The Jones Act

[RDC1]

There is a very good 2004 GAO report that covers the history and the NCL exemption.

[URL="https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=isbn:1428937064"]https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=isbn:1428937064[/URL]

[PoppyandNana]

Deleted Edited July 10, 2015 by PoppyandNana

[PoppyandNana]

[quote name='njkruzer']NCL operates an Hawaii cruise. The ship is a US flagged. They must comply with all US laws, which gave NCL trouble at the beginning.[/QUOTE]

Believe they stopped several years ago. Something about the work ethic of the American employees vs those from the countries that lines typically recruit from.

[BillB48]

I don't disagree with the intent of the PVSA/Jones acts, since I do think they do help US shipping interests by keeping some US shipbuilding/intercoastal trade alive. I think what most people have problems with is to the level of enforcement that is reached when they prevent a few passengers from stringing a couple of B2B2Bs together and then accidentally create a violation. Here you have a ship operating within the legal limits of the law and just because J.Q Cruiser has too many segments booked it's now a no-go? Booking another segment or booking one less segment would make the trip legal... I feel that is overreach. The government allows exceptions to the law when it is expedient for them such as Puerto Rico is not affected by PVSA but must comply with Jones. I would think they could find some mechanism to allow the occasional scofflaw cruiser to take their cruise as planned.

OK, soap box put away!;)

[Big Chief]

[quote name='robcruz']Can someone tell me if there are any US vessels transporting passengers between two US ocean ports? If not, how does the PVSA save even one US job as far as the passenger shipping industry is concerned?[/QUOTE]

As "Kamloops50" pointed out, the PVSA principle is also applied to airlines (one could argue that airlines are the "successors" to steamships). Thus no foreign airline can setup domestic US air service (ie Lufthansa cannot fly the NY to Miami route etc.). The same "foreign" port rules apply.

[Cruise Junky]

[quote name='PoppyandNana']Believe they stopped several years ago. Something about the work ethic of the American employees vs those from the countries that lines typically recruit from.[/quote]

Stopped what? NCL runs every Saturday around the Islands. Pride of America - a very popular and expensive Hawaiian Islands cruise.

[cle-guy]

[quote name='PoppyandNana']Believe they stopped several years ago. Something about the work ethic of the American employees vs those from the countries that lines typically recruit from.[/QUOTE]

They tried running multiple ships a season or 2, but wound back down to a single ship.

They have to follow US wage laws, which makes it expensive overall, and part of why there is only 1 ship doing it now.

US Customs has stopped the Cruises to Nowhere, because the ships' employees do not have the necessary work VISA to work with the USA, which technically since those cruises never land anyplace else, they are fully working within the USA for the duration of those voyages.

[CRUZBUDS]

NCL America began with three ships - that didn't last long before two were sent back to NCL -- they had a very rough start

West Coast to Hawaii transportation cruises ended in the early 70's

[RDC1]

No post Edited July 10, 2015 by RDC1

[skittl1321]

[quote name='Wine-O']Ensenada, Mexico, is not distant, but it qualified as they bussed people to/from from San Diego.[/quote]

It qualified because people did not disembark from the US- meaning it was not a US to US close looped cruise with no distant foreign port.

They can't call on Ensenada as the only foreign port and have it "count" to then disembark in the US because it is not distant, same as Vancouver.

[BEAV]

To paraphrase......

1. Cruises beginning/ending in the [B]same[/B] U.S. Port: (MIA-MIA, LA-LA, NYC-NYC) Sailing must visit one foreign (non-U.S.) port during the voyage. No restriction on how many, or in what order, U.S. ports can be visited as long as voyage calls at one foreign, non-U.S. port.

2. Cruises beginning/ending in two [B]different[/B] U.S. Ports: (MIA-LA, Seattle-San Diego, Boston-MIA). Sailing must visit one [I]distant[/I] foreign port (Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, Cartegena, Columbia) during the voyage.

3. Cruises sailing between U.S. and Non-U.S. ports (or vice versa): (Vancouver-San Diego, Ft Lauderdale-Barcelona, Honolulu-Ensenada). [U]The PVSA does not apply since the voyage is starting or ending in a non-U.S. port. [/U]

[neverbeenhere]

Simplicity: Why? Why? Why?:p

[upwarduk]

[quote]
3. Cruises sailing between U.S. and Non-U.S. ports (or vice versa): (Vancouver-San Diego, Ft Lauderdale-Barcelona, Honolulu-Ensenada). The PVSA does not apply since the voyage is starting or ending in a non-U.S. port.[/quote]

But, Hawaii to San Diego advertised cruise had to end in Ensenada and then we were bussed to San Diego by 52 buses some of which were of questionable standard!

[BEAV]

[quote name='upwarduk']But, Hawaii to San Diego advertised cruise had to end in Ensenada and then we were bussed to San Diego by 52 buses some of which were of questionable standard![/QUOTE]

Exactly. The voyage ended in Ensenada, therefore the PVSA didn't apply. The fact Celebrity provided buses to shuttle everyone from Ensenada to San Diego is immaterial with regard to PVSA.

[sasset]

We did several San Diego/Hawaii round trips, albeit the most recent was 2005 and we stopped in Ensenada for several hours and the continued on and ended in San Diego. That (at lest then) covered PVSA and no bus from Ensenada.. That's how Princess still does it out od Los Angeles.

[Cruise Junky]

[quote name='sasset']We did several San Diego/Hawaii round trips, albeit the most recent was 2005 and we stopped in Ensenada for several hours and the continued on and ended in San Diego. That (at lest then) covered PVSA and no bus from Ensenada.. That's how Princess still does it out od Los Angeles.[/QUOTE]

The difference is yours was a closed loop cruise. You started and ended in San Diego. You only needed to hit a foreign port.

[BEAV]

[quote name='sasset']We did several San Diego/Hawaii round trips, albeit the most recent was 2005 and we stopped in Ensenada for several hours and the continued on and ended in San Diego. That (at lest then) covered PVSA and no bus from Ensenada.. That's how Princess still does it out od Los Angeles.[/QUOTE]

Correct, and the law hasn't changed since 2005. Because you sailed round-trip from San Diego (begin/end in same U.S. port), Ensenada acted as the one foreign port requirement on the voyage. The foreign port requirements are different based on what the origin/destination ports are on a given voyage (as outlined in my post #61).

[grayjay]

Sorry - I'm still confused :confused:: Is it possible to embark at a foreign port - let's say Rome or Barcelona - to go to Fort Lauderdale and add a Caribbean loop as a B2B? It would mean embarkation in a "distant port", disembarkation in FLL/USA and then the Caribbean cruise on the same ship that begins and ends in Fort Lauderdale as well.

[robcruz]

[quote name='Big Chief']As "Kamloops50" pointed out, the PVSA principle is also applied to airlines (one could argue that airlines are the "successors" to steamships). Thus no foreign airline can setup domestic US air service (ie Lufthansa cannot fly the NY to Miami route etc.). The same "foreign" port rules apply.[/QUOTE]

It's understandable for airlines since there are several US airlines flying NYC to Miami and they don't want competition from foreign airlines. There is no US passenger ship sailing from NYC to Miami so competition is not an issue.

The point is that if the PVSA makes sense only for air travel then it should apply only to air travel.

There are US jobs lost because of the PVSA. For example one way Alaska cruises must start or end in Vancouver instead of Seattle. Obviously this means less business and job losses for Seattle.

[BEAV]

[quote name='grayjay']Sorry - I'm still confused :confused:: Is it possible to embark at a foreign port - let's say Rome or Barcelona - to go to Fort Lauderdale and add a Caribbean loop as a B2B? It would mean embarkation in a "distant port", disembarkation in FLL/USA and then the Caribbean cruise on the same ship that begins and ends in Fort Lauderdale as well.[/QUOTE]

The B2B itinerary you're suggesting is legal. Transatlantic cruise is not subject to the PVSA because it starts in a foreign port. PVSA only comes into play for cruises that both begin/end in U.S. ports.

[varoo]

[quote name='grayjay']Sorry - I'm still confused :confused:: Is it possible to embark at a foreign port - let's say Rome or Barcelona - to go to Fort Lauderdale and add a Caribbean loop as a B2B? It would mean embarkation in a "distant port", disembarkation in FLL/USA and then the Caribbean cruise on the same ship that begins and ends in Fort Lauderdale as well.[/quote] [SIZE=3] Intermediate stops make no difference in this case, and it doesn't matter whether it is all one cruise or if they are booked as separate cruises back-to-back on the same ship.

All that matters is where you initially embark and where you finally disembark the ship.

What you propose is fine.

[/SIZE]

[RDC1]

[quote name='robcruz']It's understandable for airlines since there are several US airlines flying NYC to Miami and they don't want competition from foreign airlines. There is no US passenger ship sailing from NYC to Miami so competition is not an issue.

The point is that if the PVSA makes sense only for air travel then it should apply only to air travel.

There are US jobs lost because of the PVSA. For example one way Alaska cruises must start or end in Vancouver instead of Seattle. Obviously this means less business and job losses for Seattle.[/QUOTE]

While the last US registered cruise ship stopped in 2001, there are numerous ships protected by the law.

For example according to MARAD (US Maritime Administration) in 2010 there were 233 ferry operators that carried 50 million passengers. Note that was just Ferry operations, in 2004 MARAD indicated that there were over 1000 US flagged ships (including ferry operations) carrying passengers under PVSA. The world is not limited to large cruise ships.

Coastwise or Jones Act vessels typically handle a combined total of over one billion tons of cargo annually. These cargoes are mostly bulk products such as petroleum, coal, iron ore, grain, crushed rock and decorative stone. However, high value containerized products dominate the U.S.-flag domestic trade to Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico. Not surprisingly, the U.S.-flag domestic cargo fleet supporting this massive inland and ocean trade was made up of more than 38,000 vessels (mostly tugs and barges) that represent over $41 billion in private investment in 2010. Edited July 10, 2015 by RDC1

[hvsteve1]

[quote name='Wine-O']Ensenada, Mexico, is not distant, but it qualified as they bussed people to/from from San Diego.[/QUOTE]

Why are people being bused from Ensenada to San Diego? On our Hawaii cruise we stopped in Ensenada for a few hours, then continued to San Diego on the ship.

[BourbonNBluesLuvr]

[quote name='hvsteve1']Why are people being bused from Ensenada to San Diego? On our Hawaii cruise we stopped in Ensenada for a few hours, then continued to San Diego on the ship.[/QUOTE]

Hello,

Because they embarked on a one-way cruise from Hawaii...and not a round-trip (closed loop) trip...which yours was from San Diego. On yours, the ship only needs to call at a foreign port (Ensenada)...on theirs, it would need to call at a "distant" foreign port, which Ensenada is not... so they cannot debark at a different US port from where it started, without satisfying that "distant" foreign port requirement of the PVSA.

Hope this helps

BBL Edited July 11, 2015 by BourbonNBluesLuvr

[BEAV]

[quote name='hvsteve1']Why are people being bused from Ensenada to San Diego? On our Hawaii cruise we stopped in Ensenada for a few hours, then continued to San Diego on the ship.[/QUOTE]

A round trip cruise such as you were on from San Diego requires one stop at any foreign port (Ensenada, in this case). One way cruises that start in Honolulu cannot end in San Diego because they must call at a distant foreign port, of which Ensenada is not. Therefore the one way cruises from Honolulu have to end in Ensenada and the cruise lines shuttle you on back to San Diego.