Bad Economy Or Too Many Ships?

[serendipity1499]

Please don't forget that December 24th birthday. My birthday is close to Christmas and people just "forget" about it. It's hurtful.

 

OH would never forget her!.. That's our handicapped Granddaughters Birthday.. She'll be 25 this year.. Her parents usually plan her party the weekend before Christmas & she always gets gifts from "Papa & me". & her other Grandparents. We sometimes go overboard for her Birthday & Christmas.. Have to watch that we don't cheat the others..

 

How time flies! Our two other Granddaughter's Birthday's are in Oct. & Dec too..

[ICUQT]

In all fairness, the Koningsdam will replace two S-class ships if one goes by passenger head count. This by itself will do a lot to modernize the HAL fleet as half of their fleet will then be Vista-class or newer by ship count, and the clear majority of their fleet will be Vista-class or newer by passenger count.

 

igraf

 

I agree with you that the Koningsdam at a passenger count of 2650 will replace two S-Class ships with a varying passenger count of less than 1400 passengers each. That said the Vista class ships with passenger capacity of less than 2000 pax (approx.) is also aging and not IMO up to today's build as far as size, quality and amenities. The Vista class ships were built in 2002, 2003, 2004 & 2006 and yes they all have been in dry dock over the years for upgrades. But you can only do so much with the tonage and size of the Koningsdam at 2650 pax. as compared to the builds in the last few years of what I call the Mega ships the Oasis, Allure, Breakaway, Regal Princess all over 3500 pax. Go to the HA site and explore the Koningsdam. Click on the little blue circles with the stick figures. What comes up? Same amenities that you have on the Vista Class but only newer in style and decor. Modernized sure but where's the large TV screens on the outside, the water slides, the surf pools all those kinds of amenities? But (IMO) HAL caters to a certain population by demographics and it is not the younger crowd or those 20's, 30's people. Hal has found it's niche of cliental in the older, wiser and mature segment and that is fine by me. But the truth (IMO) is we who sail HA are not a party crowd, very few families with children, don't spend much in the Signature shops, Casino, Spa or whatever else is available onboard (spending habits) in contrast to the younger set of cruisers who look at the other lines in regards to the amenities that the larger ships and the clients they cater have to offer.

 

bob

[kazu]

Hello HAL fans, prices are very attractive. Considering Amsterdam 12/22, nine islands in fourteen days last minute bargain. But what is up with the wine packages? We have been spoiled by MSC who sell decent wines for $20, and some OK wines as low as $12. I think there is a reason HAL has the five most discounted last minute cruises currently available, they just don't understand the wine picture. Should we just pay the corkage fee?

 

that's one option - especially if there are certain wines you prefer.

 

Along with the wine packages and/or beverage package, you could also buy a beverage card. While there's no discount, it saves keeping a lot of receipts and that way you can choose the wine by the glass (or drink) of your choice with no restriction.

[Wakepatrol]

Hello HAL fans, prices are very attractive. Considering Amsterdam 12/22, nine islands in fourteen days last minute bargain. But what is up with the wine packages? We have been spoiled by MSC who sell decent wines for $20, and some OK wines as low as $12. I think there is a reason HAL has the five most discounted last minute cruises currently available, they just don't understand the wine picture. Should we just pay the corkage fee?

 

 

Well I can officially say,I've now heard it all:rolleyes:

[drowelf]

In all fairness, the Koningsdam will replace two S-class ships if one goes by passenger head count. This by itself will do a lot to modernize the HAL fleet as half of their fleet will then be Vista-class or newer by ship count, and the clear majority of their fleet will be Vista-class or newer by passenger count.

 

igraf

 

The one trend I see on the other cruise lines, that I don't want to try, is the mega-ship. I don't have any desire to be on a cruise ship, no matter how new, with 3500+ other passengers. We generally cruise about once every 18 months or so. We go on destination type cruises and have never repeated an itinerary so far. The largest ship I've ever been on was the Eurodam, which we've done twice in the last 3 years. The wife has been on some of the bigger ships (3000+) with her girl friends and does not care for it.

 

We started with HAL in our 30's and while there have been some changes we don't like, overall we still enjoy ourselves every time. We don't consume much alcohol on a cruise (me none and her maybe one every couple of days). So the Bar Scene does not hold a lot of incitement for us. We like to go to different ports, see the world and have a variety of food and decent entertainment.

 

Our 2 biggest complaints (one for each of us) is:

 

1) HAL needs more day time activity type stuff on Sea Days

2) Better and Cheaper Internet connectivity

 

The first is my wife's as she gets a little bored on Sea Days. The second is mine, as I send out Travel Reports (with pictures) to friends and families. The current rates are a price gouging at all levels.

 

Cheers,

[igraf]

The Vista-class ships in my opinion are HAL's best ships. They are large enough to offer extra amenities such as BB King Blues, Queen's Lounge and external glass elevators, but still offer superior passenger to space ratios as compared to most of the newer and larger ships. The Vista-class ships have, for the most part, avoided privatization of the public deck space so there really is a lot of room for everybody. The Noordam is an exception to a limited extent.

I am not a fan of the newest HAL ships. Public deck areas have been privatized on the Signature class ships (along with more passengers), and the Koningsdam will have the worst passenger to space ratio of any HAL ship.

Newer and bigger is not always better.

igraf





[quote name='ICUQT']I agree with you that the Koningsdam at a passenger count of 2650 will replace two S-Class ships with a varying passenger count of less than 1400 passengers each. That said the Vista class ships with passenger capacity of less than 2000 pax (approx.) is also aging and not IMO up to today's build as far as size, quality and amenities. The Vista class ships were built in 2002, 2003, 2004 & 2006 and yes they all have been in dry dock over the years for upgrades. But you can only do so much with the tonage and size of the Koningsdam at 2650 pax. as compared to the builds in the last few years of what I call the Mega ships the Oasis, Allure, Breakaway, Regal Princess all over 3500 pax. Go to the HA site and explore the Koningsdam. Click on the little blue circles with the stick figures. What comes up? Same amenities that you have on the Vista Class but only newer in style and decor. Modernized sure but where's the large TV screens on the outside, the water slides, the surf pools all those kinds of amenities? But (IMO) HAL caters to a certain population by demographics and it is not the younger crowd or those 20's, 30's people. Hal has found it's niche of cliental in the older, wiser and mature segment and that is fine by me. But the truth (IMO) is we who sail HA are not a party crowd, very few families with children, don't spend much in the Signature shops, Casino, Spa or whatever else is available onboard (spending habits) in contrast to the younger set of cruisers who look at the other lines in regards to the amenities that the larger ships and the clients they cater have to offer.

bob[/quote]

[Wakepatrol]

[quote name='igraf']The Vista-class ships in my opinion are HAL's best ships. They are large enough to offer extra amenities such as BB King Blues, Queen's Lounge and external glass elevators, but still offer superior passenger to space ratios as compared to most of the newer and larger ships. The Vista-class ships have, for the most part, avoided privatization of the public deck space so there really is a lot of room for everybody. The Noordam is an exception to a limited extent.

I am not a fan of the newest HAL ships. Public deck areas have been privatized on the Signature class ships (along with more passengers), and the Koningsdam will have the worst passenger to space ratio of any HAL ship.

Newer and bigger is not always better.


igraf[/quote]


The vista ships and B.B. Kings Blues club has really grown on me.

[neptuno]

HAL has the best discounts for the holidays, five of the best last minute deals. Having seen their offerings, it may be true that HAL as too many ships in the Caribbean, five doing the same itinerary plus Maasdam and Noordam, seven and then Amsterdam, with the best one time itinerary ever 12/22 (nine islands in fourteen days), makes eight. Any more I may have missed?

[sail7seas]

[quote name='igraf']The Vista-class ships in my opinion are HAL's best ships. They are large enough to offer extra amenities such as BB King Blues, Queen's Lounge and external glass elevators, but still offer superior passenger to space ratios as compared to most of the newer and larger ships. The Vista-class ships have, for the most part, avoided privatization of the public deck space so there really is a lot of room for everybody. The Noordam is an exception to a limited extent.

I am not a fan of the newest HAL ships. Public deck areas have been privatized on the Signature class ships (along with more passengers), and the Koningsdam will have the worst passenger to space ratio of any HAL ship.

Newer and bigger is not always better.

igraf[/QUOTE]

[B] Ahh, but Noordam has that fabulous Exploration Café unlike the other Vista and Signature Class ships. :)

[/B]

[Folk Singer]

It maybe a little of both, but do like what I see.

[Wakepatrol]

[quote name='neptuno']HAL has the best discounts for the holidays, five of the best last minute deals. Having seen their offerings, it may be true that HAL as too many ships in the Caribbean, five doing the same itinerary plus Maasdam and Noordam, seven and then Amsterdam, with the best one time itinerary ever 12/22 (nine islands in fourteen days), makes eight. Any more I may have missed?[/QUOTE]

The Maasdam and Amsterdam cruises started out at $2600-$2800 a year ago.

Now the Maasdam is $799 and the Maasdam $849
(For inside cabin)

[MOcruiserman]

[QUOTE]Modernized sure but where's the large TV screens on the outside, the water slides, the surf pools all those kinds of amenities? [/QUOTE]
Not everyone is looking for those amenities. HAL is not intended to compete with the "fun ships". Carnival Corp. has its Carnival line to fill that niche (and Princess to a lesser extent).

[iancal]

That lack of amenities, comparatively speaking, may be one of the reasons why HAL is struggling to fill it's ships in the Caribbean over the Christmas season.

This is a time when cruise lines should be fully booked and commanding top dollar because of demand.

[iancal]

That lack of amenities, comparatively speaking, may be one of the reasons why HAL is struggling to fill it's ships in the Caribbean over the Christmas season.

This is a time when cruise lines should be fully booked and commanding top dollar because of demand.

If you were taking your children or grandchildren on a Christmas cruise do you think they would prefer what is to them probably a 'stuffy' ship to something with a little more zip? Edited December 12, 2014 by iancal

[nana51]

[quote name='igraf']Not sure why you think the economy is bad. Freeways in San Diego are clogged with people driving to high paying jobs at Qualcomm. An average house is about $500k and sells in just a few days.

Let me add this link from CNN:

[url]http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/05/news/economy/jobs-hiring/index.html?hpt=hp_t4[/url]

I personally believe that the newer megaships have simply drawn customers away from the other ships.

igraf[/QUOTE]

I TOTALLY agree, the economy has been steadily improving for the last few years.

[Topo Gigio]

[quote name='iancal']That lack of amenities, comparatively speaking, may be one of the reasons why HAL is struggling to fill it's ships in the Caribbean over the Christmas season.

This is a time when cruise lines should be fully booked and commanding top dollar because of demand.

If you were taking your children or grandchildren on a Christmas cruise do you think they would prefer what is to them probably a 'stuffy' ship to something with a little more zip?[/QUOTE]

I think you have a point here. A couple of weeks ago, I decided to take the Thanksgiving cruise on the Eurodam(to avoid lot of kids) and the other week a cruise on the Regal Princess. There were very little kids onboard the Eurodam during Thanksgiving. And the ones that were on board were very well behaved!

[MOcruiserman]

[quote name='Topo Gigio']I think you have a point here. A couple of weeks ago, I decided to take the Thanksgiving cruise on the Eurodam(to avoid lot of kids) and the other week a cruise on the Regal Princess. There were very little kids onboard the Eurodam during Thanksgiving. And the ones that were on board were very well behaved![/quote]

And that's a bad thing?:)
Seriously, though, if I wanted to cruise with kids (12 and under) I'd go with Carnival or Disney (if I was OK spending the extra $). Maybe Princess, Norwegian or RCCL but definitely not HAL (or Celebrity). HAL is not set up to attract young children and is not the place for them. Edited December 12, 2014 by cruisernewbieman

[neptuno]

[quote name='Wakepatrol']The Maasdam and Amsterdam cruises started out at $2600-$2800 a year ago.

Now the Maasdam is $799 and the Maasdam $849
(For inside cabin)[/QUOTE]

We've opted for the Amsterdam last minute, 9 islands in fourteen days, possibly the best Caribbean itinerary out of FL ever. Third and Fourth passengers are free or deeply discounted. Bargain of our lives, thanks HAL!

[boulders]

[quote name='cruisernewbieman']And that's a bad thing?:)
Seriously, though, if I wanted to cruise with kids (12 and under) I'd go with Carnival or Disney (if I was OK spending the extra $). Maybe Princess, Norwegian or RCCL but definitely not HAL (or Celebrity). HAL is not set up to attract young children and is not the place for them.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with this. I've taken kids 12 and under on Carnival, Disney, Princess, RCCL as well as HAL. Disney was one of their least favourites. HAL is dd15's favourite cruise line.

Club HAL was excellent on the Nieuw Amsterdam. We sailed her in the summer and there were 300 kids. The counsellors were very experienced and gave ds7 a wonderful time.

If HAL doesn't attract some families, they are losing out on a huge segment of the market. Parents are having children later in life. Some of us won't be empty nesters until we're in our 60's. A lot more families are travelling than in the past. HAL must market themselves so that they are not just attracting couples in their 70's. They can't survive with just a single demographic.

[sammiedawg]

[quote name='cruisernewbieman']And that's a bad thing?:)
Seriously, though, if I wanted to cruise with kids (12 and under) I'd go with Carnival or Disney (if I was OK spending the extra $). Maybe Princess, Norwegian or RCCL but definitely not HAL (or Celebrity). HAL is not set up to attract young children and is not the place for them.[/QUOTE]

Actually the vista ships were built to attract family business, we were told this by a HAL sales rep who presented a program on Alaska twelve or thirteen years ago. I accompanied my neighbor to the local presentation, the HAL sales rep devoted a third of his time discussing how the "beautiful Zuiderdam" was perfect for families. I sailed Zuiderdam it's inaugural season and thought the ship was butt ugly with a garish decor and I did not see many families on board. I thought the lack of self serve laundries killed the ship as an option for families with kids. It seemed the left hand sales and marketing group did not communicate with the right hand and their first family ship flopped. Since then this ship has consistently been a cheap sail price wise.

[ICUQT]

[quote name='cruisernewbieman']Not everyone is looking for those amenities. HAL is not intended to compete with the "fun ships". Carnival Corp. has its Carnival line to fill that niche (and Princess to a lesser extent).[/QUOTE]

my point!

"But (IMO) HAL caters to a certain population by demographics and it is not the younger crowd or those 20's, 30's people. Hal has found it's niche of cliental in the older, wiser and mature segment and that is fine by me. But the truth (IMO) is we who sail HA are not a party crowd, very few families with children, don't spend much in the Signature shops, Casino, Spa or whatever else is available onboard (spending habits) in contrast to the younger set of cruisers who look at the other lines in regards to the amenities that the larger ships and the clients they cater have to offer."

[iancal]

My only comment would be that when my son or daughter were eight, nine, etc. and had a choice between a club HAL, Celebrity, whatever or a ship with a great pool, slide, etc , I KNOW which one they would pick. It would be the slide.

[ICUQT]

[quote name='iancal']My only comment would be that when my son or daughter were eight, nine, etc. and had a choice between a club HAL, Celebrity, whatever or a ship with a great pool, slide, etc , I KNOW which one they would pick. It would be the slide.[/QUOTE]

You got that right! lol

[iancal]

And that is exactly why they are giving away Caribbean cruises for such a low price

Think about it. Questionable entertainment, absolutely no amenities for kids other than the club, a formal environment, dress-up for dinner, a well earned reputation for a certain demographic, and zero marketing to families.

How many families would choose HAL for a Christmas vacation in the sun? How many TA's would recommend HAL for a family sun vacation? Only if the price was right. People who are familiar with HAL may.... but what about the others who have never cruised before? Edited December 12, 2014 by iancal

[cruisemom42]

[quote name='sammiedawg']Actually the vista ships were built to attract family business, we were told this by a HAL sales rep who presented a program on Alaska twelve or thirteen years ago. I accompanied my neighbor to the local presentation, the HAL sales rep devoted a third of his time discussing how the "beautiful Zuiderdam" was perfect for families. I sailed Zuiderdam it's inaugural season and thought the ship was butt ugly with a garish decor and I did not see many families on board. I thought the lack of self serve laundries killed the ship as an option for families with kids. It seemed the left hand sales and marketing group did not communicate with the right hand and their first family ship flopped. Since then this ship has consistently been a cheap sail price wise.[/quote]


Your recollections are the same as mine. HAL was heavily promoting Zuiderdam as the first of a new class of ships that were more geared to family cruising. We booked a cruise on her during her first or second season with my parents (longtime HAL cruisers) and my son who was around 9 at the time.

I also thought the ship's color scheme garish (that pink and orange lounge!), and there were not many other families with children even though it was a 7-day Caribbean cruise during a school vacation period. DS did not find HAL compared favorably with Princess (his favorite) or Celebrity at that time.

HOWEVER...

That's not to say I think HAL should contort itself into a line like RCL that heavily emphasizes "active" activities (for want of a better description). That's not HAL's strength, and other lines already have that niche pretty well covered. It was easy enough for me to choose another line (e.g., Princess, which I also liked well enough) to cruise with my son, while continuing to consider HAL for cruises on my own.

I still think HAL should remain classic (but an UPDATED, MORE MODERN classic) and focus on itineraries. If I were to go further, it might be to suggest that HAL should market itself more as a line with an international flavor (more specialty venues like Tamarind, featuring other international cuisines) and carry that through in décor, activities, entertainment, etc.

If this is to be HAL's niche, they also need to re-think having so many ships in the Caribbean in the holiday season, as I agree that many families will NOT choose it. Perhaps they should instead consider marketing to those who, for whatever reason, don't want to spend Christmas at home or NEAR home and instead want a destination cruise somewhere exotic.