Gratutities

[Iamcruzin]

For those of you who feel that the gratuity should be part of the cruise fare there is a simple solution. All you have to do is select paid gratuity for your go big choice and the gratuity will be added into your fare. Of course those who don't want to pay gratuity at all are free to book an inside stateroom.

[Fish Lover]

For those of you who feel that the gratuity should be part of the cruise fare there is a simple solution. All you have to do is select paid gratuity for your go big choice and the gratuity will be added into your fare. Of course those who don't want to pay gratuity at all are free to book an inside stateroom.

 

???

Inside staterooms are subject to paying gratuities just as any stateroom is. Further, inside staterooms will still pre-pay if the passengers choose select dining.

[OzKiwiJJ]

To my knowledge, the only brands that call in Australia with all-in pricing is P&O, Azamara on occasion, and perhaps a couple of the small ship, ultra luxury brands. I very tiny, almost insignificant number of people.

 

 

There are three cruise lines that have ships based in Australia: P&O Australia (soon to be five ships), Carnival (two ships, I think), and Princess who has three full-time ships and another 2-3 that come here for our season. All these ships have onboard costs in AUD and all gratuities are included in the fares and prices.

 

The Australian cruise market is the fastest growing in the world according to articles published earlier this year. The number of passengersthat cruise on these ships is not a very tiny, insignificant number. Please get your facts right.

[PoppyandNana]

We are well over 100 posts on a tipping thread and no one has brought up giving gifts instead of tips.

 

What about a pair of jeans or perhaps a high quality table lamp? :)

 

 

I wouldn't go there if I were you. There is a thread on Celebrity dissecting the same issue. The venom expressed about why gifts of any sort are not appropriate is astounding.

[cle-guy]

There are three cruise lines that have ships based in Australia: P&O Australia (soon to be five ships), Carnival (two ships, I think), and Princess who has three full-time ships and another 2-3 that come here for our season. All these ships have onboard costs in AUD and all gratuities are included in the fares and prices.

 

The Australian cruise market is the fastest growing in the world according to articles published earlier this year. The number of passengersthat cruise on these ships is not a very tiny, insignificant number. Please get your facts right.

 

What we have determined (read upthread as verified by one of your own country persons) is that these sights are location dependent when booking.

 

That is, I in the USA when booking, get different pricing, Currency (USD), and itemized gratuities and taxes and port fees. We know similar things happen fro UK bookers on Celebrity as far as fare discrepancies (have not tested the all-in or itemization yet there)

 

We tested this based on Princess Sea Brisbane to Sydney in February 2016.

 

People booking in Oz and NZ are directed to a different site, where they receive pricing for their residents, in a single number that includes taxes, fees, fare and gratuities when displayed, in AUD.

 

Considering Carinival has over 50 ships, RCL has over 20, that there are 7 ships in Oz, is a relatively insignificant number, especially af any are seasonal, and especially when compared to other markets like the Caribbean.

 

IN 2013 Australia had 833,348 passengers among all ships that called there. In the USA, it was 14.19 million. Worldwide was about 22 million. That translates to just over 4% of cruise passengers boarded Australian cruses.

 

I did find the article (in fact I have linked it above) about Australia being the fastest growing market, the article of course put out by the Australian Tourism Bureau. RCL has stated their focus is Europe and Asia. I don't follow Carnival enough to know their plans, though most of the brands you have capture, are Carnival brands.

 

So as you say, Please get your facts right.

 

What it boils down to is cruise lines are being forced to include gratuities in cruise fares for bookers in Oz and NZ, yet display it separately for North American bookers...There must be some reason for this.....It can't be because of laws, since not all lines do it this way, so it must be because there is some issue with people and paying gratuities from OZ and NZ that warrants them making such changes in their pricing structure there but not here.

Edited August 4, 2015 by cle-guy

[cle-guy]

???

Inside staterooms are subject to paying gratuities just as any stateroom is. Further, inside staterooms will still pre-pay if the passengers choose select dining.

 

His meaning was, people that just hate seeing gratuities itemized, can book the BIG! promotion and therefore it IS in the price and not itemized out if they choose Grats as their perk (and can't be modified) while those who want to modify them and screw the staff can book an inside, not book select, and then have gratuities removed at guest services.

[Iamcruzin]

???

Inside staterooms are subject to paying gratuities just as any stateroom is. Further, inside staterooms will still pre-pay if the passengers choose select dining.

 

Yes I'm well aware of the fact that inside staterooms are subject to gratuity. However, Go Big isn't an option and those who are determine not to tip will just book traditional dining where pre paid gratuity isn't required at final payment.

[Gone Fishing]

I wouldn't go there if I were you. There is a thread on Celebrity dissecting the same issue. The venom expressed about why gifts of any sort are not appropriate is astounding.

 

Yes I have seen them come and seen them go. :)

 

IMHO a big bag of M&Ms included with the tip is not an issue and the steward can just toss them on the table in the crew bar if they don't want them.

 

All these threads end the same ...... Locked :rolleyes:

[sloopsailor]

What we have determined (read upthread as verified by one of your own country persons) is that these sights are location dependent when booking.

 

That is, I in the USA when booking, get different pricing, Currency (USD), and itemized gratuities and taxes and port fees.

 

We tested this based on Princess Sea Brisbane to Sydney in February 2016.

 

People booking in Oz and NZ are directed to a different site, where they receive pricing for their residents, in a single number that includes, taxes, fees fare and gratuities when displayed, in AUD.

 

Considering Carinival has over 50 ships, RCL has over 20, that there are 7 ships in Oz, is a relatively insignificant number, especially af any are seasonal, and especially when compared to other markets like the Caribbean.

 

IN 2013 Australia had 833,348 passengers among all ships that called there. In the USA, it was 14.19 million. Worldwide was about 22 million. That translates to just over 4% of cruise passengers boarded Australian cruses.

 

I did find the article (in fact I have linked it above) about Australia being the fastest growing market, the article of course put out by the Australian Tourism Bureau. RCL has stated their focus is Europe and Asia. I don't follow Carnival enough to know their plans, though most of the brands you have captures, are all Carnival brands.

 

So as you say, Please get your facts right.

 

What it boils down to is cruise lines are being forced to include gratuities in cruise fares for bookers in Oz and NZ, yet display it separately for North American bookers...There must be some reason for this.....It can't be because of laws, since not all lines do it this way, so it must be because there is some issue with people and paying gratuities from OZ and NZ that warrants them making such changes in their pricing structure there but not here.

 

Thanks for your detailed information. Austrailia is not the fastest growing market, according to Carnival Corporation and Royal Caribbean Corporation. Both agree that Asia is.

 

To counter the Australian article appointing itself the fastest growing market, here is an article published on July 9th of this year that contradicts that claim:

 

http://www.travelmarketreport.com/articles/Asian-Cruise-Market-Grows-As-Cruise-Lines-Expand-Offerings

 

Here are two quotes from the article:

 

"The cruise vacation market in China is still small, relatively speaking. However, it is the fastest growing market in the world,”

 

"Two years after Carnival Asia CEO Pier Luigi Foschi predicted Asia would account for 20% of the world cruise market by 2020, the region has increased its capacity share almost double any other region, and now owns the fourth largest cruise capacity—behind the Mediterranean, Caribbean and Europe—of the regions CLIA measured."

 

We seem to have a case of dueling articles on who is the fastest growing. :)

 

That Royal Caribbean Corporation and Carnival Corporation are sending new ships to be home ported in Asia tells me they think this is where the future of cruising is, not Australia, no matter how much the local inhabitants insist that they are the center of the universe - or the belief that all cruise lines should be operated per Australian cultural norms. ;)

Edited August 4, 2015 by sloopsailor

[OzKiwiJJ]

OK, likely this varies based on booking location then.

 

I just went and did a Sea dummy booking for Feb 26, 2016 Brisbane to Sydney, and it says gratuities will be extra when i click the "What's included in my Cruise Fare" link on the booking.

 

I'm booking from the USA, and know that Celebrity offers different fares, rules and perks based on location, so makes sense that Princess would do the same.

 

I believe it only applies to booking made in Australia and NZ who have the grats built into the fare. All our fares also show taxes and ports fees in the price as well.

 

Interesting, and somewhat confusing as far as these discussions go. So if there is a crowd of people lined up to remove their grats on the Aussie-based ships we can assume they are all Americans. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[sloopsailor]

So if there is a crowd of people lined up to remove their grats on the Aussie-based ships we can assume they are all Americans.

 

No, they are Aussies who booked through US travel agents to get a lower fare believing that the fare being offered through their Australian websites were too high (of course, this being the result of the gratuities being added to the base fare. Seems as if they want it both ways: the cheapest fare, and no "immoral" gratuities.) :rolleyes:.:rolleyes:.:rolleyes:.:rolleyes:

Edited August 4, 2015 by sloopsailor

[OzKiwiJJ]

Considering Carinival has over 50 ships, RCL has over 20, that there are 7 ships in Oz, is a relatively insignificant number, especially af any are seasonal, and especially when compared to other markets like the Caribbean.

 

though most of the brands you have capture, are Carnival brands.

 

What it boils down to is cruise lines are being forced to include gratuities in cruise fares for bookers in Oz and NZ, yet display it separately for North American bookers...There must be some reason for this.....It can't be because of laws, since not all lines do it this way, so it must be because there is some issue with people and paying gratuities from OZ and NZ that warrants them making such changes in their pricing structure there but not here.

 

Actually 13 ships, 10 of which are based here all year round now and yes, they are all Carnival brands. Per head of population that's probably a fairly high number. Then we get a couple of RCI and Celebrity ships for our season, with onboard charges in USD, and a few others pass through or spend some time here as well. Actually it's going to be interesting to see what happens over the next season or two with the Aussie and NZ dollars falling against the US. That makes the non-AUS-based ships very expensive in our terms.

 

As to why, firstly it's a legal requirement. Australian and NZ laws state that prices must be quoted as all inclusive of any fees or taxes.

 

Secondly it's a cultural thing. Tips are not required in Aus/NZ, in fact when paying by credit card the machine is often presented to you ready for pin entry, meaning the tip entry (if available) as been bypassed. So when you are brought up in a culture of no or minimal tipping, mandatory 15-18% can be serious sticker shock for those that are not prepared for it and could, potentially lead to lost sales. However include the tips in the price and everyone is happy. Yes, I know, it's weird. :rolleyes:

[OzKiwiJJ]

No, they are Aussies who booked through US travel agents to get a lower fare believing that the fare being offered through their Australian websites were too high (of course, this being the result of the gratuities being added to the base fare. Seems as if they want it both ways: the cheapest fare, and no "immoral" gratuities.) :rolleyes:.:rolleyes:.:rolleyes:.:rolleyes:

 

I would imagine the number of Aussies who book through US travel agents would be miniscule. These days there is little advantage.

[cle-guy]

As to why, firstly it's a legal requirement. Australian and NZ laws state that prices must be quoted as all inclusive of any fees or taxes.

 

I have operated businesses in Sydney and Melbourne in the past, so am somewhat familiar with their pricing rules.

 

Your statement is generally true, but there are exceptions.

 

From the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission

Component pricing

 

When you present prices to your customers, you must state the total price of the good or service as a single figure, which is the minimum total cost that is able to be calculated. This should include any tax, duty, fee, levy or other additional charges (e.g. GST or airport tax). This rule generally does not apply in business-to-business transactions. This means you do not need to include GST if a price statement is made exclusively to businesses.

 

You do not need to include optional charges or extras or delivery charges – unless you are aware of a minimum delivery charge that must be paid in which case you can chose whether to include it in the total price or as a separate component.

 

If you promote a price that is only part of the total price, the total price must also be displayed at least as prominently as the part price. This means that customers should be able to identify the total price in the advertisement just as easily as prices for all the other aspects.

 

So the law does not REQUIRE gratuities to be included, they may be itemized, subject to further rules.

 

So the lines you quote are likely doing it out of favor to local custom, and lines that are more transient are still allowed to do it either way. I did a dummy booking on X's website a bit ago, having changed my country to Australia and being redirected to the Australian Site (http://www.celebritycruises.com.au) and I was shown fare, taxes, gratuities separate. I did notice the total price was the same size and color font as the initial displayed price.

[woodyren]

Princess do not allow Aussies to book any of their cruises with a US travel agent. Unless you have a US address the agents will not take your booking. Not sure about P&O and I believe Carnival let you book US cruises with a US TA but not ones sailing in Australian waters (but happy to be corrected on that one).

 

Back to the topic.

I still don't understand why this so called mass removal of tips by Aussies & Kiwis doesn't cause issues for RCL and Celebrity forcing them to change their policy in line with the others have done for local Aussie bookings.

 

BUT

 

I do predict that there will be an increase of this occurring in those ships that charge in USD (from whatever level it is now) if the AUD continues to lose ground against the greenback. Some people may have booked their cruise in AUD quite a while ago without even thinking about their on board spend. This is not uncommon for first time cruisers (and with our growing market this is a significant amount of customers). Once they become aware they will have to reduce their costs. Particularly as many drinks are about $20 AUD with the current falling forex rate. For many sadly it will be the grats that look like to them to be the low hanging fruit.

 

They just see tips as an "American custom" they don't have to follow. In fact many Aussies have a dislike (perceived with little understanding for sure but real nonetheless) of the practice and try to resist being "Americanised". They blame the fact that tipping is now seeping in to our culture on "those bloody American tourists". They also don't read CC and have next to no understanding of how the crew is paid.

 

Not saying this is the right thing to do. Just trying to put some perspective on things.

[gergles]

From the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission

 

You do not need to include optional charges or extras or delivery charges – unless you are aware of a minimum delivery charge that must be paid in which case you can chose whether to include it in the total price or as a separate component.

 

So the law does not REQUIRE gratuities to be included, they may be itemized, subject to further rules.

Your (and many many many other people's) main argument in this thread is to imply that gratuities are mandatory (or should be considered mandatory) because that is how the staff are paid. Now you want to argue that they are optional so that X doesn't have to advertise them as part of the price.

 

It's one way or the other. It's deceptive to have a mandatory fee that isn't part of the price, period. This is what lead to airlines advertising $1*** fares that were actually $550. I would also take issue with your characterization of grats as 'optional' given that you are put on a Naughty List if you remove them and that if you book in Select Dining (and Traditional dining is mysteriously unavailable on tons of cruises as far as a year out) you are required to prepay them.

 

I don't have a problem with however X wants to pay the crew or structure the payment to their advantage. I have a problem with a high surprise fee tacked onto the bill and not being properly disclosed.

 

***Plus fuel surcharge, fees, other random BS, upcharges, and etc.

Edited August 4, 2015 by gergles

[cle-guy]

\

 

Back to the topic.

I still don't understand why this so called mass removal of tips by Aussies & Kiwis doesn't cause issues for RCL and Celebrity forcing them to change their policy in line with the others have done for local Aussie bookings.

 

I don't believe that Aussies and Kiwis "mass remove" tips as others suggest, I do believe there is likely a slightly higher percentage that do though versus other itineraries.

 

I think RCL and X - as they call relatively infrequently there and have a smaller fleet than the mega Carnival (Princess, P&O and Carnival) - so they run their itineraries from OZ same as any other itinerary, as they can rely on filling their few itineraries with people and don't care so much about the "sticker shock" .(which I agree 18% when you aren't used to it is a big freaky number, However, daily gratuities relative to the booking fare to the shipboard account are not 18%, they are $12.95 per person per day) or are fully engrained in the Non tipping culture of Oz. I think a significant number of their Oz passengers are likely loyal RCL/X guests who've sailed ships all over, and now are doing an Oz itinerary and flying in and out for it.

 

They are likely getting a large portion of non-Aussies on the ships versus the lines that are catering to them and doing AUD as on-board currency, and just including Grats in displayed fares.

[cle-guy]

Your (and many many many other people's) main argument in this thread is to imply that gratuities are mandatory (or should be considered mandatory) because that is how the staff are paid. Now you want to argue that they are optional so that X doesn't have to advertise them as part of the price.

 

It's one way or the other. It's deceptive to have a mandatory fee that isn't part of the price, period. This is what lead to airlines advertising $1*** fares that were actually $550. I would also take issue with your characterization of grats as 'optional' given that you are put on a Naughty List if you remove them and that if you book in Select Dining (and Traditional dining is mysteriously unavailable on tons of cruises as far as a year out) you are required to prepay them.

 

I don't have a problem with however X wants to pay the crew or structure the payment to their advantage. I have a problem with a high surprise fee tacked onto the bill and not being properly disclosed.

 

***Plus fuel surcharge, fees, other random BS, upcharges, and etc.

 

I've never said gratuities are a statutory requirement. I've held its an ETHICAL requirement. People can remove gratuities, yes indeed they can, yes they are technically optional. But they are not ETHICALLY optional. They are part of the culture and custom of the majority of cruise ships in operation on the high seas.

 

One can follow the letter of the law and sill be unethical.

 

Any one who has read this thread, also has no reason to remove them, or claim ignorance or claim nondisclosure, now that they know they pay the staff. So all of you have lost that argument now.

 

One can hardly say the addition of gratuities is a surprise. It's covered in the FAQ, in the What to expect section of website, the on board section, on cruise documents, and in the cruise contract and on Celebrity issued invoices and booking confirmations. That one chooses not to read these documents doesn't mean the disclosure wasn't made.

 

And as I said in the same message you are quoting me from, if you book X via the OZ site, gratuities DO show up on the itemization - "are disclosed", and they show on the invoice and booking confirmation, so it's not a surprise.

 

Celebrity has never charged the Fuel surcharge, I'm unsure if others have, so that's really not part of this either.

[icat2000]

 

People booking in Oz and NZ are directed to a different site, where they receive pricing for their residents, in a single number that includes taxes, fees, fare and gratuities when displayed, in AUD.

 

Considering Carinival has over 50 ships, RCL has over 20, that there are 7 ships in Oz, is a relatively insignificant number, especially af any are seasonal, and especially when compared to other markets like the Caribbean.

 

What it boils down to is cruise lines are being forced to include gratuities in cruise fares for bookers in Oz and NZ, yet display it separately for North American bookers...There must be some reason for this.....It can't be because of laws, since not all lines do it this way, so it must be because there is some issue with people and paying gratuities from OZ and NZ that warrants them making such changes in their pricing structure there but not here.

 

Not insignificant if you talking about the ships sailing downunder. Its done that way because Australians don't like the wait but there more, costs too be added on top. They rather just have a total price. Just like GST is included in the total price on the ticket.

 

I hate going to other countries and seeing the ticket price. And then you have to add on whatever taxes etc on top. So based on feedback, Princess Australia changed to suit the Australian market. Then Carnival changed to suit the Australian market with its two ships, so you could say to suit our culture.

 

I like it when its built into the fare. When I cruise outside i.e other places, I pre pay the grats. And if there is really outstanding service, I might give some extra.

 

I just wonder of the people who don't pre pay the grats and prefer to tip. How do you know that they aren't the stiffers. I know what the grats is per day x no days cruising = total. But I wonder how many who tip here and there don't actually reach that total. Food for thought.

Edited August 4, 2015 by icat2000

[Pat&Paul]

What do you tip for drinks when you go to a bar in the your home city? Or drinks in a nightclub? Or when ordering a drink in a restaurant?

 

I tip a buck a drink usually. So a 5 or 6 dollar drink gets a dollar tip. Just me. So about 20%?

 

Pat

[cle-guy]

I just wonder of the people who don't pre pay the grats and prefer to tip. How do you know that they aren't the stiffers. I know what the grats is per day x no days cruising = total. But I wonder how many who tip here and there don't actually reach that total. Food for thought.

 

On Celebrity (not positive, but I'd assume RCL works the same) if you do not "prepay tips" with your final payment before sailing, the daily gratuity amount is automatically applied to your on board SeaPass charge account on a daily basis. You have until 3 days prior to disembarkation to make adjustments to gratuities, after this time they can not be stopped or modified.

 

So the stiffers have to actually go out of their way to "stiff" the crew in that they must in person visit guest services and fill out a form to request the removal of the automatically billed daily gratuities.

[GUT2407]

I tip a buck a drink usually. So a 5 or 6 dollar drink gets a dollar tip. Just me. So about 20%?

 

Pat

 

Careful Pat on a $14 cocktail that's only about 7% and around here that's enough to get you called all sorts of names.

[GUT2407]

Can anyone give me one reason why the PAX who removes tps is called names like stiffer etc but the company that pays the staff peanuts AND then allows for the removal of gratuities isn't.:confused:

[icat2000]

Can anyone give me one reason why the PAX who removes tps is called names like stiffer etc but the company that pays the staff peanuts AND then allows for the removal of gratuities isn't.:confused:

 

Very good question. And may I follow it up with another question - why do people continue to cruise with a line who makes stiffing their staff possible???

Edited August 4, 2015 by icat2000

[Project_gal]

is very interesting to me. We have always given extra tips to our butler, waiter, asst waiter, stateroom attendant and their assistant. They have always accepted them with a thank you and a smile. We had asked if they pool those and have also been told no they do not. They took care of us, so they were allowed to keep the extra tip. We will ask again on our next cruise.

 

We have, also, many times been told by the assistant stateroom attendant that we must give his additional gratuity to the main stateroom attendant.

 

I was also interested to see that, when in Luminae on our latest cruise, all the envelopes we had handed out to our waiters, the sommelier and hostess were collected "backstage" unopened by the maitre d' and taken elsewhere. They were clearly our distinctive gold "Thank You" card envelopes. These were additional gratuities and we had also given the maitre d' an envelope containing additional gratuities for all the Luminae staff to whom we had not given individual additional gratuities.