Muster drill during boarding?

[shawn742]

Convenience is about the last consideration when planning and executing a safety drill. When they hold a fire drill at a building, do they do what's convenient for the employees, or do they do the same thing every time, so that everyone knows reflexively what to do. Do they do this in small groups, and say "oh, your group has to wait, or your group doesn't need to follow the alarm, that's for another group, you'll do yours later."?

 

As for "real life" emergencies, have you experienced any? Any on a ship? Over 43 years at sea, I have, and between those experiences and working with crew on many different ships, I have a much higher opinion of the crew than you do. Let's look at some examples:

 

Prinsendam in 1980: Ship caught fire in engine room, lost power, and eventually sank. All passengers and crew rescued with no loss of life or serious injury, in the Gulf of Alaska. Crew cited for their excellent behavior during evacuation.

 

Star Princess in 2006: Ship caught fire on a balcony, passengers were at muster stations for 7 hours. Crew cited for excellent work during emergency. Some policies and practices needed review at corporate level, but no panic among crew.

 

Carnival Splendor in 2010 and Triumph in 2013: Aft engine room fires resulting in total loss of power. In neither case was any panic among the crew reported in the official investigation reports.

 

Costa Concordia in 2012: Here the problem was not panic among crew, but the conflicting orders and information given by the bridge team. Crew were instructed to send passengers away from muster stations, so no orderly and timely muster could be made (there never was a signal for passenger muster), and the only public announcement was to "abandon ship", which is not the normal order, causing more confusion among the crew. While there was evidence of lack of training on the part of the Concordia's crew, the fault for which falls on the company and the Captain, there was no panic reported among the crew. Even the videos from the time show crew attempting to perform their normal functions.

 

When the passengers go to their muster stations, and possibly be told to board their lifeboats, 95% of the crew are nowhere near the boats, and are not getting ready to evacuate the ship. The only crew that leave the ship with the passengers are the 2-3 assigned as boat crew in each boat. The crew remain at their emergency stations, dealing with the emergency, even after the passengers have evacuated, until the Captain determines that there is no further purpose to remaining on the ship, at which time a separate signal will send the crew to their boat stations.

 

Despite the tangent that you're diverting this thread onto, I'm not downplaying the importance of the muster drill. I agree it's important.

 

...but wouldn't it make sense to do it BEFORE half (once again, throwing out numbers) of the passengers are partially to fully intoxicated? napping? eating? etc?

 

Once again, I'm not downplaying the importance of the drill, just questioning the timing of it.

[moongal]

Wow thanks Cheng from me as well. I will try to make an extra visit to my muster station this time so I can find it.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Despite the tangent that you're diverting this thread onto, I'm not downplaying the importance of the muster drill. I agree it's important.

 

...but wouldn't it make sense to do it BEFORE half (once again, throwing out numbers) of the passengers are partially to fully intoxicated? napping? eating? etc?

 

Once again, I'm not downplaying the importance of the drill, just questioning the timing of it.

 

Well, then they shouldn't serve drinks until after muster. Or, they should hold everyone in a waiting room on the pier until everyone has checked in and then let them all board at once. If it's not done at one time, it is not in any way similar to the real thing, and again, regardless of how much you may think the passengers and crew are panicking, everyone needs to have done "the real thing" at least once, why do you think there was a change in the requirement to have drill before sailing after the Concordia?

 

Here's an article about the Las Vegas hospital regarding the mass shooting this year:

 

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=46292497

 

The important section is:

 

Sklamberg said the ordeal, despite the hospital's imperfect response, proved to him that hyperrealistic emergency training for hospitals, police agencies and others ultimately pays off.

"Part of it (is) communitywide drills," Sklamberg said. "When you drill, drill like it's the real thing."

He said that in communities throughout the country, there is always a risk that states and counties wrestling with budget constraints will be tempted to skimp on, or totally cut out, interagency emergency preparedness training. Local governments should never give into that impulse, Sklamberg told KSL."

Every passenger should be taking muster drill as if it were the real thing, not some interruption of their boozing.

[Homosassa]

I have been going to muster drills for over forty years and have never missed one or considered missing one.

 

Two real life experiences:

 

1. On the Empress of the Seas in 2002 the alarm was given in the crew quarters and the few two lower passenger decks at 2 AM. Crew was at muster stations and the passengers woke and were on deck at their assigned stations within 15 minutes of the first alarm.

 

I wasn't on those decks, but four family members on their first cruise were. My one sister says she has never climbed up stairs so fast in her life.

 

It turned out to be a glitch in the system and was a false alarm.

 

2. Zuiderdam 2009: 3AM and the alarm for a fire goes off. Over the cabin intercoms was a message for all crews to report to muster stations and for guests to dress, gather medications and life vests, and to wait in our cabins.

 

Finally, after 10 minutes, the captain was back on the intercom reporting that all was well and we all could go back to bed.

 

On our Rotterdam cruise during the drill in March 2018, I learned when exiting my cabin that the logical route to my muster station (forward and up) was not the right route as I had to go aft to a stairwell that went all the way up because on the deck layout of the deck above me.

[shawn742]

Well, then they shouldn't serve drinks until after muster. Or, they should hold everyone in a waiting room on the pier until everyone has checked in and then let them all board at once. If it's not done at one time, it is not in any way similar to the real thing, and again, regardless of how much you may think the passengers and crew are panicking, everyone needs to have done "the real thing" at least once, why do you think there was a change in the requirement to have drill before sailing after the Concordia?

 

Here's an article about the Las Vegas hospital regarding the mass shooting this year:

 

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=46292497

 

The important section is:

 

Sklamberg said the ordeal, despite the hospital's imperfect response, proved to him that hyperrealistic emergency training for hospitals, police agencies and others ultimately pays off.

"Part of it (is) communitywide drills," Sklamberg said. "When you drill, drill like it's the real thing."

He said that in communities throughout the country, there is always a risk that states and counties wrestling with budget constraints will be tempted to skimp on, or totally cut out, interagency emergency preparedness training. Local governments should never give into that impulse, Sklamberg told KSL."

Every passenger should be taking muster drill as if it were the real thing, not some interruption of their boozing.

 

The cruise lines (or the powers that be) also relieved the requirement to physically bring your life jacket to the muster drill around your neck; presumably because it was a safety concern of people tripping over the cords dragging behind the passengers in front of them.

 

If they wanna make it "like the real thing", they'd have to do a fake drill at random in the middle of the cruise, and make passengers scramble back to their rooms to get life vests, then scramble back to their forgotten muster stations, all while trampling other passengers in process. I don't think that would make for much of an enjoyable vacation, but then again, "safety first?" :)

 

I don't personally think it would make much of a difference whether the drill was done while you board, or 30 minutes before you leave port...but then again, I'm no expert.

[BoDidly]

The cruise lines (or the powers that be) also relieved the requirement to physically bring your life jacket to the muster drill around your neck; presumably because it was a safety concern of people tripping over the cords dragging behind the passengers in front of them.

 

If they wanna make it "like the real thing", they'd have to do a fake drill at random in the middle of the cruise, and make passengers scramble back to their rooms to get life vests, then scramble back to their forgotten muster stations, all while trampling other passengers in process. I don't think that would make for much of an enjoyable vacation, but then again, "safety first?" :)

I don't personally think it would make much of a difference whether the drill was done while you board, or 30 minutes before you leave port...but then again, I'm no expert.

Trust me ,the crew hates it more than the passengers. Even though your no expert the common sense comes into play very well ;)

[moongal]

So if the alarm sounds say for example during the middle of the day, we are supposed to run back to our rooms and get our life jackets and THEN head to the muster stations? I can’t see how that would even be possible with everyone all at once crowding stairs/elevators (can you even use elevators during an alarm?) Why can’t they just store the life jackets at the muster stations? I guess that would require a pretty big closet.

 

All this has gotten me thinking maybe I better take this whole thing more serious. I normally just view it with trepidation (being packed like sardines in the heat) and with annoyance as it being a nuisance.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

So if the alarm sounds say for example during the middle of the day, we are supposed to run back to our rooms and get our life jackets and THEN head to the muster stations? I can’t see how that would even be possible with everyone all at once crowding stairs/elevators (can you even use elevators during an alarm?) Why can’t they just store the life jackets at the muster stations? I guess that would require a pretty big closet.

 

All this has gotten me thinking maybe I better take this whole thing more serious. I normally just view it with trepidation (being packed like sardines in the heat) and with annoyance as it being a nuisance.

 

 

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While many cruise lines will say, during the muster drill presentation, to bring your lifejacket, I believe most of them state it as "if practicable". A lifejacket is of very little use in a lifeboat, and actually becomes an encumbrance to getting a full complement into the boat. Most ships have extra lifejackets at or near the muster stations, and some newer ships don't have jackets in the cabins at all, they are all at the boats/muster station.

 

Yes, uncomfortable and inconvenient are two main ingredients of any safety drill, and the ship's passenger muster should not be any exception.

 

As for not carrying lifejackets to drill, this has never been fully required, so long as a video showing donning is available at all times on the ship's TV's. However, in my professional opinion, it is a mistake to discontinue the practice of bringing and donning a lifejacket to drill. I can't tell you how many people put these things on wrong, to the point where the flotation in a Type I PFD, which is designed to turn an unconscious person face up in the water, would have turned that person face down with 30 lbs of buoyancy force into the water. If I had my druthers, I would have the passengers respect their lifesaving equipment by bringing them to drill, donning them, and then not being dismissed until the lifejacket is properly stowed again (straps pulled out and buckles buckled around the jacket so nothing gets damaged (and passengers don't trip).

 

Yes, random times would be a better simulation, but you go with what is realistically achievable. As professional mariners we do drills at random times on random days. Crew drills use real live crew as "casualties" and "hollywood" smoke to simulate the real thing.

 

But, I agree, the timing doesn't matter, as long as everyone does it together.

[Micahs Grandad]

While many cruise lines will say, during the muster drill presentation, to bring your lifejacket, I believe most of them state it as "if practicable". A lifejacket is of very little use in a lifeboat, and actually becomes an encumbrance to getting a full complement into the boat. Most ships have extra lifejackets at or near the muster stations, and some newer ships don't have jackets in the cabins at all, they are all at the boats/muster station.

 

Yes, uncomfortable and inconvenient are two main ingredients of any safety drill, and the ship's passenger muster should not be any exception.

 

As for not carrying lifejackets to drill, this has never been fully required, so long as a video showing donning is available at all times on the ship's TV's. However, in my professional opinion, it is a mistake to discontinue the practice of bringing and donning a lifejacket to drill. I can't tell you how many people put these things on wrong, to the point where the flotation in a Type I PFD, which is designed to turn an unconscious person face up in the water, would have turned that person face down with 30 lbs of buoyancy force into the water. If I had my druthers, I would have the passengers respect their lifesaving equipment by bringing them to drill, donning them, and then not being dismissed until the lifejacket is properly stowed again (straps pulled out and buckles buckled around the jacket so nothing gets damaged (and passengers don't trip).

 

Yes, random times would be a better simulation, but you go with what is realistically achievable. As professional mariners we do drills at random times on random days. Crew drills use real live crew as "casualties" and "hollywood" smoke to simulate the real thing.

 

But, I agree, the timing doesn't matter, as long as everyone does it together.

 

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

 

Thought that when they told us we did not have to bring our lifejackets with us they took the seriousness out of it. the more we put it on the better we will be at doing this.

[AmazedByCruising]

A lifejacket is of very little use in a lifeboat, and actually becomes an encumbrance to getting a full complement into the boat.

 

Do you mean that when people actually get into a lifeboat, the lifejacket becomes useless and removing them would actually be better?

[ray98]

Not really a logical idea....at all.

[chengkp75]

Do you mean that when people actually get into a lifeboat, the lifejacket becomes useless and removing them would actually be better?

 

The only thing a lifejacket would do for you once in a boat would be if the boat broke up and you ended in the water. The lifejacket is an aid for getting into a boat if you can't board from the deck of the ship. Yes, unless someone was dumb enough to leave the spray doors open on the boats, and really rough weather knocked someone out of the boat, removing the lifejacket would aid in moving around the boat to aid passengers that need attention.

[Lottacruises]

 

Lately they are not going on and on about other things than emergencies so it has been shortened

 

Oh I just had a thought. It could be so much worse if they pitched bingo to us while they have our "attention".

[Lottacruises]

So if the alarm sounds say for example during the middle of the day............. . (can you even use elevators during an alarm?

 

 

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This is why we muster muster muster

[AmazedByCruising]

The only thing a lifejacket would do for you once in a boat would be if the boat broke up and you ended in the water. The lifejacket is an aid for getting into a boat if you can't board from the deck of the ship. Yes, unless someone was dumb enough to leave the spray doors open on the boats, and really rough weather knocked someone out of the boat, removing the lifejacket would aid in moving around the boat to aid passengers that need attention.

 

In a Concordia video

at 27:00 someone seems to have fallen into the sea while the boat is lowered.

 

But I understand the lifejacket is the very, very last resort. The lifeboats can't be used for whatever reason, then there are no helicopters or ships nearby, and then you end up in the sea waiting for help. Did it ever happen that the lifevest, and the light and the whistle, actually saved someone's life?

[chengkp75]

In a Concordia video

at 27:00 someone seems to have fallen into the sea while the boat is lowered.

 

But I understand the lifejacket is the very, very last resort. The lifeboats can't be used for whatever reason, then there are no helicopters or ships nearby, and then you end up in the sea waiting for help. Did it ever happen that the lifevest, and the light and the whistle, actually saved someone's life?

 

Don't know if they keep records on that. Did one ever save someone? Don't know. Have they ever helped save someone? Almost assuredly. But a lifejacket, by itself, will not save you. You need a combination of things: heredity, physical condition, alcohol level, weather, clothing, and water temperature for you to survive in the ocean for any length of time. The jacket will keep you afloat without exerting effort to tread water, and that effort diminishes your energy reserves faster, thereby lowering your ability to maintain body temperature. Depending on clothing, fitness, and alcohol level, even in balmy 70-80*F (21-27*C) water, you can experience exhaustion and stop moving your extremities (resulting in taking mouthfuls of water and drowning), within as little as 2 hours.

 

While it could happen that someone falls over the side of a boat, there are a couple of things to address. First off, the video only shows the person clinging to the side of the boat, not whether he fell out of the boat, or whether he was trying to get onto the boat as it was being lowered, or even leaped from the ship to the boat. Second, and this does point to some lack of training on the part of the crew, with the ship heeling, the boat tends to scrape down the side of the ship, and can catch and tip. The crew needs to be trained in how to lower and "fend off" a boat in these circumstances, something that certified lifeboatmen would know.

[NWACruiser]

Interesting conversation about muster drills. I do not ever want to be on a ship that must be abandoned. Given that, we do go out to sea to vacation, and, no ship is perfectly safe at sea. Therefore, I want to be able to respond with all my senses if it should happen. Every ship is different, and knowing exactly where to go is critical to saving your own life, much less, other passengers.

 

When on the Legend, there were some teenagers talking the entire time we were in muster drill. I know, because they were right behind me. They were saying it was not important, because they could swim to shore. I started hearing some others telling them to be quiet. They did not care.

 

Even when I am on a fishing expedition, I want to know what to do if an emergency exists.

 

I was fishing off Pompano Beach one night on the Helen S. The lights were dim on the boat. We were having a good time catching a lot of fish. It seemed to be a perfect evening. That is until one of the crew members ran into the bridge, fired the boat up, and moved like lightning out of the way. I was taken by surprise because we always reel in before moving. Suddenly a completely dark boat full of refugees crossed right past where we were. I know they did not see us. If the crew member did not respond like he did, we would have been hit and swimming with the sharks!

 

So if you do not care about your own safety, please close your traps during muster drills so the rest of us who care about our own lives can listen to what we need to do during an emergency.

[Micahs Grandad]

Oh I just had a thought. It could be so much worse if they pitched bingo to us while they have our "attention".

 

One cruise after doing lecture to us in English and Spanish the CD decided it would be good to give us a lecture about earth day. Safety briefing took almost an hour and CD did not win any friends that day

[AmazedByCruising]

Don't know if they keep records on that. Did one ever save someone? Don't know. Have they ever helped save someone? Almost assuredly. But a lifejacket, by itself, will not save you. You need a combination of things: heredity, physical condition, alcohol level, weather, clothing, and water temperature for you to survive in the ocean for any length of time. The jacket will keep you afloat without exerting effort to tread water, and that effort diminishes your energy reserves faster, thereby lowering your ability to maintain body temperature. Depending on clothing, fitness, and alcohol level, even in balmy 70-80*F (21-27*C) water, you can experience exhaustion and stop moving your extremities (resulting in taking mouthfuls of water and drowning), within as little as 2 hours.

 

By "saving" I meant that someone could say "without the life jacket, I'd be dead". So I take "Have they ever helped save someone? Almost assuredly" as: yes, they did save lives. I still find it strange that even you don't know about statistics which with 99% certainty means that they don't exists. If there's only anecdotal evidence that a lifejacket helps, BUT they do hinder an orderly abandon of the ship, and people get bored by being told about the light and the whistle so they don't hear the real important message, and people simply float instead of swimming leading to hypothermia faster, I think the value of lifejackets on cruise ships is a very interesting subject for research. A difficult research, as fortunately not many ships sink, but possibly life saving nonetheless.

 

Maybe it should be told during muster drill: even while the jacket will keep you afloat, do keep moving to maintain your body temperature. That wouldn't be totally obvious to passengers I think.

[Homosassa]

If there's only anecdotal evidence that a lifejacket helps, BUT they do hinder an orderly abandon of the ship, and people get bored by being told about the light and the whistle so they don't hear the real important message, and people simply float instead of swimming leading to hypothermia faster,

 

Maybe it should be told during muster drill: even while the jacket will keep you afloat, do keep moving to maintain your body temperature. That wouldn't be totally obvious to passengers I think.

 

Bad advice about moving.

 

The more energy you use in cold water, the more your body cools off. If you cannot climb out of the water, conserve body heat by remaining as still as possible and reducing the amount of your body exposed to the water. Protect your critical heat loss regions: the head, sides, armpits, and groin. Do not swim unless shore, a raft, or an overturned boat is nearby. Swimming accelerates heat loss. Remaining still in the water increases your survival time.

 

The Heat Escape Lessening Posture (H.E.L.P.) can be used only if you are wearing a personal flotation device. Hold your arms tightly against your sides and across your chest, pull your legs together and up toward your chest. The H.E.L.P. position can be difficult to maintain due to wave conditions, PFD design, and body size. A group of two or more people wearing PFDs can huddle together to conserve body heat, offer moral support, and provide a larger target for rescuers.

[Elaine5715]

It's funny that you refer to the muster drill as "real life" training. It's real life in the sense of dealing with a large crowd, but nowhere near real life of a ship with a disaster and everyone (passengers and crew alike) in a panicked state. I guarantee that the majority of the passengers on the ship wouldn't have a clue how to get back to their muster station without crew guidance. Obviously safety is of the utmost importance, but lets be realistic.

 

Have you ever heard the Mike Tyson quote "everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth?"

 

Back to the point of my thread though, I'm not complaining about the muster drill...I just think it could be done in a more convenient fashion for all.

Since you are a new poster, please know Chief who is taking the time to thoughtfully answer you, is The Guy, a "boatafide" ship engineer.

[Crusin Hogs]

Hate it.

Understand the need for it, BUT hate it.

Being packed in like sardines in the hot sun.

Hate it.

 

That is only on the older ships , All new ships you are in A/C in Mdr's , theater , clubs ,Dream , Magic , Breeze , Vista , Horizon are all done inside , Not out on the decks

[2wheelin]

That is only on the older ships , All new ships you are in A/C in Mdr's , theater , clubs ,Dream , Magic , Breeze , Vista , Horizon are all done inside , Not out on the decks

Dream was done outside last Nov

[chengkp75]

By "saving" I meant that someone could say "without the life jacket, I'd be dead". So I take "Have they ever helped save someone? Almost assuredly" as: yes, they did save lives. I still find it strange that even you don't know about statistics which with 99% certainty means that they don't exists. If there's only anecdotal evidence that a lifejacket helps, BUT they do hinder an orderly abandon of the ship, and people get bored by being told about the light and the whistle so they don't hear the real important message, and people simply float instead of swimming leading to hypothermia faster, I think the value of lifejackets on cruise ships is a very interesting subject for research. A difficult research, as fortunately not many ships sink, but possibly life saving nonetheless.

 

Maybe it should be told during muster drill: even while the jacket will keep you afloat, do keep moving to maintain your body temperature. That wouldn't be totally obvious to passengers I think.

 

You misunderstood me. As the previous poster said, moving is bad for preventing hypothermia. The life jacket helps maintain body heat by removing the necessity to move to stay afloat.

[AmazedByCruising]

Bad advice about moving.

 

You misunderstood me. As the previous poster said, moving is bad for preventing hypothermia. The life jacket helps maintain body heat by removing the necessity to move to stay afloat.

 

 

I did indeed. Sorry for that.

 

 

No I learned about H.E.L.P. though, thank you Homosassa :)