Tipping w.no drink package

[Scotchick]

Of course there are a top level of restaurants where the waiters stay for life and make a ton of money. Old established steak houses like Peter Lugers or very high end places come to mind. But, in most places, waitstaff is poorly paid and make probably in the $25k range. I would bet that is around average for a FT waiter.

 

Whether the system is wrong or broken is a different debate. You don't take it out on the waiters doing the job under the current system because you don't like the system.

 

In general, across the US ( yes, even in Queens!), 15% is a standard tip.

 

You are totally missing the point. We are trying to help these lowly paid workers. Sometimes, you have to stand UP and be counted in order to actually make changes and help in the long run. I suppose it is a difficult concept for some people, but if enough people stand up to injustice, I believe change can occur.

[conandrob240]

Stand up how? By refusing to tip the poor schmo making $2.35 per hour. Yeah, that'll show that restaurant owner! You go get 'em!

[luddite]

 

You have clearly illustrated what a broken and unfair system you are defending. Anyone with a social conscience should be working towards eliminating this stupid and unfair system of remuneration for low-paid workers.

 

(

 

If life was fair, we wouldn't have needed someone to invent wheelchairs.

 

In the end, there is no justice. There is just us.

[sparks1093]

Of course there are a top level of restaurants where the waiters stay for life and make a ton of money. Old established steak houses like Peter Lugers or very high end places come to mind. But, in most places, waitstaff is poorly paid and make probably in the $25k range. I would bet that is around average for a FT waiter.

 

Whether the system is wrong or broken is a different debate. You don't take it out on the waiters doing the job under the current system because you don't like the system.

 

In general, across the US ( yes, even in Queens!), 15% is a standard tip.

 

$25k a year equates to $12 per hour presuming a 40 hour week. While one certainly wouldn't want to make that in the twilight of their career that's not bad as starting wages.

[sparks1093]

You are totally missing the point. We are trying to help these lowly paid workers. Sometimes, you have to stand UP and be counted in order to actually make changes and help in the long run. I suppose it is a difficult concept for some people, but if enough people stand up to injustice, I believe change can occur.

 

Thing is this- what if the people that are actually working for tips don't want the change? I am sure there are some that would love to see the system change, but I doubt that it's a majority. I am not willing to fight a battle that the ones involved don't want to fight on their own (especially if they happen to like the system they are working under). (And just because someone is working for tips that doesn't mean that they are "lowly paid". I know a number of people that have made/make a decent living by working for tips and in some cases they were making more than I as a white collar, salaried worker made.)

 

And while the system may appear to be archaic and broken and feudal or whatever the system does work if everyone does their part and leaves a tip for the service that they receive.

Edited November 28, 2014 by sparks1093

[sparks1093]

I'm sorry if this post is a little off topic, but I was discussing this thread with a friend of mine who is a manager in a very popular restaurant in New Orleans where customers typically tip 18 to 20%.

 

He remarked to me "I wonder if many of these people would tip this much if they knew the waiter made more money than they do". He said his main 6 waiters all make well into 6 figures a year. :eek:

 

I do not consider what a person makes when I leave a tip- if they have earned a tip from me then I provide it. I imagine over the years that I have tipped many people who made more than I did at that moment in time and they still received at least 15%, unless there was something sub-par with the service.

[maywell]

$25k a year equates to $12 per hour presuming a 40 hour week. While one certainly wouldn't want to make that in the twilight of their career that's not bad as starting wages.

 

It depends where tho - $25k in Manhattan is poor while the same amount is good living wage in Mississippi. It really is all about where and how much to tip - 15% is recommend but not the true gold standard amount in the US; it is for tipping for drinks on a cruise line but not really for the rest of US. Like I said, in other parts of the US, people tip $2-5 per person especially when the meal for 4 is like under $50 or $15 for 2 - people know that waiters / waitresses make little money and/or put up with other customers stupid antics; so people tend to over tip the supposed it '15% standard'.

 

 

Is the system broken? Yes, its completely broken over here in the US. So broken in fact that you see waiters / waitresses working the same job for 10-20+ years because the income from tips is that damn good even with cost of the restaurant meal for 6 people being $70. (15%= $10.5, $2-5 per person =$12-$30). Gotta remember, some of us Americans are probably the most generous people when it comes to saying 'Thank you for putting up with shtick/bs' when it comes to paying for services especially meals. Will it ever get fixed here? Probably never as long you have people dining out along with paying big tips and waitstaff accepting it with a huge happy smiling 'Thank you, sir / madam' .......

[maywell]

Again, not European. And where did you see me coming out against NCL's tipping practices?

 

Well, France is in the continent of Europe and your location does says 'France'. So if not European, then French or Expat. But you have to remember that couple of British / English (someone corrected me for calling him British from England, lol) have also commented negatively about overall tipping policies on cruise lines and the US. And in some cases, even their fellow British / English called them cheap for not paying at least $1 or the Euro / pound equivalent to the bartender on the cruise ship for making /pouring their drink.

 

Unless you are drinking that heavily without the Drink plan plus didn't add money to your account for the automatic 15% tipping - $1-2 or the Euro / pound equivalent for an $5.75 or $8 drink is not going to kill you. If it does, no offense, maybe you need to rethink about drinking on a cruise ship. *shrug*

[hawkeyetlse]

Well, France is in the continent of Europe and your location does says 'France'. So if not European, then French or Expat. But you have to remember that couple of British / English (someone corrected me for calling him British from England, lol) have also commented negatively about overall tipping policies on cruise lines and the US. And in some cases, even their fellow British / English called them cheap for not paying at least $1 or the Euro / pound equivalent to the bartender on the cruise ship for making /pouring their drink.

That should be sufficient proof that all "Europeans" don't hold the same opinions and they don't automatically deserve the mindlessly dismissive contempt conveyed by Beaver's posts.

 

I have no problem paying the recommended tips when I cruise, and I have never encouraged others to remove them here on Cruise Critic. However, as long as these charges are classified as "tips" or "gratuities", I strongly believe that passengers should have the right not to pay them. Again, I am not in support of removing tips. But I am against mandatory tipping.

 

Now, someone who removes their tips just to make a point, or just out of cheapness, deserves all the scorn in the world heaped upon them. And double the scorn if they try to hide behind their "culture" to justify their cheapness. But the "cultural" nonsense goes both ways: making a point of overtipping (and bragging loudly about it), as many North Americans do, is often just as ridiculous and distasteful as stubbornly tipping below the customary amount.

[maywell]

That should be sufficient proof that all "Europeans" don't hold the same opinions and they don't automatically deserve the mindlessly dismissive contempt conveyed by Beaver's posts.

 

I have no problem paying the recommended tips when I cruise, and I have never encouraged others to remove them here on Cruise Critic. However, as long as these charges are classified as "tips" or "gratuities", I strongly believe that passengers should have the right not to pay them. Again, I am not in support of removing tips. But I am against mandatory tipping.

 

Now, someone who removes their tips just to make a point, or just out of cheapness, deserves all the scorn in the world heaped upon them. And double the scorn if they try to hide behind their "culture" to justify their cheapness. But the "cultural" nonsense goes both ways: making a point of overtipping (and bragging loudly about it), as many North Americans do, is often just as ridiculous and distasteful as stubbornly tipping below the customary amount.

 

 

If it tips / gratuities were instead called service tax/ fee / charge - you and others from different countries would still moan, *bleep* and complain about it. No offense, its either one thing (pay it) or the other (don't); it can't be both at the same thing.

 

The 15% charge on drink is already mandatory because it already automatically charged on your bill and sail card - all you have to do is sign off on it. Don't like that it automatically charged already? Then don't drink with cruise line that does that or bring your own wine, pay the corkage fee on it and you can drink it anywhere. If the cruise line(s) in your country doesn't allow you bring your own wine; no offense, so not our problem here in the Americas.

 

Regarding us bragging about tipping big - If you got the money to pay for good service from a hard working person trying to make ends meet, either flaunt it loud or be humble brag about it. If can't pay the meal and the tip, then don't dine out at restaurants with waitstaff; there's plenty of restaurants in the US with without waitstaff. Don't like McDonalds, Chipotle, Pret Manager, Starbucks and the like? Again, so not our problem you don't want to pick up your own food to your table and toss out your own garbage when you're done. Again, one thing or the other, can't have both at the same time.

[sjbdtz]

That should be sufficient proof that all "Europeans" don't hold the same opinions and they don't automatically deserve the mindlessly dismissive contempt conveyed by Beaver's posts.

 

I have no problem paying the recommended tips when I cruise, and I have never encouraged others to remove them here on Cruise Critic. However, as long as these charges are classified as "tips" or "gratuities", I strongly believe that passengers should have the right not to pay them. Again, I am not in support of removing tips. But I am against mandatory tipping.

 

Now, someone who removes their tips just to make a point, or just out of cheapness, deserves all the scorn in the world heaped upon them. And double the scorn if they try to hide behind their "culture" to justify their cheapness. But the "cultural" nonsense goes both ways: making a point of overtipping (and bragging loudly about it), as many North Americans do, is often just as ridiculous and distasteful as stubbornly tipping below the customary amount.

 

 

Okay, I'll buy your argument. And, you're in LUCK! They are NOT classified as either tips, OR gratuities.

 

They are classified as a Service Charge. There is an optional Gratuity line on the slip, if you choose to add anything additional.

 

The charge is one for the service (as opposed to the beverage itself). Having owned a restaurant, I can assure you that with only a 15% charge for the service, you are getting off lightly.

 

My budget allocated just over 30% for staffing.

 

 

 

Stephen

 

 

.

[triptolemus]

Okay, I'll buy your argument. And, you're in LUCK! They are NOT classified as either tips, OR gratuities.

 

They are classified as a Service Charge. There is an optional Gratuity line on the slip, if you choose to add anything additional.

 

The charge is one for the service (as opposed to the beverage itself). Having owned a restaurant, I can assure you that with only a 15% charge for the service, you are getting off lightly.

 

My budget allocated just over 30% for staffing.

 

 

 

Stephen

 

 

.

 

Sorry, but the receipt says "auto gratuity" not service charge. Please don't confuse the DSC with the 15% auto gratuity which appears on drink orders.

[hawkeyetlse]

They are NOT classified as either tips, OR gratuities.

It's labelled "AUTOGRATUITY" on the charge slip, and everything in NCL's documentation refers to it as a 15% gratuity. Maybe this is too high, maybe it's too much, maybe it's just right: that is beside the point. Or maybe that is exactly the point: if it's a gratuity, it's up to me to decide how much I give. As I said above, I don't mind them recommending 15%, I don't mind them automatically adding 15%, and I don't mind paying 15%. But if someone wants to give less, they absolutely should have the right to. (And then all of you absolutely have the right to dump on them, but then you all knew that already.)

[maywell]

It's labelled "AUTOGRATUITY" on the charge slip, and everything in NCL's documentation refers to it as a 15% gratuity. Maybe this is too high, maybe it's too much, maybe it's just right: that is beside the point. Or maybe that is exactly the point: if it's a gratuity, it's up to me to decide how much I give. As I said above, I don't mind them recommending 15%, I don't mind them automatically adding 15%, and I don't mind paying 15%. But if someone wants to give less, they absolutely should have the right to. (And then all of you absolutely have the right to dump on them, but then you all knew that already.)

 

And like I said, if the 15% tips/gratuities for a drink tab were called service charge/fee/tax instead- you and everyone else in countries that don't pay tips at bars and full service restaurants would still complain, moan and *bleep* about it.

[maywell]

I don't think that's true. Speaking just for the UK and France, it is common practice for menus to announce a 10% to 15% service charge (added to the bill in the UK, already incorporated in the menu prices in France), and people pay that without *bleep*ing. So the labels do matter.

 

 

You have a problem paying a automatic 15% tip but don't mind paying a automatic 15% service charge which is basically the same thing with a completely different name. Am I getting that right? :rolleyes:

[hawkeyetlse]

You have a problem paying a automatic 15% tip but don't mind paying a automatic 15% service charge which is basically the same thing with a completely different name. Am I getting that right? :rolleyes:

I have already said several times that I have no problem paying the automatic 15% tip, so no, you are not getting that right.

[maywell]

I have already said several times that I have no problem paying the automatic 15% tip, so no, you are not getting that right.

 

You say that but yet:

 

Personally I was interested to learn that you could reduce/remove the 15% auto-tip on the charge slip they give you to sign. I wouldn't do it myself, but I have always wondered how they could get away with calling this a gratuity if it was obligatory. I am now waiting to hear someone say they bought the UBP but removed the 15% gratuity (because they "prefer to tip in cash" :rolleyes:).

 

We have no proof for most statements and personal anecdotes that people post on this site. Do you have proof that the 15% auto-gratuity cannot be removed? I don't have any particular agenda, and I don't mind paying the 15%, but if it's actually obligatory I do object to them continuing it to call it a "gratuity". I don't mind them adding it automatically to all bar orders, and I don't expect them to make it easy to reduce/remove it, but I do feel like it should be possible to do so.

 

 

I have no problem paying the recommended tips when I cruise, and I have never encouraged others to remove them here on Cruise Critic. However, as long as these charges are classified as "tips" or "gratuities", I strongly believe that passengers should have the right not to pay them. Again, I am not in support of removing tips. But I am against mandatory tipping.

 

 

Your own words - I just remove the fluff. Tips / Gratuities in the US/Cruise lines is called service charges in your country. The only difference is in the US, the customer has more leeway in how much tip to pay i.e: can tip $10 on a $30 meal or none at all if the service was extremely bad, if they wanted to. In your country its already included in the price or in case of the UK, it tacked on the receipt automatically. Basically, you're tipping whether you want/like it or not, its just called a different name.

 

So in other words you rather the 15% charge on the drink tab be called service charge and not tip/gratuities, even though both are one and the same, just different names in different countries. Sheesh, and you call us Americans bad.....

Edited November 29, 2014 by maywell

[SteveH2508]

You say that but yet:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your own words - I just remove the fluff. Tips / Gratuities in the US/Cruise lines is called service charges in your country. The only difference is in the US, the customer has more leeway in how much tip to pay i.e: can tip $10 on a $30 meal or none at all if the service was extremely bad, if they wanted to. In your country its already included in the price or in case of the UK, it tacked on the receipt automatically. Basically, you're tipping whether you want/like it or not, its just called a different name.

 

So in other words you rather the 15% charge on the drink tab be called service charge and not tip/gratuities, even though both are one and the same, just different names in different countries. Sheesh, and you call us Americans bad.....

 

By 'removing the fluff' and taking these quotes out of the context of the conversation, you did change their meaning.

 

Hawkeyetise was asking EWoodspark how they proposed to remove the extra 15% (let's call it an 'add-on' for the moment to avoid the semantic argument) and whether they had actually ever done so. The response was a deafening silence.

 

Hawkeyetise has stated in several posts that they do not remove the 'add-on' - they are arguing on your side.

[Trevor Fountain]

You say that but yet:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your own words - I just remove the fluff. Tips / Gratuities in the US/Cruise lines is called service charges in your country. The only difference is in the US, the customer has more leeway in how much tip to pay i.e: can tip $10 on a $30 meal or none at all if the service was extremely bad, if they wanted to. In your country its already included in the price or in case of the UK, it tacked on the receipt automatically. Basically, you're tipping whether you want/like it or not, its just called a different name.

 

So in other words you rather the 15% charge on the drink tab be called service charge and not tip/gratuities, even though both are one and the same, just different names in different countries. Sheesh, and you call us Americans bad.....

 

Let me dispel a myth. "In your country its already included in the price or in case of the UK, it tacked on the receipt automatically. Basically, you're tipping whether you want/like it or not, its just called a different name".

This is absolutely not the norm in the UK. It could possibly be in London, I never go there, so someone would need to enlighten us. However, dining in the UK does not have service charge automatically added to the bill. The exception being when you are a large party, say eight or over, then some Restaurants will add a service charge. It is not law, and is not enforceable, and if the party ask for it to be removed, then so be it, there is nothing the restaurant can do. I have seen groups have the SC removed. The main reason is not to get out of paying the gratuity, but they see it as the restaurant making extra money and perhaps not passing it on to the servers.

In a normal dining situation, 2-4 diners, the bill will arrive with the cost of the meal. If paying by card, when the server hands the card machine to the customer for them to enter their pin number, there is a question on the machine, would you like to add a gratuity yes/no. I believe most people enter no, preferring instead to leave a cash tip, knowing that is more certain to end up where it was intended.

What UK residents are not used to is being told how much they HAVE to tip.

Most of us are in fact very generous tippers, and certainly like to reward good service. If you have had particularly bad service, then a reduction in what you normally leave seems reasonable punishment for that poor service, and should serve as a reminder to the staff to improve.

By nature Brits do not complain. We don't have a culture whereby if our food doesn't arrive in 10 minutes you get it free, or of making a scene like a spoilt kid if things don't go according to plan. We elect to talk with our 'tips' or our feet.

Now at first I didn't get the cruise ship policy of mandatory service charge, and bar gratuity, but now I do, which is fine. As I have mentioned somewhere else on these boards "when in Rome, do as the Roman's do".

The constant arguing on here, and ridicule of individuals is plain wrong, derived from a misunderstanding of two cultures, but nonetheless neither, I believe more or less generous than the other (with obvious individual exceptions), just a different way of performing that generosity.

[maywell]

By 'removing the fluff' and taking these quotes out of the context of the conversation, you did change their meaning.

 

Hawkeyetise was asking EWoodspark how they proposed to remove the extra 15% (let's call it an 'add-on' for the moment to avoid the semantic argument) and whether they had actually ever done so. The response was a deafening silence.

 

Hawkeyetise has stated in several posts that they do not remove the 'add-on' - they are arguing on your side.

 

Here's everthing with the 'fluff' as you can see, I didn't really change the meaning of everything since it was already in separate paragraphs. And regarding Ewoodspark, he claims he's at some Spanish land resort the 1st few pages back, whether its true or not; honestly, its all meh to me.

 

But we're not. This is a discussion board about cruises and this specific thread is about tipping for drinks on board NCL. Can we now return to that topic, please?

 

Personally I was interested to learn that you could reduce/remove the 15% auto-tip on the charge slip they give you to sign. I wouldn't do it myself, but I have always wondered how they could get away with calling this a gratuity if it was obligatory. I am now waiting to hear someone say they bought the UBP but removed the 15% gratuity (because they "prefer to tip in cash" :rolleyes:).

 

We have no proof for most statements and personal anecdotes that people post on this site. Do you have proof that the 15% auto-gratuity cannot be removed? I don't have any particular agenda, and I don't mind paying the 15%, but if it's actually obligatory I do object to them continuing it to call it a "gratuity". I don't mind them adding it automatically to all bar orders, and I don't expect them to make it easy to reduce/remove it, but I do feel like it should be possible to do so.

 

That should be sufficient proof that all "Europeans" don't hold the same opinions and they don't automatically deserve the mindlessly dismissive contempt conveyed by Beaver's posts.

 

I have no problem paying the recommended tips when I cruise, and I have never encouraged others to remove them here on Cruise Critic. However, as long as these charges are classified as "tips" or "gratuities", I strongly believe that passengers should have the right not to pay them. Again, I am not in support of removing tips. But I am against mandatory tipping.

 

Now, someone who removes their tips just to make a point, or just out of cheapness, deserves all the scorn in the world heaped upon them. And double the scorn if they try to hide behind their "culture" to justify their cheapness. But the "cultural" nonsense goes both ways: making a point of overtipping (and bragging loudly about it), as many North Americans do, is often just as ridiculous and distasteful as stubbornly tipping below the customary amount.

[maywell]

Let me dispel a myth. "In your country its already included in the price or in case of the UK, it tacked on the receipt automatically. Basically, you're tipping whether you want/like it or not, its just called a different name".

This is absolutely not the norm in the UK. It could possibly be in London, I never go there, so someone would need to enlighten us. However, dining in the UK does not have service charge automatically added to the bill. The exception being when you are a large party, say eight or over, then some Restaurants will add a service charge. It is not law, and is not enforceable, and if the party ask for it to be removed, then so be it, there is nothing the restaurant can do. I have seen groups have the SC removed. The main reason is not to get out of paying the gratuity, but they see it as the restaurant making extra money and perhaps not passing it on to the servers.

In a normal dining situation, 2-4 diners, the bill will arrive with the cost of the meal. If paying by card, when the server hands the card machine to the customer for them to enter their pin number, there is a question on the machine, would you like to add a gratuity yes/no. I believe most people enter no, preferring instead to leave a cash tip, knowing that is more certain to end up where it was intended.

What UK residents are not used to is being told how much they HAVE to tip.

Most of us are in fact very generous tippers, and certainly like to reward good service. If you have had particularly bad service, then a reduction in what you normally leave seems reasonable punishment for that poor service, and should serve as a reminder to the staff to improve.

By nature Brits do not complain. We don't have a culture whereby if our food doesn't arrive in 10 minutes you get it free, or of making a scene like a spoilt kid if things don't go according to plan. We elect to talk with our 'tips' or our feet.

Now at first I didn't get the cruise ship policy of mandatory service charge, and bar gratuity, but now I do, which is fine. As I have mentioned somewhere else on these boards "when in Rome, do as the Roman's do".

The constant arguing on here, and ridicule of individuals is plain wrong, derived from a misunderstanding of two cultures, but nonetheless neither, I believe more or less generous than the other (with obvious individual exceptions), just a different way of performing that generosity.

 

 

I understand what your saying Trevor but in the case of Hawkeyetlse, he needs a eye opener since he basically paying automatic tips / gratuities in his native country but it called something completely different there compare to the US / cruise lines. That why I said, would he prefer the 15% tips / gratuities be called service charge / fee / tax instead, since he claims he has no problem paying service charges, but rather not pay the auto tips / gratuities on drink tab. And to me both the auto tips / gratuities and service charges are basically one and same just different names in different places.

[sparks1093]

I understand what your saying Trevor but in the case of Hawkeyetlse, he needs a eye opener since he basically paying automatic tips / gratuities in his native country but it called something completely different there compare to the US / cruise lines. That why I said, would he prefer the 15% tips / gratuities be called service charge / fee / tax instead, since he claims he has no problem paying service charges, but rather not pay the auto tips / gratuities on drink tab. And to me both the auto tips / gratuities and service charges are basically one and same just different names in different places.

 

In the three posts of his (or hers) that you quoted he said "Personally I was interested to learn that you could reduce/remove the 15% auto-tip on the charge slip they give you to sign. I wouldn't do it myself", "and I don't mind paying the 15%" and "I have no problem paying the recommended tips when I cruise".

 

His point is (as I read it anyway) that if it is in fact a gratuity than the customer should have the ability to adjust it (for instance, if service was sub-par).

[rhblake]

Here is a link to a new tipping article by AARP Inc. (formerly the American Association of Retired Persons):

 

http://www.aarp.org/money/budgeting-saving/info-2014/new-tipping-guide-photo.html?cmp=NLC-WBLTR-DSO-MCTRL-112814-TS1F-453913&encparam=cKAxXjOfO7qhvpj6PI75CyEADkMC4BGWWBuV/MesjK4=#slide2

 

You will need to copy and paste the link.

[sjbdtz]

I apologize, I never even LOOK at that line, and thought it said Svc. Charge..... now that you mention autogratuity, I can visualize it.

 

 

However, the point is moot really.

 

 

Trevor: You're paying the autogratuity even in Edinburgh. It's just incorporated into the price of the meal. Staff are paid a higher rate of BASE pay, and you may still leave them something in addition.

 

In the US (and on board cruise ships), price-marketing is very competitive. Every dollar they can remove from the BASE price makes things more saleable. It used to be that you could buy airfare at a posted rate of $289 one-way, but by the time you added the fees, and the taxes, and the other fees, and the surcharges, it was a $410 ticket.

 

That's due to price-marketing. A $289 ticket will sell quicker than a $410 all-inclusive ticket, notwithstanding that at the end of the day, each costs $410.

 

And so, knowing this, and knowing that the service is excorporated from the menu price, it should be easy to reconcile.... the price WITH the autogratuity is exactly the same price the drink would be, if all capitalists capitulated and did things the European way.

 

 

 

 

.

[hawkeyetlse]

I do continue to believe that something called a "gratuity" cannot be mandatory, and my original question was whether the 15% bar gratuity — and while we're at it the 18% spa gratuity — were truly mandatory, and if not, what the procedure is for reducing/removing them.

 

It really wouldn't change anything if NCL called these "service charges" because the other service charge on board (the daily $12) is not mandatory. Although they add it your account automatically, you can ask to have it reduced/removed. So my question is simply whether the 15% and 18% work the same way.

 

I do recognize that if there is a procedure for removing these charges, it will be used occasionally by people who have a very good reason for doing so, and sadly much more often by people who just see an opportunity to pay less. But I resent the fact that the simple act of asking the question (while making it perfectly clear that I had no past history or future intention of reducing/removing my tips) got me immediately classified as yet another European cheapskate to be treated with hostility and condescension.

 

I still have no answer to my question, but at this point I'll wait until I'm onboard and find out myself.

Edited November 29, 2014 by hawkeyetlse