairs they put us on buses and we made our flight. Now I prefer AF, I know my way around and I am comfortable flying in and out of CDG, I don't want to fly anything overseas but a 777 . You just can't tell the stewardess you need assistance. You have to call Saphir, the service from AF.

 

Bon Voyage

[jsmac3]

An off-the-subject question, but since there are so many knowledgeable posters here, I thought I'd ask. We have TSA approved luggage locks. Is there anything compatible in Europe - are procedures the same as far as locking your luggage?

[Jbird81]

Since you are from Canada I can say this and you can probably relate....Air France makes Air Canada look like the worst airline on the planet (which in my opinion is...anyways). You'll be fine on Air France, it's our choice of airline for european flights.

[ducklite]

An off-the-subject question, but since there are so many knowledgeable posters here, I thought I'd ask. We have TSA approved luggage locks. Is there anything compatible in Europe - are procedures the same as far as locking your luggage?

 

Don't bother to lock your luggage. If a thief wants to get into it they will--even if means slashing the case open to do so. Use cable ties to keep zippers closed or a luggage strap.

[slidergirl]

Don't bother to lock your luggage. If a thief wants to get into it they will--even if means slashing the case open to do so. Use cable ties to keep zippers closed or a luggage strap.

 

The other thing I use are split-ring key rings. I thread them between the zipper pulls. Pain to put on, and a pain to take off. I have some with colored webbing attached to them - makes IDing my bags easier, too.

 

I will use a TSA lock on my carry-on - I want to force any potential TSA clerk-theives to wait for me to be there when they rummage through my bag. Outside of the US, I will just do my usual carabiners on my carryon/purse, just like I do in everyday life.

[Lookingforfacts]

I am bringing a travel yoga mat with me, and will use that for padding if need be. It's a better option than paying more for the seat because someone else considers flipping on the TV to be an Olympic sport.

 

There is an article in the WSJ (October 23) entitled the Incredible Shrinking Plane Seat" Airlines are removing most of the padding so they can not only squeeze in an extra row but also an extra seat per row. It's no longer just a case of weight. Shoulder size is a factor. Width of the arm rests are being reduced. Aisle width is being reduced so passengers on an aisle seat get hit by the cart if they lean out.

 

What's interesting is the "solutions" being implemented . Bigger screens. More in flight entertainment. More frequent meals and snacks. Distract the passengers from the seats.

 

I suspect someone slightly overweight may have more natural "padding" and have less of an issue then I had.

 

I thought the internet reports were all hype until I got to experience it. I even paid extra for Delta economy plus.

 

Don't bother to lock your luggage. If a thief wants to get into it they will--even if means slashing the case open to do so. Use cable ties to keep zippers closed or a luggage strap.

 

I sometimes think locked luggage, and expensive "status" luggage suggests there might be something worth stealing inside.

 

Question. Do you have a copy of your one bag packing on a website somewhere? I'd like to share it and it would be easier if it was in a document, or pdf format. Your techniques should also help a person who's having trouble with just one checked bag.

[ducklite]

There is an article in the WSJ (October 23) entitled the Incredible Shrinking Plane Seat" Airlines are removing most of the padding so they can not only squeeze in an extra row but also an extra seat per row. It's no longer just a case of weight. Shoulder size is a factor. Width of the arm rests are being reduced. Aisle width is being reduced so passengers on an aisle seat get hit by the cart if they lean out.

 

What's interesting is the "solutions" being implemented . Bigger screens. More in flight entertainment. More frequent meals and snacks. Distract the passengers from the seats.

 

I suspect someone slightly overweight may have more natural "padding" and have less of an issue then I had.

 

I thought the internet reports were all hype until I got to experience it. I even paid extra for Delta economy plus.

 

 

 

I sometimes think locked luggage, and expensive "status" luggage suggests there might be something worth stealing inside.

 

Question. Do you have a copy of your one bag packing on a website somewhere? I'd like to share it and it would be easier if it was in a document, or pdf format. Your techniques should also help a person who's having trouble with just one checked bag.

 

Sorry, I don't have it anywhere else.

 

 

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[FlyerTalker]

There is an article in the WSJ (October 23) entitled the Incredible Shrinking Plane Seat" Airlines are removing most of the padding so they can not only squeeze in an extra row but also an extra seat per row.

Perhaps on some wide-body aircraft, but for the VAST majority of flights, that is not going to happen. And even for wide-bodies, it's the 777 and 747 that can take the extra seat in the row. Not a 767 or 330/340.

 

There are going to be SEVEN abreast on a 737?? Ha!!

 

A bit of scare-mongering I'd say.

 

And, don't forget....if you buy just on price, you're part of the cause for this situation.

Edited October 28, 2013 by FlyerTalker

[Lookingforfacts]

Perhaps on some wide-body aircraft, but for the VAST majority of flights, that is not going to happen. And even for wide-bodies, it's the 777 and 747 that can take the extra seat in the row. Not a 767 or 330/340.

 

There are going to be SEVEN abreast on a 737?? Ha!!

 

A bit of scare-mongering I'd say.

 

And, don't forget....if you buy just on price, you're part of the cause for this situation.

 

According to the article....for 20 years the standard configuration for the 777 was 9 across. Last year 70% were for 10 across. In 2012 only 15% were 10 across.

 

10 airlines are ordering the A330 with 9 15.7" seats, instead of the 8 it was designed for.

 

I paid extra for economy comfort. The seat was very uncomfortable. Willingness to pay may not be enough.

[Lookingforfacts]

Too late to edit my last post. Airbus is suggesting a minimum seat width of 18". Part of this is suspect. A lot of Boeing planes have 17" seats. Airbus is seeking a competitive advantage.

 

The article cites research which shows the extra inch improves sleep quality by over 50%.

 

This what's changed over the years:

 

1. significantly fewer empty middle seats
   
2. increase in the number of long flights (12+ hours)
   
3. increasing size of passengers
   

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-events-single/detail/airbus-calls-on-aviation-industry-to-set-a-new-standard-for-long-haul-comfort/

[ducklite]

Too late to edit my last post. Airbus is suggesting a minimum seat width of 18". Part of this is suspect. A lot of Boeing planes have 17" seats. Airbus is seeking a competitive advantage.

 

The article cites research which shows the extra inch improves sleep quality by over 50%.

 

This what's changed over the years:

 

1. significantly fewer empty middle seats
   
2. increase in the number of long flights (12+ hours)
   
3. increasing size of passengers
   

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-events-single/detail/airbus-calls-on-aviation-industry-to-set-a-new-standard-for-long-haul-comfort/

 

Again, the airline is not responsible for the increasing size if passengers. That one is on the passenger. Period.

 

 

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[Mura]

Ducklite,

 

Do bear in mind that many of us (even the overweight ones) are complaining more about pitch between rows than we are about the width of the seats.

 

But I saw the report on how well people slept in 18" seats as opposed to the 17" seats, and the people I saw were a "normal" size. Some were tall, but none were fat as far as I could tell -- it was a brief scene. However, it was clear that people in the 17" seats were far more restless than those in 18" seats.

 

And, again, distance between the rows enters into this equation as well.

 

Mura

[ducklite]

Ducklite,

 

Do bear in mind that many of us (even the overweight ones) are complaining more about pitch between rows than we are about the width of the seats.

 

But I saw the report on how well people slept in 18" seats as opposed to the 17" seats, and the people I saw were a "normal" size. Some were tall, but none were fat as far as I could tell -- it was a brief scene. However, it was clear that people in the 17" seats were far more restless than those in 18" seats.

 

And, again, distance between the rows enters into this equation as well.

 

Mura

 

Pitch is easily solved by buying exit rows, bulkheads, premium economy, etc. I spent an extra $50 on extra legroom seats MCO to SJU r/t. A small price for the extra room. Most people don't want to spend a cent more than they absolutely have to, and so airlines are giving them exactly what the people want. Cheap tickets.

 

 

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[Mura]

Okay, and I do spend for premium economy and biz air these days. I didn't when I was younger.

 

But not everyone can afford the extra bucks.

 

No need for a war just because we seem to disagree.

 

Mura

[ducklite]

Okay, and I do spend for premium economy and biz air these days. I didn't when I was younger.

 

But not everyone can afford the extra bucks.

 

No need for a war just because we seem to disagree.

 

Mura

 

They claim they can't afford the small up charge but take three cruises a year, drive an expensive car, budget $100 or more per day for gambling, have $100 per day bar tabs, the list goes in. It's a matter of priorities, and the airlines are offering what people want, extremely low priced economy tickets.

 

Various carriers have tried offering more space at a slightly higher ticket price, but passengers have howled and gone to other carriers to save $20. So the carriers went back to the original model. They are listening to the flying public who is obviously willing to forgo space in order to save a few dollars.

 

 

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[Mura]

My last comment because clearly further conversation is fruitless.

 

You seem to be painting everyone with the same brush. Sure, there are people who are as you describe.

 

There are others who are not.

 

Mura

[ducklite]

My last comment because clearly further conversation is fruitless.

 

You seem to be painting everyone with the same brush. Sure, there are people who are as you describe.

 

There are others who are not.

 

Mura

 

Flying is a want, not a need--the exception is business travelers who if they fly regularly are sitting in business or first on free upgrades. If passengers want to be more comfortable, they need to pay for that choice. Otherwise they might be better off considering other options, such as Greyhound or Amtrak.

 

 

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[twoputt.plusone]

Otherwise they might be better off considering other options, such as Greyhound or Amtrak.

 

 

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Charming. :rolleyes:

[celtic selkie]

Flying is a want, not a need--the exception is business travelers who if they fly regularly are sitting in business or first on free upgrades. If passengers want to be more comfortable, they need to pay for that choice. Otherwise they might be better off considering other options, such as Greyhound or Amtrak.

 

I personally hitchhike to the cruise terminal. None of those skinny airline seats for this gal.:rolleyes:

 

celtic

[xpcdoojk]

Snort!!!!:d

 

jc

[StretchamI]

Looks like it's about time for the gloves to come off. Personally, I'd rather fly in the cattle car and be uncomfortable for a while than to be seated next to some people:rolleyes:

Stretch

[Alaskanb]

Looks like it's about time for the gloves to come off. Personally, I'd rather fly in the cattle car and be uncomfortable for a while than to be seated next to some people:rolleyes:

Stretch

I am a Stretch also

[ducklite]

Charming. :rolleyes:

 

People want both more space and cheap tickets. You can't have both, airlines are not charities, they are businesses that are expected by their shareholders to make a profit. Until their market research finds that they can't fill seats because passengers are paying more to fly on an airline that provides more space, they have no reason to change their business model. It's already been proven that passengers prefer the status quo, smaller space in order to have smaller prices. Those who want more space find the cash to upgrade.

 

As to the sad fact that people are getting larger, this is not the responsibility of the carrier. As someone who bothers to eat healthy and find the time to get some form of exercise for at least an hour a day in order to keep my weight in check, I find it difficult at best to have sympathy for those who don't bother and then complain about seats being tight.

 

Far too many who are complaining they can't afford to upgrade have two and three cruises a year in their signature. Perhaps they need to adjust their priorities if the smaller seat space is such a problem for them.

 

 

 

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[4774Papa]

People want both more space and cheap tickets. You can't have both, airlines are not charities, they are businesses that are expected by their shareholders to make a profit. Until their market research finds that they can't fill seats because passengers are paying more to fly on an airline that provides more space, they have no reason to change their business model. It's already been proven that passengers prefer the status quo, smaller space in order to have smaller prices. Those who want more space find the cash to upgrade.

 

As to the sad fact that people are getting larger, this is not the responsibility of the carrier. As someone who bothers to eat healthy and find the time to get some form of exercise for at least an hour a day in order to keep my weight in check, I find it difficult at best to have sympathy for those who don't bother and then complain about seats being tight.

 

Far too many who are complaining they can't afford to upgrade have two and three cruises a year in their signature. Perhaps they need to adjust their priorities if the smaller seat space is such a problem for them.

 

 

 

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While I concur with most of these remarks, how a person decides to spend their travel dollars is theirs. I am a large person that eats health and exercises, yet find some airline seats uncomfortable for long trips.

 

If you are a linebacker for an NCL team, regular coach seats won't cut it, but you could probably afford to pay for Business. There are some people that eat healthy and exercise and are just large frame people don't do well in coach seating.

 

We usually upgrade to economy comfort on long flights, like from the US to China or Australia, but don't for shorter flights within the US.

 

The best coach seats we have found were on Virgin Australia, which had more leg room and a special mechanism allowing for a significant recline.

 

I understand that airlines have to make a profit. Airfares are much cheaper considering inflation than they were decades ago. However, once an airline cuts the size of the seat down too much, I will find another airline. Right now, the seats on Delta and United aren't that bad. Just hope they don't get smaller.