What would you do about "scaled back" cruise?

[ellieanne]

A bit off-topic: As a sidebar to this topic, I am wondering that the longest cruise that any of you CCers have encountered that had a large group onboard? I have seen them on 3-7 nighters, but can't recall them on anything longer.

 

I am wondering if booking a true 14 nighter, for example, would be less likely to have a group onboard than a cruise sold as two 7-night segments.

 

Most of my cruises have been longer than 10-days and I have only had encounters with large groups on a few 7-days cruises I've taken. The groups were large, but rally did not impact my cruise experience.

 

In fact on the one with the Mac computer group, my younger brother was invited to join the main events by several of the group members/organizers because they saw him out-and-about with his mac and the Dvorak keyboard.

 

That same cruise and a group of assistance dogs, and the only complain I heard from them was someone commenting that they did not want to swim in the water at Half Moon Cay because the assistance dogs had been in the water.

 

Far worse than groups, in my opinion, are the art auctions that take over the Ocean Bar for most of the day EVERY sea day. I'd really like to get rid of those and I find being asked to leave the bar, when all I'm doing is sitting by the window reading a book quietly quite rude. And the people doing the asking can be very rude about it.

[Mary Ellen]

I am wondering if booking a true 14 nighter, for example, would be less likely to have a group onboard than a cruise sold as two 7-night segments.

 

I used to believe that. We once had a very large (at least several hundred) Japanese tour group on board a 14-day China/Japan cruise.

 

Several years before that I also remember reading here about problems with a Park West group of 'high rollers' who had the Crow's Nest reserved 24/7 for the art displays. Part of the cruise involved scenic cruising through the Dardanelles. The passengers who posted about that weren't too happy about being denied access to the Crow's Nest - particularly during that time. I don't recall the exact length of that cruise, but to that area they are usually around 2 weeks.

[hattack]

Yes....affinity groups are more condusive to 7 days or less cruises because most of the group are working class and are using one week of their vacation time (if you have a job and/or small kids 7 days is about the limit you can be away).....another challenge is to make sure the ship's logistical limitations (i.e. HAL Westerdam has only 1 MDR) are a. "fit " for the groups requirements (i.e. group is requesting the entire early seating and late show time exclusive for it's group)...not good....find another ship for your group or plan to split your group for dining/show times so not to overtly negatively impact the cruise experience for the balance of the ship....the cruiseline should moniter how many groups of 100 or more are on any one sailing...sometimes 10 groups of 150 can cause more chaos then 1 group of 1500 in terms of impacting guest who are not a part of a group....

 

Final thought, actively google or work with a trusted travel agency to monitor (both pro and con) large groups that cruise every year...let's say you are a fan of 50's & 60's music (pro)...often a popular radio station will be hosting a group with private entertainment of your favorite artists from that era...if known well in advance, you can ctc the group leader and for a few extra $$$$ become part of their group prior to final payment due...much better than arriving at the departure port the day off sailing and finding out you cannot attend as a regular guest...it works in reverse also....the really good news is that more and more larger affinity groups are doing full charters where they can be immersed for 7 days/nights with fellow guests that share a common passion

[hattack]

Excellent point about international groups...because of cheaper group air cost & packages combined with distance travel and most International Country's have vacation policy's much more liberal then the USA (2-6 weeks in one block) you might encounter larger international groups on cruises longer than 7 days

 

On my full charter Jazz Cruises we encounter large international groups that do B2B 7 day Jazz Cruise with different promoters , ships and musical styles and artists

 

My dream is for Sports Illustrated and Victoria Secret to shoot their annual issues onboard the same ship on the same week:)

[kazu]

I used to believe that. We once had a very large (at least several hundred) Japanese tour group on board a 14-day China/Japan cruise.

 

Several years before that I also remember reading here about problems with a Park West group of 'high rollers' who had the Crow's Nest reserved 24/7 for the art displays. Part of the cruise involved scenic cruising through the Dardanelles. The passengers who posted about that weren't too happy about being denied access to the Crow's Nest - particularly during that time. I don't recall the exact length of that cruise, but to that area they are usually around 2 weeks.

 

It was my China cruise that was chartered as well. I believe that segment was 16 days (or was it 14?, but my memory is short. It was part of a collectors' cruise.

Edited July 21, 2015 by kazu

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...actively google or work with a trusted travel agency to monitor (both pro and con) large groups that cruise every year...

 

Good advice, but even a great TA might not know every group to check for. IMO, cruise lines should be willing to post this info for customer goodwill. If certain venues and activities that are advertised won't be available, then potential passengers should be aware of it :(.

[hattack]

The daily informational newsletter usually post which venues will be reserved for a private function for a specific time period....there is nothing in the Carriage of Contract that requires them to do that.....or...states that all public venues must be available to all guests all the time (contrary to some postings on this thread)

 

CD's are normally pretty good in doing a balancing act during the course of the week between the large group & the balance of the guests....large groups are a reality and on almost every ship on every sailing...generally folks adjust and not let it spoil their cruise....smart CD's plan alternative activities in other areas of the ship to compensate for one venue being reserved

[sail7seas]

The daily informational newsletter usually post which venues will be reserved for a private function for a specific time period....there is nothing in the Carriage of Contract that requires them to do that.....or...states that all public venues must be available to all guests all the time (contrary to some postings on this thread)

 

CD's are normally pretty good in doing a balancing act during the course of the week between the large group & the balance of the guests....large groups are a reality and on almost every ship on every sailing...generally folks adjust and not let it spoil their cruise....smart CD's plan alternative activities in other areas of the ship to compensate for one venue being reserved

 

Are we supposed to 'give them kudos' for publishing in the daily program the venues those not a part of the group will be denied access to? What is the 'gift' of the fact they are saying, So sorry but don't you try to use the Crows Nest? Just rubs our face even more in the fact we thought we were purchasing full use of the whole ship as is customarily available to all guests but on this special large group cruise, many of us will not be using the whole ship. Too late for us to do anything about it. :rolleyes: ..... such as reconsider about booking that cruise.

 

There is no ''pretty good" or reasonable substitute for being told to leave the only outdoor pool on a beautiful Caribbean day just after lunch. That is simply not acceptable on any level, IMO.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2015 by sail7seas

[hattack]

I'm confused...where in the HAL Carriage of Contract or the Cruise Line International Bill of Rights does it states a ticket entitles you "full use of the whole ship as is customarily avaiable to all guests"

CD's file an extensive report at the end of each cruise a portion of which includes the impact of groups on the overall experience for all guests...if the impact was overwhelmimgly negative the cruise line will not invite the group back...the OP has crafted a well thought out posting that if it results in a letter to Guest Services should result in the Guest Relations Rep, to utililize as many resources in their toolkit as possible to keep the OP's future cruise business (the 1st recourse if possible is to bring it to the attention of the onboard guest relations desk, when the incident has just occurred)).......fyi when one DEMANDS specific compensation and threatens never to cruise the line again, it could backfire...much better to phrase the letter to indicate how much one enjoys the areas (i,e. Crow's Nest) that they did not have access to because of the group and give a ballpark date of a future cruise on HAL...the Guest Relations Rep will refer to the CD incident report, know that it was an issue impacting many, will review and will also review your onboard S&S spending pattern (steak house, spa, bar bill etc)...it's called lagniappe

Groups are a way of life in the cruise industry(and one would really have to go out of their way to avoid them, whether you know in advance or not)...most cruisers would not have allowed the specific incident mentioned regarding the Crow's Nest to impact their overall cruise enjoyment (just find another favorite spot to have a drink and watch the sunset & make new friends)...life is to short and cruise time to precious to stress out over it...cruising is to relax

[sail7seas]

I'm not going to play a game of parsing words.

We all know we all expect to have full use of a ship for our cruise. We are (almost) never told in advance if they have a large group that will deny us use of some venues.

 

We all know it is too late when we board to learn about this.

What are we to do at that point?

 

I suspect you have a vested interest in quibbling the expectations of cruisers who, in good faith, buy use of a ship in the usual and customary areas and do not receive that.

 

I never saw a cruise ad, brochure, website that states there are times we will not be able to use aft pool on a sunny Caribbean day because the group is having a private pool party.

 

No one is denying the cruise companies make a great deal of money from large groups but it is often at the expense of all other guests aboard who are not part of the group. Speaking only for myself, after having sailed over 90+ cruises, I am aware of the duties and responsibilities of Guest Relations Managers and CD's. ;)

 

 

Just for clarity as you make reference to their reviewing our spending pattern. ALL of those many cruises I reference above have been in Neptune Suites (category "S", "SA" as they were formerly known) or PS. We never spent any cruise without dining in the alternative restaurants, pre and post dinner visits for cocktails, after dinner drinks, lovely bottles of wine etc etc etc . You get the picture. I interpret the implication of your S & S comment to be a reference to 'maybe some who are complaining didn't spend enough on the cruise. In my case, that would be inaccurate. I cannot speak for anyone else.

 

We can say the same things over and over but the words are the same. Either we agree it is not right to do this repeatedly on the ships without answering truthfully even if directly asked, or we do not agree.

 

The only ones who think it is okay is likely those who benefit from such behavior. ;)

 

Edited July 22, 2015 by sail7seas

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...The only ones who think it is okay is likely those who benefit from such behavior...

 

Bingo!

 

I recall once staying in a four-star hotel in L.A. I was expecting to pay their usual rate, but, when making my reservation, I was told that my room would be 1/2 price during my stay as renovations were taking place. The discount was due to the fact that some of the usual amenities might not be available to guests at times due to construction. Noise was not an issue as my room was some distance from the work being done.

 

I wish cruise lines either be as honest and transparent about group bookings, or make sure that no usually available and advertised venues are made available exclusively to the groups. For example, have groups meet in the MDR between meals, the casino when it is closed, or in the theatre during times it would normally be dark.

 

Instead I have seen groups be allowed to take over the Crow's Nest during prime viewing time on the Inside Passage, take over pools and deck space mid-day requiring others to get up and leave, etc. :mad:.

Edited July 22, 2015 by SoCal Cruiser78
grammar

[Mary Ellen]

I recall once staying in a four-star hotel in L.A. I was expecting to pay their usual rate, but, when making my reservation, I was told that my room would be 1/2 price during my stay as renovations were taking place. The discount was due to the fact that some of the usual amenities might not be available to guests at times due to construction. Noise was not an issue as my room was some distance from the work being done.

Exactly. Several years ago we flew to Japan first class. I knew that we were on a different 777 than originally scheduled only because there were extra rows in first (went from 2-3 to 5-6). Easy enough to tell anyway in such a small cabin. No big deal as far as we knew. Shortly after we arrived in Japan we received emails from the airline offering compensation because the older aircraft used on our flight didn't have all of the features available to us that the scheduled newer plane offered. We appreciated the airline doing something when they felt a substandard was provided - even if we didn't complain. The OP got a substandard cruise from HAL.

[ellieanne]

Bingo!

 

I recall once staying in a four-star hotel in L.A. I was expecting to pay their usual rate, but, when making my reservation, I was told that my room would be 1/2 price during my stay as renovations were taking place. The discount was due to the fact that some of the usual amenities might not be available to guests at times due to construction. Noise was not an issue as my room was some distance from the work being done.

 

I wish cruise lines either be as honest and transparent about group bookings, or make sure that no usually available and advertised venues are made available exclusively to the groups. For example, have groups meet in the MDR between meals, the casino when it is closed, or in the theatre during times it would normally be dark.

 

Instead I have seen groups be allowed to take over the Crow's Nest during prime viewing time on the Inside Passage, take over pools and deck space mid-day requiring others to get up and leave, etc. :mad:.

 

There is a big difference between construction at a hotel and a group on a cruise. Are you told when you make a booking that the hotel may be hosting a large wedding reception? Or a school tour group?

 

Construction has a potential to impact the guest in ways the hotel could be liable for, should damage to the guest occur (think hearing damage, inhalation of dust, etc.). Groups do not have that kind of liability impact.

 

And as many have stated had they known a gourd was on their cruise, they would have chosen to book a different one. The ships aren't in business for your convenience, they are in business for their monetary gain. They need to sell as many cabin berths as possible, and if the ship is not a full charter for the group, Holland America/Carnival has an obligation to their shareholders to fill the ship. Announcing to potential passengers that a large group will be on board and may impact the cruise would not be good business.

 

As the adage says, it is far better to beg forgiveness, than seek permission.

 

Works out cheaper for the cruise line as well…as it is, they only have to offer a credit towards a future cruise that may never happen. They've lost nothing.

[SoCal Cruiser78]

There is a big difference between construction at a hotel and a group on a cruise...

 

Yes, there is a difference. If a hotel turns out to be unacceptable, I can check out and go to another hotel (and I have on occasion). Not easy to do once onboard a ship, and the cruise lines know it :(.

Edited July 22, 2015 by SoCal Cruiser78

[hattack]

Large groups (or charters) are pursued by the cruise lines to fill ships during traditional slow sailing months which contribute greatly to the bottom line and keep cruise fares stable....if you have ever received an upsell call or email less then 60- 90 days out from sailing it's usually because a large group did not meet it's cabin quota and per contract the cruise line is exercising it's contractual right to sell unused cabins and I bet most posters don't ask or don't care that they are benefitting from a large group or that certain venues may be reserved during the week...as a cruise stockholder, I am pleased when I see large groups in the boarding area on embarcation day...if your cruise is sold out 11 months in advance during a traditional cruise "off season" there is probably a large group onboard or in the case of a private charter, the occupany rate fleetwide is higher because guests are booking alternative ships for the same week

 

There is no practical way (or smart business sense) for cruiselines to notify every guest when a group is booked or how it will impact their experience...the great irony (of course) is based upon avoiding a large group, one will change their plans and ship, switch to another ship and discover there is a last minute group booking that present more challenges then your original or, you discover after changing your cruise plans the original large group has cancelled....my thoughts you have selected your ship, your ports, your week and you board with a positive attitude and have confidence that your CD and staff will do every thing they can to make it a great week for both the large group and regular guests

 

Every year my big brother and SIL go on Royal Caribbean 1/2 charter "High Seas Rally" (motor cycle group)...when they first started sailing 10 years ago, other guests were loudly complaining because they had preconceived" perceptions based upon the fact they loved their bikes and what they thought the behavior that it entaled...both are Vietnam Vets and EMR nurses....the first year on opening night the captain of the FOS rode his Harley onto the main stage and in the atrium which broke down alot of barriers...10 years later regular guests go out of their way to book the week that the "High Seas Rally" group is onboard because they understand how the "flow" of the week, enhances their cruise experience

[ABoatNerd]

A basic principle of business is that a company is to provide their product offering as advertised when they accepted payment. This despite all the contractual blab saying they can change ports etc, etc.

 

The OP did not receive the advertised product. Enough said.

 

I support the OP's intent to inform HAL that they did not deliver on their contracted product offering - getting compensation, well that is something else.

 

This is an example that the media - specifically, the consumer advocate office at regional and national media outlets, would appreciate being alerted to. Their segments on TV are designed to inform consumers of issues in the market place - this is a good item.

 

At time of final payment, it would be advantageous for your TA to check with the line to determine if there are any large group bookings. Also there are web sites devoted to group cruises.

 

ABoatNerd

[hattack]

I concur that the OP by the way he expressed his valid concerns in services not received presents a favorable case & should earn a favorable response from HAL...

 

In the design of the next generation mega ships (i.e. NCL Getaway) there are mulitple smaller venues which mitigates the impact of having one venue reserved for a large group...also there is a designated area (The Haven) that provides a reserved area for high end guests at the top of the ship for cabins, to dine and enjoy ammenities so they would not be impacted by a large group reserving a venue, because they have their own

 

A large group of 1000 on the Getaway that holds 5000 is very different then 1000 on the Westerdam which holds 2600 in terms of impact on the balance of the guests not associated with the group

 

I would be curious if any posters on this thread have been a part of a large group and have received a less then warm reaction from guests not a part of their group

[sail7seas]

Large groups (or charters) are pursued by the cruise lines to fill ships during traditional slow sailing months which contribute greatly to the bottom line and keep cruise fares stable....if you have ever received an upsell call or email less then 60- 90 days out from sailing it's usually because a large group did not meet it's cabin quota and per contract the cruise line is exercising it's contractual right to sell unused cabins and I bet most posters don't ask or don't care that they are benefitting from a large group or that certain venues may be reserved during the week...as a cruise stockholder, I am pleased when I see large groups in the boarding area on embarcation day...if your cruise is sold out 11 months in advance during a traditional cruise "off season" there is probably a large group onboard or in the case of a private charter, the occupany rate fleetwide is higher because guests are booking alternative ships for the same week

 

 

Again, the insinuation that it is bargain hunter low fare paying cruisers who are most impacted by groups on ships. It is simply not true that large groups are usually on ships during slow season. The cruise I encountered the worst issues was February in the Caribbean. High fares.

 

 

 

 

There is no practical way (or smart business sense) for cruiselines to notify every guest when a group is booked or how it will impact their experience...

 

 

 

A notice on their website (an asterisk next to the date of that cruise) would be simple though, of course, will not happen.

 

 

 

the great irony (of course) is based upon avoiding a large group, one will change their plans and ship, switch to another ship and discover there is a last minute group booking that present more challenges then your original or, you discover after changing your cruise plans the original large group has cancelled....my thoughts you have selected your ship, your ports, your week and you board with a positive attitude and have confidence that your CD and staff will do every thing they can to make it a great week for both the large group and regular guests

 

 

 

Here we go again with CD. Come on. Really? That has not been my experience. CD staff is so trimmed down these days they hardly have a staff on HAL.

 

Every year my big brother and SIL go on Royal Caribbean 1/2 charter "High Seas Rally" (motor cycle group)...when they first started sailing 10 years ago, other guests were loudly complaining because they had preconceived" perceptions based upon the fact they loved their bikes and what they thought the behavior that it entaled...both are Vietnam Vets and EMR nurses....the first year on opening night the captain of the FOS rode his Harley onto the main stage and in the atrium which broke down alot of barriers...10 years later regular guests go out of their way to book the week that the "High Seas Rally" group is onboard because they understand how the "flow" of the week, enhances their cruise experience

 

 

 

I can't speak what happens on RCL. I only speak for my experiences on HAL. I sailed RCL once and never returned.

 

[Fouremco]

Large groups (or charters) are pursued by the cruise lines to fill ships during traditional slow sailing months which contribute greatly to the bottom line and keep cruise fares stable.

While cruise lines might pursue groups for traditional slow sailing months, the reality is that the vast majority of groups like to cruise during the same popular months that the rest of us prefer. Spend some time looking for group cruises and you'll see that most offerings are during peak periods. I've had groups on all of my Caribbean primetime cruises, fortunately all small and of no concern to date. I've also had a February cruise booked long in advance cancelled many months later to accommodate a group charter, something I was far less happy about.

[hattack]

It's a pure business decision...if groups want to sail during peak periods (when the cruise lines can fill the ships anyway) they will pay the going market rate...if the group has flexibility in terms of time, the cruiselines will offer a pricing incentive to go offpeak or on an older ship (far fewer bells & whistles)....since we are talking about HAL, there is a reason the Eurodam is chartered out for 6 of the 8 weeks in Jan & Feb for ECP music cruises every year...HAL makes it very appealing price wise to ECP for that period...by reducing fleetwide cabin inventory for those weeks, it raises high yield load factors for the rest of the fleet and keeps prices level...if ECP wanted to charter the Eurodam in the summer or holidays it would cost them alot more which forces them to charge even more for their charter guests, which puts them at a competitive disadvantage

 

There is a formula that most cruise lines use when they are approached about a charter...the ideal time to sign a charter is 14-18 months out...advance bookings are very low...impacted guests have more options to choose from and usually come out ahead in the process...any incremental cost that the cruiseline incurrs to reacommodate booked guests is absorb by the promotor chartering the ship, so it's a win/win...when a promotor approaches a cruise line for a charter with less than 13 months out it becomes far more complicated and more disrupted....NCL & Sixthman utilize the Pearl as their primary designated charter vessel of choice and long term fleet planning knows not to show the Pearl in general inventory in off peak month

 

I live in New Orleans...August of 2005 following Hurricane Katrina, Carnival made a courageous decision (IMHO) to remove 3 Fantasy Class Ships from revenue service for

housing for 1st responders thru a charter with FEMA....yes Carnival was paid well, but they knew how it would impact guests booked for the next 120 days...I saved screen shots of the postings on this board (both pro & con) of how folks felt about having their cruise disrupted (Carnival had enough excess capacity to accomodate every guest impacted for every week of the contract) because of Katrina....next month is the 10 year anniversary of Katrina...in retrospect knowing how devastating Katrina was, if folks reread their postings would they still feel the same way

[Lizzie68]

Large groups (or charters) are pursued by the cruise lines to fill ships during traditional slow sailing months which contribute greatly to the bottom line and keep cruise fares stable....if you have ever received an upsell call or email less then 60- 90 days out from sailing it's usually because a large group did not meet it's cabin quota and per contract the cruise line is exercising it's contractual right to sell unused cabins and I bet most posters don't ask or don't care that they are benefitting from a large group or that certain venues may be reserved during the week...as a cruise stockholder, I am pleased when I see large groups in the boarding area on embarcation day...if your cruise is sold out 11 months in advance during a traditional cruise "off season" there is probably a large group onboard or in the case of a private charter, the occupany rate fleetwide is higher because guests are booking alternative ships for the same week

 

There is no practical way (or smart business sense) for cruiselines to notify every guest when a group is booked or how it will impact their experience...the great irony (of course) is based upon avoiding a large group, one will change their plans and ship, switch to another ship and discover there is a last minute group booking that present more challenges then your original or, you discover after changing your cruise plans the original large group has cancelled....my thoughts you have selected your ship, your ports, your week and you board with a positive attitude and have confidence that your CD and staff will do every thing they can to make it a great week for both the large group and regular guests

 

Every year my big brother and SIL go on Royal Caribbean 1/2 charter "High Seas Rally" (motor cycle group)...when they first started sailing 10 years ago, other guests were loudly complaining because they had preconceived" perceptions based upon the fact they loved their bikes and what they thought the behavior that it entaled...both are Vietnam Vets and EMR nurses....the first year on opening night the captain of the FOS rode his Harley onto the main stage and in the atrium which broke down alot of barriers...10 years later regular guests go out of their way to book the week that the "High Seas Rally" group is onboard because they understand how the "flow" of the week, enhances their cruise experience

 

That would have been Captain Johnny. His Harley goes with him on every ship. A very personable man.