B2B2B not allowed??

[chengkp75]

Thanks to all for your input - cc is a great resource & so many helpful people.

 

After calls from our TA in Sydney to Miami & a separate response via email with RC office in Sydney, the answer is...... YAY - we are allowed to do this.

 

From the email I have extracted the below (there was some stuff about using our NCC's and cabin slections etc).

 

So we are doing it!

 

Good afternoon Neil,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

Rhapsody of The Seas

29th August 2014

5th September 2014

16th September 2014

 

You will be permitted to do the above 3 Back to Back cruises as your journey starts in Seattle (US) and finishes in Sydney (Aus). Im not sure why you would have been advised you would not be able to do this itinerary.

The rule you are referring to is the US Jones Act.

 

The Jones Act isa US Marine law that prevents guests from embarking a ship in one US port and disembarking in a different US port without first visiting a foreign distant port. Canada is not considered a foreign distant port. The rule does not apply if there are consecutive sailings on different vessels.

 

 

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.

 

Kind regards

 

Cruise Administration

 

While they got the gist of it right, their details are incorrect. As someone else pointed out, it is the PVSA not the Jones Act that applies to passenger carriage. The fact that you are staying on the vessel for the entire trip from Seattle to Sydney means that it is treated as ONE voyage, from a US port to a foreign port. This type of voyage is neither "closed loop" (from one US port back to the same US port) nor "open loop" (from one US port and disembarking in another US port). It is a foreign voyage that starts in a US port, and ends in a foreign port. The statement about consecutive voyages on different vessels has nothing to do with your situation, and I'm not sure it is even correct.

[celle]

While they got the gist of it right, their details are incorrect. As someone else pointed out, it is the PVSA not the Jones Act that applies to passenger carriage. The fact that you are staying on the vessel for the entire trip from Seattle to Sydney means that it is treated as ONE voyage, from a US port to a foreign port. This type of voyage is neither "closed loop" (from one US port back to the same US port) nor "open loop" (from one US port and disembarking in another US port). It is a foreign voyage that starts in a US port, and ends in a foreign port. The statement about consecutive voyages on different vessels has nothing to do with your situation, and I'm not sure it is even correct.

 

They got the important bit right! The proposed itinerary for the OP is legal, as it will be Seattle to Sydney.

 

As we see here on CC, confusion between the Jones Act and the PVSA is extremely common. Combine the intent of the two acts and you can simply learn that a foreign-flagged (not US) ship cannot take passengers or cargo between two US ports, without calling at some intervening "far distant" foreign port.

 

Best wishes, OP - it's a brilliant itinerary!

Edited November 26, 2013 by celle

[cruisenfever]

Without a 24 hour stop over in Vancouver, your itinerary is illegal. Don't bank on anything that a TA tells you without written documentation from the cruise line or US CBP.

David

You don't need a 24 hour stop. When RCI used to do their R/T from San Diego to Hawaii, a 2 hour "service" stop in Ensenada was all that was needed to comply with the PVSA act.

[sjb317]

You don't need a 24 hour stop. When RCI used to do their R/T from San Diego to Hawaii, a 2 hour "service" stop in Ensenada was all that was needed to comply with the PVSA act.

 

We did that on our Celebrity cruise last year and I really don't understand how Ensenada could be considered a "distant foreign port" but Canada is not?

 

Sherri:)

[wrp96]

We did that on our Celebrity cruise last year and I really don't understand how Ensenada could be considered a "distant foreign port" but Canada is not?

 

Sherri:)

 

In a round trip cruse you only need a foreign port, not a distant foreign port, so a stop in Mexico (or Canada) works for a round trip.

[barryg9999]

Have you tried calling RCCL?

[Paulette3028]

Without a 24 hour stop over in Vancouver, your itinerary is illegal. Don't bank on anything that a TA tells you without written documentation from the cruise line or US CBP.

David

 

What does "US CBP" stand for? Please when you use an abbreviation, make sure that everyone understands what it is.

[chengkp75]

You don't need a 24 hour stop. When RCI used to do their R/T from San Diego to Hawaii, a 2 hour "service" stop in Ensenada was all that was needed to comply with the PVSA act.

 

That was changed, and now the cruise lines have to advertise Ensenada as a port call, and allow passengers to go ashore there, so no more midnight port calls to get the paperwork stamped.

[chengkp75]

In a round trip cruse you only need a foreign port, not a distant foreign port, so a stop in Mexico (or Canada) works for a round trip.

 

Yes, again, a "closed loop" cruise (starts and ends at the same US port) only requires a foreign port call, not a "distant" foreign port. This allows the Caribbean cruises to operate, as the only "distant" ports in the Caribbean are the "A,B,C" islands. An "open loop" cruise, which starts in one US port and ends in another US port, requires a stop in a "distant" foreign port, which means South America or the "A,B,C" islands.

[chengkp75]

What does "US CBP" stand for? Please when you use an abbreviation, make sure that everyone understands what it is.

 

CBP is Customs and Border Protection, the new name for Customs and Immigration services which were joined when Homeland Security was formed.

[CRUZBUDS]

We wanted to do a Seattle to Vancouver and the next cruise was Vancouver to San Diego -- it was not allowed. We were told the total trip is what is looked at, not individual legs. YMMV :)

 

Remember -- you're dealing with the government -- normal common sense does not apply ;)

[chengkp75]

What does "US CBP" stand for? Please when you use an abbreviation, make sure that everyone understands what it is.

 

CBP is Customs and Border Protection, the new name for Customs and Immigration services which were joined when Homeland Security was formed.

[cynt]

I'm glad it worked out for you. That sounds like an AWESOME CRUISE!! I need more vacation days!!:D

[steveru621]

We wanted to do a Seattle to Vancouver and the next cruise was Vancouver to San Diego -- it was not allowed. We were told the total trip is what is looked at, not individual legs. YMMV :)

 

Remember -- you're dealing with the government -- normal common sense does not apply ;)

 

Probably the most 'sensible' post I've seen in a long time.

 

Question, if I went online and booked all three cruises separately who is going to catch me?

[chengkp75]

Probably the most 'sensible' post I've seen in a long time.

 

Question, if I went online and booked all three cruises separately who is going to catch me?

 

Well, lets see. If you managed to convince the cruise line's booking department that you were not a B2B, then you would have to get off the ship at each disembark port, and go through the whole check-in process again. The cruise lines are also required to give passenger lists to CBP listing embarking, disembarking and remaining passengers. Much as I like to belittle the federal bureaucracy, I do believe they would twig to the fact that the same people are getting off and getting back on the same day. The computers would take the credit for that, not the drones at the desks. Especially when you are going to do it twice, between the first/second, and second/third legs.

 

But as I've said, why worry? It is a perfectly legal cruise under PVSA. Now, the first two legs alone would not be, but that isn't the case here.

[John Henry on CC]

[quote name='chengkp75']Well, lets see. If you managed to convince the cruise line's booking department that you were not a B2B, then you would have to get off the ship at each disembark port, and go through the whole check-in process again. The cruise lines are also required to give passenger lists to CBP listing embarking, disembarking and remaining passengers. Much as I like to belittle the federal bureaucracy, I do believe they would twig to the fact that the same people are getting off and getting back on the same day. The computers would take the credit for that, not the drones at the desks. Especially when you are going to do it twice, between the first/second, and second/third legs.

But as I've said, why worry? It is a perfectly legal cruise under PVSA. Now, the first two legs alone would not be, but that isn't the case here.[/quote]

I like you. ;)

[TravelerThom]

I can't find the thread now, but a couple of years ago someone was doing the reverse (Sydney-Honolulu-Vancouver-Seattle). They too thought they had it straightened out, but shortly before arriving in Vancouver they were informed they would be disembarked in Vancouver. Despite what many on this thread are claiming I think the government treats each specific cruise in conjunction with any {NOT ALL} other cruises when they determine if it is allowable. Getting back to your case, if you have done Seattle to Vancouver, you could then have a port stop in Honolulu going from Vancouver to Sydney ONLY if no one is scheduled to disembark there. I wouldn't count on this being allowed prior to actually completing the voyage (but there is a slight chance that common sense might prevail, but you are dealing with "the government"). By far the safest thing to do would be to travel from Seattle to Vancouver by land or air, and board there. Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean that "they" are not out to get you.:rolleyes:

Thom