Cruise safety in Middle East

[moniquet]

Today's events are very sad.

 

Our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone who have been impacted.

 

JB is right and this is what I have talked about starting with yesterday posts. What happened in Paris has happened in many places around the world on different scales. It has happened in our own backyards for those of us in the USA, and much too often in the past several years and also has happened in places from Europe to Australia.

 

Again thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families and friends who have already been impacted by todays horrific act.

 

Keith

 

Absolutely dreadful, all those innocent lives gone. Shocking scenes.

 

Yes, it can happen anywhere. However, if you saw my link on a previous post, can you tell me of any country except Egypt where foreign tourists have repeatedly been targeted for over twenty years? If we are looking at statistics Egypt must be the top of the list.

[Keith1010]

Absolutely dreadful, all those innocent lives gone. Shocking scenes.

 

Yes, it can happen anywhere. However, if you saw my link on a previous post, can you tell me of any country except Egypt where foreign tourists have repeatedly been targeted for over twenty years? If we are looking at statistics Egypt must be the top of the list.

 

There are many places around the world that tourists are targets and where I would feel much more unsafe than places that one would see on the original posters list.

 

Here's a few. I could list many more, including some in the USA. I didn't even list Africa but if one has sailed to some of the ports in Africa you will know what I am talking about.

 

Colombia (still exists in certain areas)

Russia

Brazil (certain areas)

Venezuela (certain areas)

Haiti

Jamaica

Mexico

Honduras

Belize

El Salvador

 

As tourists, we are targets in many areas of the world because tourists sometimes because tourists stick out in a crowd and other times because tourists can be very naive. I have seen that on our travels as I am sure many have.

 

And 20 years is not the issue. The issue is not only today but tomorrow. A few years ago Paris was not on the radar screen. How about what happened in Australia. How about the Taj Mahal Hotel in India. I was there just a few months before that horrific act of tourism occurred. Who would have known. Boston at the Marathon. NYC on 9/11. Yes there are places that I would and do avoid and places that I would only go on an organized tour and even a few places that we stay on the ship.

 

Anyway, as I've said in the end the most important opinion is our own opinion.

 

My only point is that often what is reported on 7x24 television is way over the top. Like most people I have grown tremendously from my travels and have learned a great deal more from that than from the media.

 

Keith

Edited November 14, 2015 by Keith1010

[moniquet]

When I say tourist targeted I mean by terrorists, of course tourists are a target in any tourist area in the world, mainly theft. Most of the places you mention have not had terrorist incidents against tourists.

 

I have been to Belize a few times. Found the people really friendly. Once walking in a quiet area by the sea a Policeman stopped and warned us there had been a robbery there the day before and a tourist had had a gold necklace snatched. Not the same as dozens being attacked with kaleshnikovs is it!

 

20 years is an issue with Egypt as terrorist attacks against tourists have been consistent up to the present year.

[John Bull]

When I say tourist targeted I mean by terrorists..... //

// ......20 years is an issue with Egypt as terrorist attacks against tourists have been consistent up to the present year.

 

Yes, I was going to agree with your original post, subject to that caveat.

 

I suspect that Egypt isn't likely to remain at the top of that list in the next few years, because its already-shaky tourist industry is going to be decimated by the aircraft bombing at Sharm.

For at least a few years it seems destined to join a number of other dangerous & violent places in the world which are not a danger to tourists - but only because there will be few, if any, tourists to target.

 

JB :)

[Keith1010]

When I say tourist targeted I mean by terrorists, of course tourists are a target in any tourist area in the world, mainly theft. Most of the places you mention have not had terrorist incidents against tourists.

 

I have been to Belize a few times. Found the people really friendly. Once walking in a quiet area by the sea a Policeman stopped and warned us there had been a robbery there the day before and a tourist had had a gold necklace snatched. Not the same as dozens being attacked with kaleshnikovs is it!

 

20 years is an issue with Egypt as terrorist attacks against tourists have been consistent up to the present year.

 

Actually most of the places I mentioned have had terrorists.

 

Just because they are not part of some major terrorist group that you have not heard of does not mean that it was not terrorism and it clearly is an act of terror.

 

As I mentioned from the get go most of the places on the OP list are actually safer than many other places in the world and I would feel much safer traveling to them than most of the places on my list.

 

The only one of the OP's list that I would likely stay on the ship today would be Egypt but there are so many other highlights on that itinerary that I would still take the cruise even if it meant staying on board for Egypt.

 

Oh well this is one we can agree to disagree.

 

In the meantime, it is so sad what happened in Paris as it was so said with the recent church murders in South Carolina. Each one is an act of terror. Disgraceful.

 

I wish in our lifetime we could have seen an end to this violence but as someone once told me there will always be terror in this world. So sad.

 

Keith

[happy trailer]

 

In the meantime, it is so sad what happened in Paris as it was so said with the recent church murders in South Carolina. Each one is an act of terror.

 

I've been watching and reading similar threads on CC over the past months, and mainly I've remained silent- because of mixed feelings, because of circumstances that may separate me a bit from others, but mainly because I was having some difficulty trying to express my thoughts and feelings. But Keith, your statement above put it all together for me precisely.

 

While both Paris and South Carolina were acts of terrorism, there is a very basic and important difference between them (and between Paris and almost all the shootings the US has experienced); it is the same difference as between South Carolina and 9/11-

 

There is a difference between terror and terrorism, especially what the world is experiencing from the likes of Al Quaida and now ISIS: attacks like the one in South Carolina are a personal form of hatred, aimed at the momentary killing of a particular group or ethnicity, while terrorist attacks like Paris are organized global based terrorism, aimed at changing the world.

 

You can go into a church in South Carolina, look around you, and try to determine if someone sitting in a pew might be filled with hatred and want to kill you. But if you are sitting in your local cafe, or standing at a bus stop, or shopping in your local grocery, you likely aren't even considering the possibility that someone is going to come in firing a gun.

 

The South Carolina killer wanted to kill that day. The Paris attackers were part of a directed unified terrorist nation, whose goal is the destruction of Western civilization.

 

You can conceivably prevent an attack in a church in the US by having security checks at the door, and maybe also armed guards within. But for now, the world doesn't have (or possibly isn't willing to have or to act on their ability) the means to prevent attacks like the ones in Paris.

 

I'm not sure if comparing the two is the product of naïveté, stubbornness, or the preference to go through life with blinders on.

 

Tourists outside (or even within) their own country don't have the training to be on alert for possible terrorists. Heck, I've even seen Israelis occasionally get lazy at home in that regard (although there is always someone to speak up and scold those who let their alertness slacken). At the most, tourists know to be on guard against pickpockets - and we all know that those who are on guard are still in the minority; I doubt that the typical tourist would even know what to feel suspicious of, if they even thought to be.

 

This is what I told my grandchildren, when they expressed fear at the latest (and newest) form of terror we have been experiencing here in Israel:

 

'It's OK to feel afraid. It's a very sad situation, and it is even OK to be angry. Know that there are people who care about you and your safety very much. And do not ever hesitate to talk about your feelings. Do what you are comfortable doing, and if you are afraid of going somewhere, that's OK. If you want someone to go with you, or you don't want to go at all, just ask.'

 

I'm hearing people on CC express their fears; I'm hearing people express their bravado; but only sometimes am I hearing people actually say, "I understand what you are saying, and it's OK."

 

We each will make our own decisions on where or when to go or not to go. It doesn't make you braver, or smarter, or more worldly if you travel, and it doesn't make you a coward or naive if you prefer not to travel. Expressions of bravado may make you feel better about yourself, and that's fine- but personally I think that a person who says 'I'm afraid to go there right now' is no less brave.

[Hlitner]

It does not take bars and locked doors to make a prison. Being imprisoned is also a state of mind and the goal of terrorism is to imprison all mankind. The degree to which each individual in a free society allows themselves to be imprisoned, it a personal choice. Some of us choose not to accept that type of imprisonment and continue to live our lives without being overcome by various fears, be it a fear of flying, fear of terrorism, fear of language barriers, or even the fear of missing a ship. The only guarantee in life is the ultimate end of life. We are all here for a limited period of time, and while many choose to spend part of that time in a self-imposed prison, many others choose to live free.

 

Hank

[happy trailer]

It does not take bars and locked doors to make a prison. Being imprisoned is also a state of mind and the goal of terrorism is to imprison all mankind. The degree to which each individual in a free society allows themselves to be imprisoned, it a personal choice. Some of us choose not to accept that type of imprisonment and continue to live our lives without being overcome by various fears, be it a fear of flying, fear of terrorism, fear of language barriers, or even the fear of missing a ship. The only guarantee in life is the ultimate end of life. We are all here for a limited period of time, and while many choose to spend part of that time in a self-imposed prison, many others choose to live free.

 

Hank

 

I think it's interesting that you equate fear of flying, of language barriers, and fear of missing a ship with fear of terrorism, Hank. It's seems extremely judgmental to me- which exactly what I was trying to point out in my post.

[cruisemom42]

....and "never the twain shall meet" as regards peoples' opinions and feelings about travel and terrorism. However, I did look up a few facts from a recent analysis of the actual risk of encountering terrorism while traveling:

 

-- According to the US Travel Organization, Americans took 2.1 billion international trips in 2014.

 

-- There were 19 reported American deaths overseas due to terrorism.

 

Using those statistics, Americans have a .0000009% chance of dying in a terrorist attack while traveling.

 

 

 

Some other statistics:

 

-- In the last five years you were four times more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist.

 

-- The Space Science Institute estimates that the odds of being killed by a terrorist attack is about the same as being hit by an asteroid.

 

 

 

While it's possible that 2015 numbers may slightly nudge up these numbers (or not), the risk is still very, very, very small.

[happy trailer]

Yes, Cynthia- and more Israelis are killed in car accidents than by terror attacks, but I would still never think to make light of any one's concerns about visiting here.

[Hlitner]

I think it's interesting that you equate fear of flying, of language barriers, and fear of missing a ship with fear of terrorism, Hank. It's seems extremely judgmental to me- which exactly what I was trying to point out in my post.

 

Words like "judgmental," "Offensive," etc. are overused and not used properly! There is nothing "judgmental" in anything I posted. It is simply stating a fact that fear drives many actions (or lack of action). No matter what the fear, it impacts on our behavior. Somebody does not get on a plane because they have a fear of flying. Or somebody does not get on a plane because they have a fear of terrorism. Either way, they have taken the same action (not to get on that plane). That is not judging anyone (except perhaps in your mind) but simply stating factual actions. The other day I witnessed an interesting conversation where a friend walked away from another person because they were smoking. The smoker quickly walked back to that person and asked if he was judging her because she smokes. The response was, "I am not judging you because you smoke but simply getting away from you because the smoke stinks!"

 

It is the same with cruising. If one decides not to get off a ship at a particular port because they cannot (or did not) book an organized tour, or if that same person decides not to get off the ship because they fear missing the ship....the action is exactly the same. They stay on the ship.

 

Hank

Edited November 14, 2015 by Hlitner

[moniquet]

Hmmm....statistics. Did you know you are more likely to get murdered by a member of your own family on Christmas Day.:D as the saying goes, statistics are much like a drunk uses a lamppost for support, not illumination.

 

Anyway, for the foreseeable future I definitely shall not be visiting Egypt, Tunisia or most of the Middle East. Dubai seems safe but the resort is awful, hated it. Will stick to the Caribbean and Florida. Whatever the stats may say.:cool:

[Keith1010]

Ruth, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Like most things in the end our own option is what counts. I 100% agree with you that choosing to visit sites or not visit sites does not make on brave or not brave or I would add smart or foolish.

 

My belief is that these are still acts of terror and my point is the odds of being in the line of fire are as great in the USA as they are in so many places around the world.

Interestingly enough in many states you are allowed to carry concealed weapons inside places including schools and universities so even if money was not an issue (and it is) securing many of these places would not address issues such as being able to bring weapons in many places.

 

Keith

[sail7seas]

I've been watching and reading similar threads on CC over the past months, and mainly I've remained silent- because of mixed feelings, because of circumstances that may separate me a bit from others, but mainly because I was having some difficulty trying to express my thoughts and feelings. But Keith, your statement above put it all together for me precisely.

 

While both Paris and South Carolina were acts of terrorism, there is a very basic and important difference between them (and between Paris and almost all the shootings the US has experienced); it is the same difference as between South Carolina and 9/11-

 

There is a difference between terror and terrorism, especially what the world is experiencing from the likes of Al Quaida and now ISIS: attacks like the one in South Carolina are a personal form of hatred, aimed at the momentary killing of a particular group or ethnicity, while terrorist attacks like Paris are organized global based terrorism, aimed at changing the world.

 

You can go into a church in South Carolina, look around you, and try to determine if someone sitting in a pew might be filled with hatred and want to kill you. But if you are sitting in your local cafe, or standing at a bus stop, or shopping in your local grocery, you likely aren't even considering the possibility that someone is going to come in firing a gun.

 

The South Carolina killer wanted to kill that day. The Paris attackers were part of a directed unified terrorist nation, whose goal is the destruction of Western civilization.

 

You can conceivably prevent an attack in a church in the US by having security checks at the door, and maybe also armed guards within. But for now, the world doesn't have (or possibly isn't willing to have or to act on their ability) the means to prevent attacks like the ones in Paris.

 

I'm not sure if comparing the two is the product of naïveté, stubbornness, or the preference to go through life with blinders on.

 

Tourists outside (or even within) their own country don't have the training to be on alert for possible terrorists. Heck, I've even seen Israelis occasionally get lazy at home in that regard (although there is always someone to speak up and scold those who let their alertness slacken). At the most, tourists know to be on guard against pickpockets - and we all know that those who are on guard are still in the minority; I doubt that the typical tourist would even know what to feel suspicious of, if they even thought to be.

 

This is what I told my grandchildren, when they expressed fear at the latest (and newest) form of terror we have been experiencing here in Israel:

 

'It's OK to feel afraid. It's a very sad situation, and it is even OK to be angry. Know that there are people who care about you and your safety very much. And do not ever hesitate to talk about your feelings. Do what you are comfortable doing, and if you are afraid of going somewhere, that's OK. If you want someone to go with you, or you don't want to go at all, just ask.'

 

I'm hearing people on CC express their fears; I'm hearing people express their bravado; but only sometimes am I hearing people actually say, "I understand what you are saying, and it's OK."

 

We each will make our own decisions on where or when to go or not to go. It doesn't make you braver, or smarter, or more worldly if you travel, and it doesn't make you a coward or naive if you prefer not to travel. Expressions of bravado may make you feel better about yourself, and that's fine- but personally I think that a person who says 'I'm afraid to go there right now' is no less brave.

 

I think it's interesting that you equate fear of flying, of language barriers, and fear of missing a ship with fear of terrorism, Hank. It's seems extremely judgmental to me- which exactly what I was trying to point out in my post.

 

 

Magnificent posts.

I had decided I was finished with this thread and did not intend to return until I saw you had posted. I wanted to read what you had to say and I am very glad I did.

 

Of all people, living where you do, you know of what you speak. Israelis present with such joy of life and will to live life as normally as possible under difficult circumstances. What a wise woman with wise words. Your granddaughter is so fortunate to have you in her life.

 

Be safe and well and all good wishes to your family and loved ones.

 

(I have assumed you are a woman and hope I am not mistaken. If so, kindly accept my apologies.)

 

Edited November 14, 2015 by sail7seas

[John Bull]

What I don't understand is why those who come down firmly on the side of 'go' seem so vehement in dismissing those who choose otherwise. What do they care if some of us choose to not go? Why such firmness in their 'side is right'? :confused:

 

Just read through the posts with an open mind.

You will see all the insinuations.

 

The subtlety of 'do you understand' asked more than once is evident on a careful read.

 

 

Finished on this thread, S7S?

Not before finishing what you started, please ;)

 

If you read through the posts you will see that you have been asked more than once to explain your remarks in that first quote, aimed at those on the side of "go", and which I found offensive.

I'm guessing that the second quote was intended to provide an answer, but was way too vague for a simpleton like me - it didn't provide an answer and came up with more derogatory comments, which I'm guessing were aimed at Keith.

So again can I ask for a simple explanation for your stance in that first post.

And where you see any insinuations, or any subtlety in Keith's asking "do you understand".

And indeed where that was asked "more than once."

 

Please, an answer to tidy up your loose ends before leaving the thread would oblige.

 

Many thanks

 

JB :)

[sail7seas]

I don't wish to argue and I have no need to justify my personal choices.

Yes, I am finished with the aggressiveness that seems to be developing here.

 

I genuinely wish all here wonderful adventures trotting around the world and hope all return home safely. I cannot be more sincere in that wish.

 

[John Bull]

I don't wish to argue and I have no need to justify my personal choices.

Yes, I am finished with the aggressiveness that seems to be developing here.

 

 

I wasn't asking you to justify your choices or to argue.

You accused those who disagree with you of being vehement, dismissive, & making insinuations (?????) that I see nowhere on this thread, and several of us have asked you to explain why you made those comments.

 

Can you not see that it is you who has been aggressive by making those accusations, and have been dismissive by not explaining why you made them?

If you're not prepared to answer, so be it.

I won't ask again.

 

JB :mad:

[celebrity]

I've been watching and reading similar threads on CC over the past months, and mainly I've remained silent- because of mixed feelings, because of circumstances that may separate me a bit from others, but mainly because I was having some difficulty trying to express my thoughts and feelings. But Keith, your statement above put it all together for me precisely.

 

While both Paris and South Carolina were acts of terrorism, there is a very basic and important difference between them (and between Paris and almost all the shootings the US has experienced); it is the same difference as between South Carolina and 9/11-

 

There is a difference between terror and terrorism, especially what the world is experiencing from the likes of Al Quaida and now ISIS: attacks like the one in South Carolina are a personal form of hatred, aimed at the momentary killing of a particular group or ethnicity, while terrorist attacks like Paris are organized global based terrorism, aimed at changing the world.

 

You can go into a church in South Carolina, look around you, and try to determine if someone sitting in a pew might be filled with hatred and want to kill you. But if you are sitting in your local cafe, or standing at a bus stop, or shopping in your local grocery, you likely aren't even considering the possibility that someone is going to come in firing a gun.

 

The South Carolina killer wanted to kill that day. The Paris attackers were part of a directed unified terrorist nation, whose goal is the destruction of Western civilization.

 

You can conceivably prevent an attack in a church in the US by having security checks at the door, and maybe also armed guards within. But for now, the world doesn't have (or possibly isn't willing to have or to act on their ability) the means to prevent attacks like the ones in Paris.

 

I'm not sure if comparing the two is the product of naïveté, stubbornness, or the preference to go through life with blinders on.

 

Tourists outside (or even within) their own country don't have the training to be on alert for possible terrorists. Heck, I've even seen Israelis occasionally get lazy at home in that regard (although there is always someone to speak up and scold those who let their alertness slacken). At the most, tourists know to be on guard against pickpockets - and we all know that those who are on guard are still in the minority; I doubt that the typical tourist would even know what to feel suspicious of, if they even thought to be.

 

This is what I told my grandchildren, when they expressed fear at the latest (and newest) form of terror we have been experiencing here in Israel:

 

'It's OK to feel afraid. It's a very sad situation, and it is even OK to be angry. Know that there are people who care about you and your safety very much. And do not ever hesitate to talk about your feelings. Do what you are comfortable doing, and if you are afraid of going somewhere, that's OK. If you want someone to go with you, or you don't want to go at all, just ask.'

 

I'm hearing people on CC express their fears; I'm hearing people express their bravado; but only sometimes am I hearing people actually say, "I understand what you are saying, and it's OK."

 

We each will make our own decisions on where or when to go or not to go. It doesn't make you braver, or smarter, or more worldly if you travel, and it doesn't make you a coward or naive if you prefer not to travel. Expressions of bravado may make you feel better about yourself, and that's fine- but personally I think that a person who says 'I'm afraid to go there right now' is no less brave.

 

Well said!

We have a Med cruise booked for next year and after hearing about the horrific attacks in Paris, my husband announced he won't go.

I realize that it's a knee jerk reaction that may

change or not but I must respect his decision.

He worked 18 hrs a day at Ground Zero wearing a gas mask and saw first hand the carnage

that the rest of the world watched on TV.

No comparison in my book.

We lost 4 friends in the towers and saw the funeral processions that went on for months at our local cemetery.

You can throw all the statistics in the world at him, but unless you have walked in his shoes,

you cannot know the horror.

If he elects to cancel, I will likely go with someone else which he fully supports.

So sad that we even have to discuss this.

[celebrity]

Stan excellent post. You make some very valid points.

 

Also Sail7seas - It was not my intention to say that the people caught up in the Paris tradegy were unaware or unobservant. I'm sorry, if it came across that way.

 

I was trying to say that in any travel situation you need to be aware and observant of your surroundings especially when your not in familiar terriority.

 

I know your heart was in the right place with your post.

However, the Paris attacks are a game changer.

Are we supposed to keep one eye on the stage at a concert and the other on a potential suicide bomber that may have entered the venue?

As a New Yorker, we have lived with the the VERY REAL knowledge that we have a bulls eye on

our backs. Talk to us and we will tell you that we know it will happen again.

Our mantra is: If you see something, say something.

 

We should not have to live this way, but that is our reality.

[Keith1010]

So sad that we even have to discuss this.

 

Your final sentence hits home with me.

 

When the Soviet Union Collapsed I thought that the last issue was the Middle East with respect to Israel and Palestine and neighboring countries. At that point I thought after they cam so close to a resolution that it would happen within years and then we could live in peace and harmony across the world.

 

Never in my wildest dreams did I think we would be here today both with respect to terrorism around the world, issues about Nuclear Weapons, and even gun violence and terrorist acts (Oklahoma City Tragedy, 9/11, Boston Bombing, Killings at Schools, Movie Theaters, Shopping Malls). I thought in the 1980's that there was a chance of a Nuclear War and just thought that after the collapse of the Soviet Union that all would be well.

 

Someone told me that there will always be bad people, and I guess they are right.

 

It is a sad state of affairs. One would have only hoped that by now we would truly live in a civilized world.

 

The good news today is that because of airplanes, cruise ships and other a cost that when one takes account inflation makes travel so much cheaper than it was many years ago, many of us have had the opportunity to visit places that was not possible in previous generations. We have been blessed to see places I thought not possible. Speaking for myself, my wife and I have grown so very much from these experiences.

 

The bad news is that it doesn't take many people to commit horrific crimes and humanity. And it might only get worse overtime including dirty bombs.

 

We will continue to travel but it is so sad that we live at a time that we have to take off shoes at airports, worry about where the next horrific act will take place, and see the destruction of historic items and the senseless killing of innocent victims.

 

My wife and I will continue to travel because in the end we don't know when the final chapter will be written about us. I also don't want to see terror succeed and when we change our travel plans or act a lot differently than my view is we are giving into the terrorists.

 

But as I've said throughout this thread in the end each person has to make the decision that works best for them. For example, some people fly on the day of their cruise. We don't. Others will get on just any type of aircraft. We don't as there are specific airlines and aircraft I will not fly because of safety concerns. Still others will do other things that we just don't do with safety in mind or other reasons such as missing the ship, or plane or whatever that might be.

 

I do my best to be as informed as I can. And yes, I do my best to share other views on items such as in my responses to the original poster and subsequent posts. Little did I know that only a day or so after my comment about acts of terror can easily happen in places such as France when least expected as opposed to say Oman or Jordan that my words would come true. These are words that I wish never came true.

 

What I do love about Cruise Travel is that if we are stopping at a place that we have concerns (and there are some) we can just stay on the ship. The other thing I love about Cruise Travel is that we have seen many more places than we ever could have seen by any other means of travel and on top of that there are some places that we thought would be so so or not so good and they have turned out to be gems and there have also been other places that we thought would be great and they were far less interesting than we thought.

 

In the end, each person should do what they think is right for themselves and respect those who take a different course.

 

One thing about tragedies is that often they lead to change. I hope and pray that in time that something good will come about from these senseless tragedies not only for the sake of the world we live in today but for our children's and their children's generations and for the other generations that will follow them. I can only hope and pray for that.

 

In the meantime, on a personal level, my wife and I will do somethings to help those in France following this tragedy as we've done in some other related tragedies as so many from around the world did for the USA in the days, weeks, and months following 9/11.

 

Wishing everyone here and around the world safety in all they do, including travel.

 

Keith