Are cruise lines cutting back??

[Blk_Amish]

Making less profit and revenues so why continue to build monstrosities. Each line is coming out with a bigger class of ship, even Princess. Were they more profitable with smaller ships but higher quality that cost more. Why the monstrosities of the sea.

 

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Edited December 11, 2013 by Blk_Amish

[Moviegirlnyorlando]

Making less profit and revenues so why continue to build monstrosities. Each line is coming out with a bigger class of ship, even Princess.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Forums mobile app

 

I think they are discovering profit in volume

 

Less service, bigger ships, more people. It's the way of capitalism

 

Of you want to pay for the QE2 you can get the service of traditional cruise lines ppbit let's face it most of us can afford more and more of these cruises now for cutting costs

 

Same goes for buying at Walmart because it's cheaper. You will get Chinese made products and long lines at the cashiers, but walmart super centers are going up everywhere

 

 

 

Cruising is no longer for the rich. People on modest incomes can afford cruises now.

 

We can't have it both ways

[middlehaitch]

I have enjoyed this thread no end.

Blk_Amish, sail 7seas loved your conversations. I don't know most of the restaraunts you talk of, but do know of the fast food places that are ubiquitous in most countries. I only eat McD's when on a road trip and there is no other option but decided one day (while visiting the UK) that I was going to try their basic burger in every country I visited; just to see if they tasted different. I gave up after 2 countries - boring quest.

I do thoroughly understand the need for children to have comfort food as well as local food while travelling .

I take it the removal of table linens doesn't mean the French polished mahogany table tops have been exposed.

I think if the OP doesn't know how to entertain her/himself he/she is going to have a problem on Celebrity as it is slanted much more towards the independent (for want of a better word) traveller.

I like Celebrity food and wish they offered smaller portions so I could enjoy more varieties of it. I have wondered if I could have the appetizer and soup or salad at early seating, the entre at select seating, and desert, cheese plate and coffee at late seating. There again there is no accounting for taste, as has been stressed throughout this thread.

Thank you all for a good read.

Cheers, h.

[BruceMuzz]

Making less profit and revenues so why continue to build monstrosities. Each line is coming out with a bigger class of ship, even Princess. Were they more profitable with smaller ships but higher quality that cost more. Why the monstrosities of the sea.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Forums mobile app

 

You have it completely wrong.

The American Wal-Mart business model has taken over the cruise industry.

 

Oasis of the Seas alone currently makes more money - and profit - than other entire cruise lines that have as many as 15 smaller ships.

[mr green]

Perhaps the original question on this thread SHOULD have asked:

 

"Are cruise passengers cutting back?"

 

The answer is a definite YES.

 

Today's average cruise passenger pays less for the cruise, and spends far less money once onboard.

 

But operating a cruise ship costs more and more every year.

 

Cruise lines then make less revenue and less profit.

 

So they have less money to spend on passenger perks and amenities.

 

That's when the cruise lines are forced to cut back.

 

Are cruise passengers cutting back? Yes, and I think with good reason. In our first few years of cruising, we paid what seemed to me, a fair price for a very good product, however now it seems that a lower price is being charged, for what seems to be a much poorer product, BUT with added costs at every turn.

To me going on a cruise is now of a matter of 'Us versus Them', in a word trying to keep the hidden costs to a reasonable amount.

One time I complained about the cost of a bottle of wine, [i come from a wine area], the reply, 'Well sir, you ARE on a cruise ship'. 'Nough said'.

 

john

[navybankerteacher]

Making less profit and revenues so why continue to build monstrosities. Each line is coming out with a bigger class of ship, even Princess. Were they more profitable with smaller ships but higher quality that cost more. Why the monstrosities of the sea.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Forums mobile app

 

The simplest answer is: economy of scale. The highest paid staff are the engineering and deck personnel, who actually run the ship - the same number can handle a 5,000 passenger ship as one carrying 1,000. Even the hotel and food service departments are more " efficiently" manned when serving many more. Finally the fuel cost per passenger is much less on a mega-ship.

[Blk_Amish]

I think they are discovering profit in volume

 

Less service, bigger ships, more people. It's the way of capitalism

 

Of you want to pay for the QE2 you can get the service of traditional cruise lines ppbit let's face it most of us can afford more and more of these cruises now for cutting costs

 

Same goes for buying at Walmart because it's cheaper. You will get Chinese made products and long lines at the cashiers, but walmart super centers are going up everywhere

 

 

 

Cruising is no longer for the rich. People on modest incomes can afford cruises now.

 

We can't have it both ways

 

How about maintaining a certain standard and heavens for bid tradition. I might be able to get something cheaper at Wal-Mart but if I have to wait an hour in line, that add to the cost of the product. Well, assuming one values their time. Sometimes I walk into Wal-Mart and think, not today, not worth it, but the same for cruising. The same thing for Black Friday, not worth the added cost of my time. I am sure there are people who enjoy the mainstream lines that would be willing to pay a bit more and see certain standard/table cloths maintained. Even if families were prepare to pay for the QE2, I am going to assume Carnival kids program might be better. Unless there is another line with the limbo, rocking disco and tablecloths, some might be stuck with Carnival.

 

OP- we must recognize that we are getting nicer ships with more bells and whistles, since ports seem to be more and more secondary to cruising. Maybe they are just cutting differently, but away from what old folks like myself are used to, table clothes and unforgettable meals.

[Blk_Amish]

Perhaps the original question on this thread SHOULD have asked:

 

"Are cruise passengers cutting back?"

 

The answer is a definite YES.

 

Today's average cruise passenger pays less for the cruise, and spends far less money once onboard.

But operating a cruise ship costs more and more every year.

 

Cruise lines then make less revenue and less profit.

 

So they have less money to spend on passenger perks and amenities.

 

That's when the cruise lines are forced to cut back.

 

I was responding to this post, I should have quoted it back with the reply:D:)

For me the cheaper the cruise the greater my on board spending (pics, drinks, soda card, pics, arcades games, soda card, pics). I spend more on a cruise on Carnival than I do RCL. More on a cruise with my kids than as a couple.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Blk_Amish

[BruceMuzz]

I was responding to this post, I should have quoted it back with the reply:D:)

For me the cheaper the cruise the greater my on board spending (pics, drinks, soda card, pics, arcades games, soda card, pics). I spend more on a cruise on Carnival than I do RCL. More on a cruise with my kids than as a couple.

 

"For me" is where you are going wrong.

Mass Market cruising is not designed for you and doesn't cater to you.

It is designed to appeal to the masses.

 

You may spend more on a cheaper cruise - but MOST of the masses do not.

In fact it is exactly the opposite.

 

Cruise lines no longer make a profit selling cruises. In fact, we often sell them at a loss. Please do not advise me to change the system - that decision is above my pay grade.

We only make a profit selling things to passengers once they get onboard.

 

Cheaper cruises appeal mostly to people who cannot afford the more expensive ones.

Most of these people have no money.

Many of them spend a lot of time on Cruisecritic, trying to cut their onboard spending even further.

 

The cheaper the cruise, the lower the onboard spending - hence the lower the onboard revenues and the lower the onboard profits.

On cheaper cruises, the only way the cruise lines can make a profit is through massive cost cutting.

[Ethel5]

OK I just gotta ask....what are they using in place of table cloths? Surely not the bare particle board. :eek:

[Blk_Amish]

"For me" is where you are going wrong.

Mass Market cruising is not designed for you and doesn't cater to you.

It is designed to appeal to the masses.

 

You may spend more on a cheaper cruise - but MOST of the masses do not.

In fact it is exactly the opposite.

 

Cruise lines no longer make a profit selling cruises. In fact, we often sell them at a loss. Please do not advise me to change the system - that decision is above my pay grade.

We only make a profit selling things to passengers once they get onboard.

 

Cheaper cruises appeal mostly to people who cannot afford the more expensive ones.

Most of these people have no money.

Many of them spend a lot of time on Cruisecritic, trying to cut their onboard spending even further.

 

The cheaper the cruise, the lower the onboard spending - hence the lower the onboard revenues and the lower the onboard profits.

On cheaper cruises, the only way the cruise lines can make a profit is through massive cost cutting.

 

Thanks, make sense:D

 

How do we say goodbye to what they had - tablecloths.

I know where this road is going - no more towel animals

All I know is what they had - great food and comfi beds

If we get to see tomorrow - more cutbacks

But forever gone away- the young at heart

It's hard to say goodbye - to tradition

 

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[BruceMuzz]

Thanks, make sense:D

 

How do we say goodbye to what they had - tablecloths.

I know where this road is going - no more towel animals

All I know is what they had - great food and comfi beds

If we get to see tomorrow - more cutbacks

But forever gone away- the young at heart

It's hard to say goodbye - to tradition

 

 

I agree with you completely.

 

What's "traditional" cruising?

I started cruising (working on ships) in the 1970's.

 

In 1973, a 7-day cruise on my ship in a standard outside cabin (there were no balconies) cost US$ 3,500 per person. That was the same price as a new Buick automobile.

 

Everyone was well dressed, well traveled, well spoken, well educated, well behaved.

Most of my guests had traveled around the world multiple times; many were multi-lingual.

We had towel animals for children - but not for adults.

Nearly every night was formal might. We never saw people wearing denims or bathrobes in public.

We never had discussions about the merits of American Fast Food, because my guests didn't eat that sort of thing.

Nobody ever complained about the price of anything.

The average tip per person per day was $25. In those days $25 was quite a bit of money.

 

Real "traditional dining" was the only way we did it. This meant that you had a table reserved just for your cabin for every day for the voyage. You could dine at any time and stay as long as you liked, because we were not feeding you in early and late shifts (factory-style) like we do today.

We had no television, no internet or wifi, no broadway-style shows, very few entertainers, one tiny swimming pool, no art auction, a tiny spa, a tiny gym, no jogging track, no childrens center, no alternative restaurants, very limited room service.

 

We did have one major problem. All the ladies brought their furs to wear every night. But we never had enough refrigerated storage lockers to properly store all the furs. Some of our guests got very upset that we could not properly look after their furs every week. This was our #1 complaint nearly every week.

Today the #1 onboard complaint is the price of a Coca-Cola.

 

That was MY traditional cruising. And it is long gone - never to return.

Unless I get to charge you today the price of a new Buick Automobile for a 7-day cruise.

If you will pay me $35,000 for a one week cruise, I can guarantee you would have everything and more that we offered in the "good old days".

Edited December 12, 2013 by BruceMuzz

[jeph]

To add to BruceMuzz and navybankerteacher's points: We now have multiple cruise lines being overseen by one corporation, saving some administrative costs; multiple ships being built to the same basic design, sometimes even to the point where the same design is shared by different lines, (like Cunard and Holland America, or Carnival and Costa) saving on design costs-- apart from something like QM2, precious few ships built today are a "one-off".

 

All these, and the use of mostly tipped "frontline" service crew, replacing the union labor of the ocean liner era, (due to overtime, a late-night room-service hamburger delivered free of charge to a passenger on the SS United States was said to cost the line 75 bucks!) are the real reasons cruises can be marketed at such low prices now-- yes, "cutbacks" and "nickel-and-diming" have increased a bit over the last few years, but that's just pennies on the dollar.

 

And as other posters have mentioned, a lot of good things have been added-- like standard cabins that are much more spacious, balconies becoming pretty much the norm, better beds, multiple specialty restaurant options, far more professional entertainment, elaborate gyms, and so on. The value for the vacation dollar is remarkable. And nobody's making anyone buy those overpriced photos or art-auction items!;)

Edited December 12, 2013 by jeph

[Blk_Amish]

That was MY traditional cruising. And it is long gone - never to return.

".

 

MY biggest cruising tradition was when getting there was half the fun. Sunday best was what I wore and other passengers told me how lucky I was to be able to cruise while I was younger. You were sad to leave the food behind but happy to get the first bite of a regular meal. No matter how much you paid for another vacation, at upper end all inclusive resorts, nothing else could truly compare.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Blk_Amish

[Sipsey]

 

Nobody ever complained about the price of anything.

 

The That was MY traditional cruising. And it is long gone - never to return.

Unless I get to charge you today the price of a new Buick Automobile for a 7-day cruise.

If you will pay me $35,000 for a one week cruise, I can guarantee you would have everything and more that we offered in the "good old days".

 

Sounds like "the more things change the more they stay the same" emphatically does NOT apply to cruising.

 

It also sounds like "traditional cruising" was only for the wealthy and the top of the upper middle class.

 

I guess I didn't even know what cruising was until the "Love Boat" made me dimly aware of it. Then my parents went on some, and I became more aware. But it wasn't until my kids left home that I could afford even a Carnival cruise. To me the lowliest ship in the fleet seemed like a luxury vacation at the time. I guess it's all in your frame of reference.

[Gloria Mundi]

The simplest answer is: economy of scale. The highest paid staff are the engineering and deck personnel, who actually run the ship - the same number can handle a 5,000 passenger ship as one carrying 1,000. Even the hotel and food service departments are more " efficiently" manned when serving many more. Finally the fuel cost per passenger is much less on a mega-ship.

 

We've cruised only on a line with small ships (<100 passengers) and, while we love it, the economics are totally different. For the 2 of us in a nondescript, tiny outside cabin it's $5-6,000 for a 7-day cruise within Alaska. We knew what we were getting going in: up close and personal with nature, very good food but not infinite variety and not 24/7 (although DH got a personal tour of the kitchen and the chef's recipe for chewy chocolate ginger cookies when he was hanging out in the lounge with a bout of insomnia), etc. Our jammies were not folded into animals. The emphasis was on wildlife and the local culture. Our bill for extras (other than gratuities) was $140. That included alcohol. We liked it so much we're going again next year but it's clearly not for everybody.

 

BruceMuzz, thanks for that perspective. Like the airline industry, the cruise industry has really gone after people seeking low prices. You get what you pay for.

[Gunner22aa]

You seemed pretty dead set against sailing Princess ever again. What changed your mind? I now see you posting on our rollcall for a 28 day trip pondering if you are going to take it or not.

[sail7seas]

We've cruised only on a line with small ships (<100 passengers) and, while we love it, the economics are totally different. For the 2 of us in a nondescript, tiny outside cabin it's $5-6,000 for a 7-day cruise within Alaska. We knew what we were getting going in: up close and personal with nature, very good food but not infinite variety and not 24/7 (although DH got a personal tour of the kitchen and the chef's recipe for chewy chocolate ginger cookies when he was hanging out in the lounge with a bout of insomnia), etc. Our jammies were not folded into animals. The emphasis was on wildlife and the local culture. Our bill for extras (other than gratuities) was $140. That included alcohol. We liked it so much we're going again next year but it's clearly not for everybody.

 

BruceMuzz, thanks for that perspective. Like the airline industry, the cruise industry has really gone after people seeking low prices. You get what you pay for.

 

 

Those booking suites cruise after cruise after cruise can easily be spending $1,000 per diem on some itineraries.

 

NOT EVERYONE is cruising for short money and those paying the higher rates in upper category cabins have to decide if they are getting value for their dollar...still? Some things, for some long term loyal cruisers, do not have a dollar value and are 'priceless'. We sail to see friends we've had for years. They live a certain number of months a year on ships and that is where we get to visit with them. Price of cabin becomes far less relevant in such circumstance. That is not to say the diminishing comforts and treats we have become accustomed to are not missed. The quality of the menu offerings disturb me more than some other things. Also the cutback in staffing is very obvious and it bothers us to see how hard the remaining crew has to work to get the job done. How much can one expect from so many fewer doing the work many more used to do?

 

 

Edited December 13, 2013 by sail7seas

[jeph]

I've noticed this as well. While I continue to receive outstanding service in nearly all areas onboard-- a level that seems what could only be expected of a five-star property ashore-- I can see that the crew are being stretched thinner than was the case years ago.

 

And if you can do the simplest math, it's not hard to see why: the crew numbers of the recent megaships may have doubled, but lower-berth (two to a cabin) passenger capacity has more like TRIPLED. Behind-the-scenes automation can only go so far, and these people's jobs are more exhausting than ever.

 

That's why, no matter how we may be tempted to complain about cutbacks and slipping standards, it is more important than ever to BE PATIENT with the service staff and to treat them with RESPECT AND COURTESY-- you would NOT want to trade places with them!

Edited December 13, 2013 by jeph

[navybankerteacher]

Cut backs have been a way of life in virtually all service-related areas. I can recall morning and afternoon mail deliveries, for example. Everything in life evolves, but it is important to focus on the positive changes as well as the negatives. Strictly on point: how many of us could afford to cruise at all if prices (adjusted for inflation) remained at 1950's levels?

 

We retain the ability to pay premium fares if we want premium service, so where is the absolute loss? I, for one, believe that I get very good value for my cruising dollar, so I will continue to cruise. Of course, if I am presented with choices as minor as paying more for a line which still has table linen in the MDR - I will surely do so. If it is true that Carnival now has bare tables, they will have a hard time selling me on their version of "the cruise experience" - just as NCL's "Freestyle" has left me cold. To each his own; I only hope that a few mass market lines (meaning within my budget) retain the essential critical mass of amenities to attract me. If I have to go " upscale". So be it - it just means fewer sailing opportunities.

[Ethel5]

You seemed pretty dead set against sailing Princess ever again. What changed your mind? I now see you posting on our rollcall for a 28 day trip pondering if you are going to take it or not.

 

For someone who couldn't find a sandwich or yogurt for lunch, she would not be happy on a 28 day cruise.

 

BTW, I did this cruise last March and loved it. Try to get on a private "Blue Hawaii" snorkel tour-absolutely the best.....and yes, I still loved it after getting sea sick!!!

[mr green]

Cut backs have been a way of life in virtually all service-related areas. I can recall morning and afternoon mail deliveries, for example. Everything in life evolves,

 

Off topic, but have you heard that wihin 5 years Canada will be doing away with ALL residential door to door mail?

Back on topic I read a couple of years ago that some cabin stewards prefer to do more, smaller rooms, since they claim that they get more tips.

 

john

[CaroleSS]

OT....if Canada is anywhere near the US in postal service, we might beat you! Amazon is talking about using drones to deliver packages!

 

With more and more people using electronic communications, postal service might go away with the buggy whip!

 

If you (cabin stewards) are paid by the "piece", I'd want to do the most easy pieces that I could to maximize my pay. Can't blame anyone for wanting to make the most in the shortest amount of time.

 

Cutbacks are, alas, inevitable. If you doubt that, check the ounces in your favorite cereal (or other item). Companies have kept prices the same, but reduced the amount in the box. It's happening everywhere, not just cruise lines. :(

Edited December 14, 2013 by CaroleSS
Auto correct.ahhhhhhhh

[mr green]

OT....if Canada is anywhere near the US in postal service, we might beat you! Amazon is talking about using drones to deliver packages! :(

 

I literary can't see that getting off the ground. Just think of all the things that they might hit.

If you want a real 'cut back', years ago my bank would give $5.00 to any person who stood in line for more than 5 minutes, it quit doing so about 15 years ago! I used to go at a busy time.:cool:

I believe that I mentioned earlier, on my last cruise, our room steward, though very very good, was not always 'prompt'. He did 17 rooms!

 

john

[Gunner22aa]

Not doing away with residential service but rather delivery right to your door. Over 60% of Canadians don't have service to their door right now but rather to a box within a block of your home where about 25-30 homes go to collect their mail. Each has their own small box and if you get a parcel there are bigger common boxes on the bottom. If you have a parcel the key to the big box is left in your personal one. When finished with the key you drop it in the mail slot. I see it as a great thing considering how far in debt our postal service is at the moment