Ten Years From Now...... HAL

[casamariposa]

I was on the Veendam in 1999 when she lost two engines just as we were approaching the Panama Canal. Engineers from Fincantieri were boarded when we were going through the middle lock. Even before that, work was being done on the ship as we sailed, we were told by Lloyd's. People complain about no A/C. In this case the A/C was so cold we almost elected to sleep on deck! The captain said that it was inexcusable that a ship so new should have so many problems!

 

I will say, I've spent a lot of time on the Maasdam without nearly the problems we faced on two Veendam trips. But I agree that it's time to cut the relationship with Fincantieri, and I now choose to sail on the oldest ship on the line that was built, I believe, by wonderful shipbuilders in Finland.

[cruisemom42]

The BIG Questions that has been repeated time and time again on this board and I personally have witness is what you underlined "Well Maintained" The Question is.... Is HAL ships Well Maintained.... I personally beg to differ or at least compared to other lines. It is sad that a ship such as the Volendam has not had any of the new enhancements and is the last ship to get any money spent on her. Where other ships in the fleet had these new dry goods on them 5 years ago. Do you really feel that HAL ships are Well Maintained :confused: We as cruisers do not really see what is behind the scenes. With the major CUT BACK in crew, there would also be cut back in crew that can keep up the maintenance don't you think...... Definitely some words for thought here...

 

I should have made myself clearer. My point in underscoring well-maintained is because it is an important part of the equation that HAL needs to pay attention to.

 

I don't need luxury, I don't need a "retreat" from the rest of the riff-raff (:rolleyes:), but I do need to know when I board the ship that whether I am in an inside cabin or a suite that my plumbing and air conditioning will work as they should.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I should have made myself clearer. My point in underscoring well-maintained is because it is an important part of the equation that HAL needs to pay attention to.

 

I don't need luxury, I don't need a "retreat" from the rest of the riff-raff (:rolleyes:), but I do need to know when I board the ship that whether I am in an inside cabin or a suite that my plumbing and air conditioning will work as they should.

 

OK I am confused I am understanding you to say you do not need any luxury and that I can understand but are you also saying the HAL ships are well maintained with good working plumbing and air conditioning :confused:

I guess that is why I am bragging about NCL because you seldom see anyone complaining about their a/c and plumbing.

Personally I do not foresee HAL correcting this issue till they also start investing more money into having more crew, giving better service and YES adding more luxury to the suite amenities. They all kind of go hand in hand. Sadly cut backs have been in ALL areas and if money gets invested into maintenance to make sure plumbing and A/C is working they will need more crew and will need to spend more money on the old ships. The question is have they waited too long to get control of the problems ;)

[cruisemom42]

OK I am confused I am understanding you to say you do not need any luxury and that I can understand but are you also saying the HAL ships are well maintained with good working plumbing and air conditioning :confused:

I guess that is why I am bragging about NCL because you seldom see anyone complaining about their a/c and plumbing.

Personally I do not foresee HAL correcting this issue till they also start investing more money into having more crew, giving better service and YES adding more luxury to the suite amenities. They all kind of go hand in hand. Sadly cut backs have been in ALL areas and if money gets invested into maintenance to make sure plumbing and A/C is working they will need more crew and will need to spend more money on the old ships. The question is have they waited too long to get control of the problems ;)

 

I don't know how I can be more clear.

 

SUMMARY: I would be willing to see HAL lose out in the area of being more "upscale" if it means areas not available to everyone onboard ship. BUT they need to pay attention and at least guarantee that their ships are well maintained and that their systems work as they should.

 

Clear enough?

[sail7seas]

Havens and the like are a step backward to Class separations on ships.

I'm not saying whether that is good or bad but making an observation.

 

Perhaps it's okay for people who pay so much more to get much more?

Those who pay for first class are financing those in coach.

A high level manager for AA once said to me he/she wasn't much concerned if they had empty seats in coach if first class was full. I grant that was a few years ago but the point is the same.

 

Some Class separation is likely returning to cruise ships. IMO

[kazu]

Havens and the like are a step backward to Class separations on ships.

I'm not saying whether that is good or bad but making an observation.

 

Perhaps it's okay for people who pay so much more to get much more?

Those who pay for first class are financing those in coach.

A high level manager for AA once said to me he/she wasn't much concerned if they had empty seats in coach if first class was full. I grant that was a few years ago but the point is the same.

 

Some Class separation is likely returning to cruise ships. IMO

 

WOW is all I can say.

 

I guess you are going back years ago. Planes need to be full and so do cruise ships.

 

Ideally full price at suites and/or first class, but it doesn't always happen as we have seen or experienced.

 

And certainly, sorry they are not paying the freight for the rest of the ship or the plane any more. Those times have long passed.

[Lizzie68]

WOW is all I can say.

 

I guess you are going back years ago. Planes need to be full and so do cruise ships.

 

Ideally full price at suites and/or first class, but it doesn't always happen as we have seen or experienced.

 

And certainly, sorry they are not paying the freight for the rest of the ship or the plane any more. Those times have long passed.

 

I cannot imagine the post was meant as a serious comment. Them there coach passengers is why many cruise lines are still in business.;)

[sail7seas]

deleted

sorry

Edited August 16, 2014 by sail7seas

[Copper10-8]

...........................The ship was a beat up rust bucket. That is as direct a statement I can say.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

If SADM was a '"beat up rust bucket" when you sailed her, the USCG would have her chained down in a U.S. port unable to sail anywhere, so let's keep it real svp

[UPNYGuy]

Statendam was in deplorable condition. I'm certain she is better now... But I'm not the only one that feels she is the weakest of the fleet ;)

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[cbr663]

Havens and the like are a step backward to Class separations on ships.

I'm not saying whether that is good or bad but making an observation.

 

Perhaps it's okay for people who pay so much more to get much more?

Those who pay for first class are financing those in coach.

A high level manager for AA once said to me he/she wasn't much concerned if they had empty seats in coach if first class was full. I grant that was a few years ago but the point is the same.

 

Some Class separation is likely returning to cruise ships. IMO

 

What is the Neptune Lounge on HAL if it isn't a class separation? Doesn't it meet the very definition of separation with only those in certain cabins get access?

 

I have to disagree with your assertion that those in first class are financing those in coach. On a HAL ship, for instance, the amount that you pay has absolutely nothing to do whether you have access to the Neptune Lounge. Access is determined by cabin category, period. Many, many people, much to your displeasure as you have repeatedly noted on this board, pay very little sometimes to travel in Neptune suites and still have access to the lounge.

 

Also, the belief that those that pay more are more profitable for the cruise lines is simply erroneous. Space on a cruise ship is very limited and precious and when priced per square foot, the most expensive cabins tend to be inside cabins and ocean views with Neptune Suites actually being priced the lowest per square foot.

[navybankerteacher]

What is the Neptune Lounge on HAL if it isn't a class separation? Doesn't it meet the very definition of separation with only those in certain cabins get access?

 

I have to disagree with your assertion that those in first class are financing those in coach. On a HAL ship, for instance, the amount that you pay has absolutely nothing to do whether you have access to the Neptune Lounge. Access is determined by cabin category, period. Many, many people, much to your displeasure as you have repeatedly noted on this board, pay very little sometimes to travel in Neptune suites and still have access to the lounge.

 

Also, the belief that those that pay more are more profitable for the cruise lines is simply erroneous. Space on a cruise ship is very limited and precious and when priced per square foot, the most expensive cabins tend to be inside cabins and ocean views with Neptune Suites actually being priced the lowest per square foot.

 

It's hard to figure who pays more than their share on ships - but on air it is certain that a first class passenger subsidizes coach passengers. They might have five times the space, but their weight is the same (a key factor) and their fare is generally well more than five times as much as that of the average coach passenger. The one exception was the SST's flown by BA and Air France, which never operated profitably, and were therefore subsidized by the regular aircraft.

 

Of course, both first class and coach are needed to justify flying the plane (or sailing the ship) at all.

[iancal]

Does it really matter?

 

The only thing that matters to me is what price I pay. We don't care what others pay for various cabins.

 

Business models change over time. The suggestion that Business class pays for a flight and economy is 'gravy' makes no sense. You only have to fly on a regular basis to see that-notice the business/economy seat ratio and how many are crammed into economy. Not to mention the huge revenues from baggage charges.

 

From our perspective HAL has a real challenge.. Their ships are old. The ships are getting more difficult to maintain. Things like plumbing and HVAC have reduced efficiency and are both very expensive and time consuming to repair/replace. Additional cabins have been added to some ships-over and above the original engineering spec furthering these challenges. It costs more to operate older ships with older technology-not to mention ongoing maintenance.

 

Then add the fact that HAL has one new ship on the way, two going out. And one or two that are on the block but they cannot seem to sell for their asking price. The balance represents the oldest fleet of all mass market lines. That can only spell a problem on the P&L, the maintenance, and the customer satisfaction fronts.

Edited August 16, 2014 by iancal

[navybankerteacher]

It is likely that in the near to mid term HAL's fleet will shrink as the R and S class ships are sold /retired. Depending upon how they fare with their newer core (I'm inclined to discount the "Disasterdam" posts) they may evolve into a smaller player - both in terms of ship size and fleet size - which is not necessarily bad - everyone does not have to cater to the "monster of the seas" customer base --- and there may, in fact, simply not be that large a customer base to support as many HAL ships as in the past.

 

I, for one, would rather see them "right size" than watch them try to compete with Royal Caribbean and NCL.

[sail7seas]

changed my mind

sorry

Edited August 16, 2014 by sail7seas

[iancal]

That is the way it is in the travel industry. Inventories of ship cabins, airline seats, hotel nights have a very limited shelf life.

 

Why shouldn't the vendor blow out all remaining inventory at whatever price. It is incremental revenue with little incremental cost. Strictly business.

 

Do you have the same issue if you buy a coat at the end of the season, that previously sold for $1000. and is now discounted to $400?

 

We are waiting for our TA to call back in order to book a cruise within the final payment window. We were willing to wait, our schedules are flexible. We were not willing to book at the higher prices. If this was your business, would you sell that cabin for less money or give up the revenue entirely? We also know that the cabin may be discounted even further but the price hit our personal 'sweet spot' and we can get one way air home at a very attractive price. So we will not be at all disappointed if someone gets the same category at a lower price one month from now. But, we never discuss what we pay for a cruise when we are actually on it.

 

On any given flight, there are probably ten or fifteen different fare levels. That is how supply and demand works.

Edited August 16, 2014 by iancal

[Lizzie68]

changed my mind

sorry

 

Good decision. I read it.;)

[iancal]

That is the way it is in the travel industry. Inventories of ship cabins, airline seats, hotel nights have a very limited shelf life.

 

Why shouldn't the vendor blow out all remaining inventory at whatever price. It is incremental revenue with little incremental cost. Strictly business.

 

Do you have the same issue if you buy a coat at the end of the season when there is limited size availabity, that previously sold for $1000. and is now discounted to $400?

 

We are waiting for our TA to call back in order to book a cruise within the final payment window. We were willing to wait, our schedules are flexible. We were not willing to book at the higher prices. If this was your business, would you sell that cabin for less money or give up the revenue entirely? We also know that the cabin may be discounted even further but the price hit our personal 'sweet spot' and we can get one way air home at a very attractive price. So we will not be at all disappointed if someone gets the same category at a lower price one month from now. But, we never discuss what we pay for a cruise when we are actually on it.

 

Personally, we do not see the big deal with the Neptune lounge access other than aspirational. We have not been in it but the photos seem not very different from the executive level lounges in business hotels that we have experienced. So for us, the value is not really present.

Edited August 16, 2014 by iancal

[sail7seas]

What is the Neptune Lounge on HAL if it isn't a class separation? Doesn't it meet the very definition of separation with only those in certain cabins get access?

 

<snip>

.

 

 

Yes, the Neptune Lounge is a separation on a very small level.

 

I see the Haven as a large progression of such circumstance. Most on the ship don't know about Neptune Lounge, those who do mostly don't care, it is of small significance and doesn't really impact very many. Haven on the other hand raises separation to a much higher level.

 

I see it as a progression into more and more of such separations and headed back to Cunard's way of separate dining rooms and the like. When you start with separate lounges, staff, pools, whole areas of the ship, you are bringing separation front and center.

 

Neptune is insignificant in comparison.

 

[sail7seas]

Good decision. I read it.;)

 

I had expressed myself poorly and was giving a message other than what I meant. It wasn't worth the effort, to me, to reword or rewrite it. It was simply easier to delete it and not get into that conversation. It doesn't interest me enough to bother. :)

 

[kazu]

Yes, the Neptune Lounge is a separation on a very small level.

 

I see the Haven as a large progression of such circumstance. Most on the ship don't know about Neptune Lounge, those who do mostly don't care, it is of small significance and doesn't really impact very many. Haven on the other hand raises separation to a much higher level.

 

I see it as a progression into more and more of such separations and headed back to Cunard's way of separate dining rooms and the like. When you start with separate lounges, staff, pools, whole areas of the ship, you are bringing separation front and center.

 

Neptune is insignificant in comparison.

 

 

I think this is why there have been a number of posts about suite amenities on the boards and that HAL is behind actually. We hear a lot of fans of NCL in the suite category. Their suites are normally sold out and upsells are extremely rare - quite a contrast to HAL where there may often be vacancies and upsells. :confused: Not endorsing a class system, but what NCL does seems to be popular.

[sail7seas]

I think this is why there have been a number of posts about suite amenities on the boards and that HAL is behind actually. We hear a lot of fans of NCL in the suite category. Their suites are normally sold out and upsells are extremely rare - quite a contrast to HAL where there may often be vacancies and upsells. :confused: Not endorsing a class system, but what NCL does seems to be popular.

 

 

Yes. Separation is happening in the cruise industry and where it is happening 'successfully' (however one defines that), it will continue and possibly grow.

[kazu]

Yes. Separation is happening in the cruise industry and where it is happening 'successfully' (however one defines that), it will continue and possibly grow.

 

I think the cruise lines consider sold out cabins at their price point early on a success:D

[iancal]

You cannot get away from class separation.

 

When I travelled for business, I travelled business class air, used the airport lounges. Also stayed on executive level at hotels w/ full access to lounge.

 

Now that we are retired, it is economy air, lowest price hotel, neither with lounge access.

 

Not an issue for me/us. Do not resent it. Understand that the carriers need to do this.

 

These perks cost money and people get to choose based on the value that they perceive.

Edited August 16, 2014 by iancal

[sail7seas]

If they didn't have people paying for these upscale accomodations, they would disappear. Some business expense accounts are now more limited while others are still very generous.

 

Supply and demand. If people/businesses were not booking and paying for those comforts and conveniences, they wouldn't be offered. There seems to be a market, stiil, for them but, of course, you point is well taken. The comforts/extras become less important to many of us later in life. When are life is more leisurely, the airport lounge doesn't matter as much, at least not to me.

 

It appears there are more comfort and convenience areas appearing on more ships, there must be people who want them and are paying for them. They seem to fill up, rather quickly, so there are enough that have their own reasons for paying those sums to have those accommodations and the cruise lines are providing the choice. I strongly suspect we will see more; not less. I also think we will see more on Pinnacle ship than we have yet seen on HAL.

'

Edited August 16, 2014 by sail7seas