Those people sitting out muster

[RuthC]

HAL now has the 3-tier approach, but nobody follows it. First alarm bell, you go to your cabin and wait for instructions. Then on the second or third alarm you actually go to the muster station (I forget exactly how it works).

The 3-tier approach is

1.) first alarm. Stay where you are, and await further instructions.

2.) second alarm. Follow instructions to return to your cabin. Dress in warm clothes. Gather passport, or other ID, and medications. Wait there for further instructions.

3.) third alarm. Follow instructions to proceed to muster station.

 

When we had a fire on my last cruise, the first alarm was sounded. I will say that as far as I saw, everyone followed instructions to stay put. We didn't know how far we could get, due to fire doors being closed, if we had attempted to go anywhere.

 

The Captain came on, and gave instructions as to what we were expected to do. If, in a real emergency, our lives depend on everyone following instructions, I hope people do. Or, that those who don't are redirected by those in charge.

[iflyrc5]

The 3-tier approach is

1.) first alarm. Stay where you are, and await further instructions.

2.) second alarm. Follow instructions to return to your cabin. Dress in warm clothes. Gather passport, or other ID, and medications. Wait there for further instructions.

3.) third alarm. Follow instructions to proceed to muster station.

 

When we had a fire on my last cruise, the first alarm was sounded. I will say that as far as I saw, everyone followed instructions to stay put. We didn't know how far we could get, due to fire doors being closed, if we had attempted to go anywhere.

 

The Captain came on, and gave instructions as to what we were expected to do. If, in a real emergency, our lives depend on everyone following instructions, I hope people do. Or, that those who don't are redirected by those in charge.

 

My observation is that well over 50% do not pay attention to the directions given during the Muster Drill. On our last several cruises we have had a cabin that is less than a 1 minute walk from our life boat. We pay attention to the alarms and follow the CDs direction which states we are to stay in the cabin (we are usually unpacking anyway)until he has completed the 3rd alarm instructions. We leave the cabin immediately after he finishes his announcement and yet we find that we are one of the last people to arrive at the life boat. Guests are either ignoring the instructions or just don't care and do their own thing. So what will happen in a real emergency?

 

I also wonder - if we had a real emergency that required us to put on our life jackets and go to the life boat station (we have been on several cruise were we had the first alarm) and it was night, 25 foot seas, temperatures around 30 degrees F, rain/sleet. How are the folks in wheel chairs, walkers, scooters, etc. going to handle that environment when they have trouble standing on the deck at port in warm and sunny weather? Not trying to be judgmental here. Just wondering if others have thought about this situation.

[RuthC]

I also wonder - if we had a real emergency that required us to put on our life jackets and go to the life boat station (we have been on several cruise were we had the first alarm) and it was night, 25 foot seas, temperatures around 30 degrees F, rain/sleet. How are the folks in wheel chairs, walkers, scooters, etc. going to handle that environment when they have trouble standing on the deck at port in warm and sunny weather? Not trying to be judgmental here. Just wondering if others have thought about this situation.

Something along those lines was a real concern for me during the fire I mentioned in my earlier post. I was at late dinner, on the same deck as the muster station. My cabin was two decks down, closer to the forward elevators. I wondered, if we every got to stage 2, would I be able to get down two decks, and so much of the length of the ship. Or would I be better off forgoing my passport and meds to stay on the same deck.

I had my scooter with me, but the way people cut in front when not an emergency I didn't know if I could go the distance.

 

Then, there was the concern if I would be able to get back up two decks, and get outside. Scooters don't get out to the promenade deck very well, and get back in even less easily.

 

Fortunately, the fire was brought under control, put out, and I never had to find out how this would play.

[Oak Hill Cruisers]

On our last cruise on MSC Splendida (in the Mediterranean), they made us bring our life vests. But, since this cruise was run like a bus service with PAX getting on & off in every port, only a small fraction of PAX which were embarking were in the drills. Further, the drills were in a lounge and we were able to sit down.

 

Personally, we kind of miss the old days gathering outside with our life vests donned. It made us think that we were not mere tourists but kind of like we were 'In the Navy'. ;-)

[AV8rix]

I also wonder - if we had a real emergency that required us to put on our life jackets and go to the life boat station (we have been on several cruise were we had the first alarm) and it was night, 25 foot seas, temperatures around 30 degrees F, rain/sleet. How are the folks in wheel chairs, walkers, scooters, etc. going to handle that environment when they have trouble standing on the deck at port in warm and sunny weather? Not trying to be judgmental here. Just wondering if others have thought about this situation.

 

Yeah, me! That's why I submitted post #12 on this thread. I believe that many of the severely-impaired folks that I've seen on the ships either are in denial about such a thing ever happening or are trusting in the extremely low statistical probability that it will occur. And that's why I'm thinking that when impaired mobility happens to me -- as it surely will -- I will probably quit cruising.

[Cinder Again]

I used to travel with my mom who needed a wheelchair. We took drills seriously, because if there's a need, there's little time to figure things out. I remember a lifeboat captain singling my mom out. He said, "After I get on, you will be next" He made a note of her cabin number, and then began the drill. Later, we got a call from the front desk asking her questions to determine her ability to walk at least a bit. That was before the days where you might have 3-4 wheelchairs/scooters/ walkers on each lifeboat. In a real emergency, I doubt there's space/time to load those scooters, I wonder if anyone has asked what the protocol would be?

[3rdGenCunarder]

I used to travel with my mom who needed a wheelchair. We took drills seriously, because if there's a need, there's little time to figure things out. I remember a lifeboat captain singling my mom out. He said, "After I get on, you will be next" He made a note of her cabin number, and then began the drill. Later, we got a call from the front desk asking her questions to determine her ability to walk at least a bit. That was before the days where you might have 3-4 wheelchairs/scooters/ walkers on each lifeboat. In a real emergency, I doubt there's space/time to load those scooters, I wonder if anyone has asked what the protocol would be?

 

[bold is mine] You're absolutely right and EVERYONE should look at drills that way! I'm impressed with the careful attention your mom got.

 

I don't think wheelchairs or scooters would go onto the lifeboat--not enough room and not enough time. Crew would probably just get the person onboard and onto the benches.

[HokiePoq]

Nope; K-dam is the only one due to her design and the subsequent lack of "outside muster space" because of where/how her lifeboats are stowed. HAL has always used the philosophy that you should muster below/adjacent to your actual lifeboat station, as opposed to interior lounges that some other cruise lines use. There are pros and cons for/against both philosophies

 

I've always felt that HAL does a much better job than any of the other lines we cruise with the muster drill. You actually know where your lifeboat is and you are prepared to find it in case of emergency. On Celebrity you are assigned to a lounge where there is not even enough room for everyone to sit down. I cannot imagine the chaos that would prevail in case of a real emergency. Same for NCL and RCCL but there has at least been room to sit down. My cane with a seat has come in handy at the times when I've had mobility issues. I understand folks needing accomodations but I hope HAL doesn't change the entire procedure.

Edited January 12, 2017 by HokiePoq

[snaebyllej]

I've always felt that HAL does a much better job than any of the other lines we cruise with the muster drill. You actually know where your lifeboat is and you are prepared to find it in case of emergency. On Celebrity you are assigned to a lounge where there is not even enough room for everyone to sit down. I cannot imagine the chaos that would prevail in case of a real emergency. Same for NCL and RCCL but there has at least been room to sit down. My cane with a seat has come in handy at the times when I've had mobility issues. I understand folks needing accomodations but I hope HAL doesn't change the entire procedure.

 

The problem is, there is no such thing as YOUR lifeboat. Depending on circumstances (whether the ship is listing, where a fire is, etc.), YOUR lifeboat may not be usable. They can put you in any boat or in a raft. The lines that have you muster elsewhere are having you wait somewhere safer and more comfortable until they figure out 1. if you'll need to evacuate at all (possibly many hours later, in hot/cold/wet weather) and 2. where you will be sent to do it.

[FrankNJ]

I think there are batteries in those hand held scanners . I wonder what happens to the people who NEVER show up for the lifeboat / muster drill ? On Dec 14 Koningsdam the captain announced after a little while " We are only missing 110 people ". So , I wonder what does happen to those who "sleep " through the drill ?

[RuthC]

The lines that have you muster elsewhere are having you wait somewhere safer and more comfortable until they figure out ....

Unless, of course, the fire (or other emergency) happens to be inside---where your muster station is located.

 

With HAL's new 3-tier approach, you aren't being directed to the lifeboats until the decision has been made to evacuate. In that case, you won't be standing outside for hours.

[chengkp75]

The reason some ships have indoor musters has nothing whatsoever to do with passenger safety or comfort. It is just as John says, due to the design of the ship maximizing the internal, revenue generating space, the external, non-revenue space, like the promenade deck, has been reduced to the point where the space no longer meets the class societies' requirements for ingress, egress, and space to move past.

 

Remember, the passenger muster, is just that, a muster or an accountability. It is designed to get all passengers to known locations, under direction of crew, and to have that crew quickly determine whether anyone is missing. It really has nothing to do with lifeboats, and the reason the IMO prefers outdoor musters (unless the open decks are too small) is just that, you are outdoors, and not potentially trapped in an interior space. Folks, this is an emergency, and your comfort is way, way down the scale for the crew, in comparison to your safety.

 

As for wheelchairs and scooters, no, they would not be loaded into a lifeboat. The person would be lifted by crew into the boat, and seated where needed. If you've ever looked into a lifeboat (at NCL we always had one at the rail during passenger drill for viewing), you would see how tight the space is. The IMO requirement for space in a lifeboat is based on a person weighing 75kg (165 lb.), and the seating area is 18" wide x 24" front to back.

 

The sobering facts of the Concordia was not the lack of a passenger muster before sailing, or of people not knowing where to go, but the failure of Schettino to call the muster in appropriate time. Had this been done at the proper time, those folks who didn't know where to go could have been sorted out, and I seriously doubt there would have been any loss of life. When dealing with untrained personnel, which cruise ship passengers are, you need to add time to your estimate of how long things will take to get accomplished, so the Captain needs to think ahead further.

[navybankerteacher]

I used to travel with my mom who needed a wheelchair. We took drills seriously, because if there's a need, there's little time to figure things out. I remember a lifeboat captain singling my mom out. He said, "After I get on, you will be next" He made a note of her cabin number, and then began the drill. Later, we got a call from the front desk asking her questions to determine her ability to walk at least a bit. That was before the days where you might have 3-4 wheelchairs/scooters/ walkers on each lifeboat. In a real emergency, I doubt there's space/time to load those scooters, I wonder if anyone has asked what the protocol would be?

 

"...YOU MIGHT HAVE 3-4 WHEELCHAIRS/SCOOTERS/WALKERS ON EACH LIFEBOAT..."; "...LOAD THESE SCOOTERS..." are you kidding. Just one person's scooter would mean that three of us could not bring all our luggage.

[3rdGenCunarder]

The reason some ships have indoor musters has nothing whatsoever to do with passenger safety or comfort. It is just as John says, due to the design of the ship maximizing the internal, revenue generating space, the external, non-revenue space, like the promenade deck, has been reduced to the point where the space no longer meets the class societies' requirements for ingress, egress, and space to move past.

 

Remember, the passenger muster, is just that, a muster or an accountability. It is designed to get all passengers to known locations, under direction of crew, and to have that crew quickly determine whether anyone is missing. It really has nothing to do with lifeboats, and the reason the IMO prefers outdoor musters (unless the open decks are too small) is just that, you are outdoors, and not potentially trapped in an interior space. Folks, this is an emergency, and your comfort is way, way down the scale for the crew, in comparison to your safety.

 

As for wheelchairs and scooters, no, they would not be loaded into a lifeboat. The person would be lifted by crew into the boat, and seated where needed. If you've ever looked into a lifeboat (at NCL we always had one at the rail during passenger drill for viewing), you would see how tight the space is. The IMO requirement for space in a lifeboat is based on a person weighing 75kg (165 lb.), and the seating area is 18" wide x 24" front to back.

 

The sobering facts of the Concordia was not the lack of a passenger muster before sailing, or of people not knowing where to go, but the failure of Schettino to call the muster in appropriate time. Had this been done at the proper time, those folks who didn't know where to go could have been sorted out, and I seriously doubt there would have been any loss of life. When dealing with untrained personnel, which cruise ship passengers are, you need to add time to your estimate of how long things will take to get accomplished, so the Captain needs to think ahead further.

 

You're right that the muster local depends on the design of the ship. But the lines that have indoor musters tell passengers that this is for their comfort, whether it really is or not. Indoor muster t works perfectly on QM2 because the promenade/boat deck is all public space--restaurants, gym, buffet. So there's lots of room to keep people indoors but just steps away from the lifeboats.

 

One thing that worries me on HAL is how crowded the deck is during muster drill--and that's without the extra bulk of the life vests. I used to wonder how on earth the crew could ready the boats with so little room to move around in. But perhaps that's part of the 3-step approach. The crew could work on the boats just before people were called to stage 3, or while they were moving to the muster station?

[OlsSalt]

The reason some ships have indoor musters has nothing whatsoever to do with passenger safety or comfort. It is just as John says, due to the design of the ship maximizing the internal, revenue generating space, the external, non-revenue space, like the promenade deck, has been reduced to the point where the space no longer meets the class societies' requirements for ingress, egress, and space to move past.

 

Remember, the passenger muster, is just that, a muster or an accountability. It is designed to get all passengers to known locations, under direction of crew, and to have that crew quickly determine whether anyone is missing. It really has nothing to do with lifeboats, and the reason the IMO prefers outdoor musters (unless the open decks are too small) is just that, you are outdoors, and not potentially trapped in an interior space. Folks, this is an emergency, and your comfort is way, way down the scale for the crew, in comparison to your safety.

 

As for wheelchairs and scooters, no, they would not be loaded into a lifeboat. The person would be lifted by crew into the boat, and seated where needed. If you've ever looked into a lifeboat (at NCL we always had one at the rail during passenger drill for viewing), you would see how tight the space is. The IMO requirement for space in a lifeboat is based on a person weighing 75kg (165 lb.), and the seating area is 18" wide x 24" front to back.

 

The sobering facts of the Concordia was not the lack of a passenger muster before sailing, or of people not knowing where to go, but the failure of Schettino to call the muster in appropriate time. Had this been done at the proper time, those folks who didn't know where to go could have been sorted out, and I seriously doubt there would have been any loss of life. When dealing with untrained personnel, which cruise ship passengers are, you need to add time to your estimate of how long things will take to get accomplished, so the Captain needs to think ahead further.

 

Bravo, thank you for your always excellent insights. Yes, we easily forget the muster is also for crew training, because we will greatly depend on them knowing their jobs ...perfectly .... if or when. We need to nod them thanks, as we rumble and grumble off.

[chengkp75]

You're right that the muster local depends on the design of the ship. But the lines that have indoor musters tell passengers that this is for their comfort, whether it really is or not. Indoor muster t works perfectly on QM2 because the promenade/boat deck is all public space--restaurants, gym, buffet. So there's lots of room to keep people indoors but just steps away from the lifeboats.

 

One thing that worries me on HAL is how crowded the deck is during muster drill--and that's without the extra bulk of the life vests. I used to wonder how on earth the crew could ready the boats with so little room to move around in. But perhaps that's part of the 3-step approach. The crew could work on the boats just before people were called to stage 3, or while they were moving to the muster station?

 

I'm not sure how it works for crew using HAL's 3-step. With most ships, the crew in general (as opposed to the fire teams, and first responder teams) will not report to their emergency stations until the passenger muster alarm is sounded (this signal is actually the signal for fire and general emergency)(not all crew respond to the "code" messages). Those tasked to prepare lifeboats would arrive within a few minutes, and most of the work is done on platforms above the promenade deck where the boat is stowed. Basically they will trip a couple of pelican hooks on cables holding to boats from swaying, and then lower the boat to the embarkation deck. The davit is equipped with "tricing pendants" which will bring the boat next to the deck, and prevent swinging until released (when the boat is loaded and ready to lower). The real goal is to get the boats to the deck before many passengers are around, as the davit arms, while swinging out, can interfere with walking between muster stations.

[Copper10-8]

I'm not sure how it works for crew using HAL's 3-step. With most ships, the crew in general (as opposed to the fire teams, and first responder teams) will not report to their emergency stations until the passenger muster alarm is sounded (this signal is actually the signal for fire and general emergency)(not all crew respond to the "code" messages). Those tasked to prepare lifeboats would arrive within a few minutes, and most of the work is done on platforms above the promenade deck where the boat is stowed. Basically they will trip a couple of pelican hooks on cables holding to boats from swaying, and then lower the boat to the embarkation deck. The davit is equipped with "tricing pendants" which will bring the boat next to the deck, and prevent swinging until released (when the boat is loaded and ready to lower). The real goal is to get the boats to the deck before many passengers are around, as the davit arms, while swinging out, can interfere with walking between muster stations.

 

Thanks Cheng! on HAL, it's done pretty much the same; the 1st officer Deck, who doubles as safety officer, would be in charge and, assisted by the bosun, asst. bosun and a group of sailors, would take the lashings and skates of the boats, and lower them to embarkation/boat deck. This would be done, depending on circumstances of course, prior to the 3rd alarm/the general emergency alarm being sounded

 

When this is done for routine tendering (no sounding of the alarms; of course in that case), the areas leading to, and underneath the boats, will be cordoned off. And yes, like NCL, no scooters, wheel chairs, walkers, luggage, etc. will go into the boats in a real emergency. The interior of a dedicated lifeboat is much different than that of a tender/lifeboat

[chengkp75]

Thanks Cheng! on HAL, it's done pretty much the same; the 1st officer Deck, who doubles as safety officer, would be in charge and, assisted by the bosun, asst. bosun and a group of sailors, would take the lashings and skates of the boats, and lower them to embarkation/boat deck. This would be done, depending on circumstances of course, prior to the 3rd alarm/the general emergency alarm being sounded

 

When this is done for routine tendering (no sounding of the alarms; of course in that case), the areas leading to, and underneath the boats, will be cordoned off. And yes, like NCL, no scooters, wheel chairs, walkers, luggage, etc. will go into the boats in a real emergency. The interior of a dedicated lifeboat is much different than that of a tender/lifeboat

 

We would have two 3rd Officers be the Port/Stbd Deck Officers, in charge of all boats on each side, and then the deck crew was the primary crew for rigging out the boats. Most folks don't realize that the crew taking the muster will not get in the boat with them, nor will the deck crew, the trained mariners be the boat crew. Lifeboat crew are waiters, bartenders, cooks and dishwashers. I know that HAL does a lot to train the boat crews (one of Capt. Albert's jobs I think), not sure if they obtain Lifeboatman certification for them, but many lines don't, and the boat crews are only trained onboard.

 

Once the passengers are away in the boats, if the Captain decides it is necessary to abandon ship, the crew will be signaled to leave their emergency stations and go to their abandon ship stations, which will be generally in the same locations as the passenger muster stations, under the now empty boat davits, where the liferaft stations are. They will then deploy, board, and launch the rafts.

[david,Mississauga]

The reason some ships have indoor musters has nothing whatsoever to do with passenger safety or comfort. It is just as John says, due to the design of the ship maximizing the internal, revenue generating space, the external, non-revenue space, like the promenade deck, has been reduced to the point where the space no longer meets the class societies' requirements for ingress, egress, and space to move past.

...

 

Something I noticed starting in the early 1970s was that all British-registered ships that we travelled on had the indoor muster stations. Although I can't recall if that was the case on our first crossing on the QE2, but I specifically recall a P&O liner voyage on Oriana in 1974 and thinking it made sense to muster inside and not be assigned a lifeboat which may be inoperable due to the potential listing of the ship. Our comfort at muster was not mentioned. The P&O ships had plenty of promenade space. This style of muster was noted an all other British ships including Union-Castle and Cunard. The promenade of the Queen Mary 2 is as wide as any I have ever seen, even though it does narrow in a few places fore and aft.

 

I am pleased to hear that the scanning of cards is now the way HAL records attendance at muster. We found the old-style roll call on the Noordam a year and a half ago to be inefficient. The young woman at the boat station next to ours had a voice three times louder than the man who was calling names at ours. We barely heard our names.

 

On our voyages on all lines in the 1970s (and possibly into the 80s) muster was held on the morning after departure. I am pleased that it is now held prior to sailing. I well remember our first HAL cruise when we all gathered on deck in the cold Atlantic rain.

[Lefty Writer]

We would have two 3rd Officers be the Port/Stbd Deck Officers, in charge of all boats on each side, and then the deck crew was the primary crew for rigging out the boats. Most folks don't realize that the crew taking the muster will not get in the boat with them, nor will the deck crew, the trained mariners be the boat crew. Lifeboat crew are waiters, bartenders, cooks and dishwashers. I know that HAL does a lot to train the boat crews (one of Capt. Albert's jobs I think), not sure if they obtain Lifeboatman certification for them, but many lines don't, and the boat crews are only trained onboard.

 

Once the passengers are away in the boats, if the Captain decides it is necessary to abandon ship, the crew will be signaled to leave their emergency stations and go to their abandon ship stations, which will be generally in the same locations as the passenger muster stations, under the now empty boat davits, where the liferaft stations are. They will then deploy, board, and launch the rafts.

 

Chengkp75, I have a non-cruise, yet maritime technical question for you. Is there a way I can contact you (to be compliant with off topic material on the forums) via public e-mail or some other form? I could perhaps post my question to you in the "Floataway Lounge" forum here if that would be best.

 

Thanks!

[chengkp75]

Chengkp75, I have a non-cruise, yet maritime technical question for you. Is there a way I can contact you (to be compliant with off topic material on the forums) via public e-mail or some other form? I could perhaps post my question to you in the "Floataway Lounge" forum here if that would be best.

 

Thanks!

 

I just prefer not to give out my email, and am on the ship now, so dealing with blind accounts is a problem. I don't look at the floataway forum much, but I can. Try it first in the Ask a cruise question forum first, see if they delete it.

[Lefty Writer]

I just prefer not to give out my email, and am on the ship now, so dealing with blind accounts is a problem. I don't look at the floataway forum much, but I can. Try it first in the Ask a cruise question forum first, see if they delete it.

 

I totally understand that. I'll post in Ask A Cruise Question as you suggested.

 

Thank you!