Payment dates

[philw1776]

I hope folks book other lines than Viking because every time I look for a Viking cruise date it's booked.  Even 2020!

[pontac]

On 5/7/2019 at 1:51 PM, sharkster77 said:

@pontac, isn't that pretty much what happened when Viking recently announced a "everyone pays within 30 days of booking, no exceptions" policy?  There was so much negativity and trashing of Viking here and in other places that they backed off on that idea?  The market was rejecting the policy. 

 

 

If consumer laws allowed Viking to do this in other countries, you can be sure that they would certainly try.

 

I don't know; presumably you are talking about Viking USA and I'm not au fait with their practises in the US or this case of US consumer resistance. What the case you mention is that if there is enough consumer resistance then practises can change. I suspect there is no USA law that says holidays must be paid for at time of booking.

 

Although in the UK there are consumer protection laws concerning package tours, I can see none that limit or define when they should be paid for. 

 

Package holidays have been around for many decades in the UK and when Viking entered the UK markets they adopted the same model. I doubt they'd have got bookings if they had demanded full payment on booking.

[sharkster77]

5 hours ago, pontac said:

 

I don't know; presumably you are talking about Viking USA and I'm not au fait with their practises in the US or this case of US consumer resistance. What the case you mention is that if there is enough consumer resistance then practises can change. I suspect there is no USA law that says holidays must be paid for at time of booking.

 

Although in the UK there are consumer protection laws concerning package tours, I can see none that limit or define when they should be paid for. 

 

Package holidays have been around for many decades in the UK and when Viking entered the UK markets they adopted the same model. I doubt they'd have got bookings if they had demanded full payment on booking.

Fair enough @pontac, so then it begs the question:  Why does Viking demand payment so much earlier in the US than in the UK, AUS, or the EU?  My gut tells me that it's somehow because they can?

[pontac]

14 hours ago, sharkster77 said:

My gut tells me that it's somehow because they can?

 

Yes, because enough customers will accept it.

[notamermaid]

pontac,

 

you said earlier, I quote:

20 hours ago, pontac said:

Although in the UK there are consumer protection laws concerning package tours, I can see none that limit or define when they should be paid for. 

 

A good point to look into further. It struck me that perhaps the EU laws as regards package tours - and river cruises fall into this category - are not the same as national laws in this relative specific case of terms and conditions. I had a look at the EU directive that was updated last year to reflect modern practices as regards booking a holiday. It is https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/LSU/?uri=celex%3A32015L2302

It does not give figures.

 

I could not find relevant information that would indicate that the UK has specific conditions that national law stipulates must be put in a contract. At the moment I am willing to accept that while the EU directive has to be implemented and is being implemented in the UK, terms and conditions as regards package tours contracts appear not to adhere to UK speficic regulations, i.e. does not seem to exist. However, they could well fall under what is called "unfair terms & conditions". Meaning a phrase or clause in a contract is not deemed fair in the eyes of common practice. Hence the fact that Viking does what everyone does in the UK. One would need to look more closely into this to find out more and verify.

 

What I will say is that consumers are quite well protected in the EU and the UK as regards other aspects of a package holiday. For river cruisers this means that for example if a river cruise becomes more or less stationary, as it did on the Elbe last year, it is easier for EU citizens to cancel the cruise as under the EU terms it means the nature of the holiday has been significantly changed by so much that it is not the holiday you had originally booked, i.e. a ship that sails. Now do not go running to your lawyer, check with a citizens' advice bureau, etc. first!

 

Now, onto Germany. The terms and conditions as regards package holidays are clear and in national law figures are stipulated. A court ruling in 2017 of the Bundesgerichtshof, or in short BGH, that is the highest court in Germany, gave these figures: the company asking for 20% deposit at time of booking is the maximum figure allowed. Any exceptions to the figure have to be well argued for and documented. A company cannot ask for full payment earlier than 30 days before the start of the trip.

 

Imagine Viking still being on the Germany market, they would be in real trouble now... They closed their German company a few years ago, as they saw more potential for growth in North America and wanted to focus on the English-speaking world.

 

To the OP, I know this post is a bit long, sorry, but I wanted to get it right, i.e. correct my previous posts if necessary and make clearer my point of consumer rights in the EU.

 

Hope it helps.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[pontac]

2 hours ago, notamermaid said:

nIt is https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/LSU/?uri=celex%3A32015L2302

It does not give figures.

 

I could not find relevant information that would indicate that the UK has specific conditions that national law stipulates must be put in a contract

 

It looks to me that UK law o package tours matches what's in that EU directive, which is no surprise.

 

Summary of that directive says the terms must be made clear to the customer  including

• the total price inclusive of taxes and any additional costs;
• arrangements for payment;

which is the same as UK law. Note it does not say that full price cannot be charged on booking or when the final payment must be made, just that the arrangements must be made clear before booking.

 

Regarding the ruling of the German BGF court, if Viking operated in Germany they'd follow German law, like their competitors in that market do. I don't see that they'd be in trouble. I agree with you that there is probably a larger market in the English speaking markets (US, Canada, Australia, NZ, UK, South Africa, etc) than in the German speaking market. Where a non-English speaking market is large and rich enough to tempt then they'll operate there - e.g. China for whom they run Chinese speaking ships and tours and Chinese food on European rivers.

Edited May 9, 2019 by pontac

[notamermaid]

25 minutes ago, pontac said:

Note it does not say that full price cannot be charged on booking or when the final payment must be made, just that the arrangements must be made clear before booking.

Exactly. I had initially thought that figures would turn up in the EU directive. German law now (since 2017, see above) goes beyond the EU directive.

 

3 hours ago, notamermaid said:

Imagine Viking still being on the Germany market, they would be in real trouble now...

With that I meant if they had to switch from asking full payment at time of booking - many months in advance of the trip - to a contractual 30 days before the trip, from one day to the next they would have to adjust their cash flow. Let us say Rhine Getaway 100 sailings with 150 passengers each, each one of them paying 2000 dollars six months later than originally calculated with, adds up to what? One new Viking ship? No idea and my calculation is a very rough one. It is that transition period, but the confidence of the banks would keep them out of problems I am sure. After all, Viking delivers a very succesful product and many, many people are very happy with it.

 

To the OP: I throw A-Rosa as a potential fit for you into the discussion: https://www.arosa-cruises.com/river-cruises.html

 

notamermaid

 

[caripoo]

We just paid our Crystal Rhine for October off this month.....Was not due until June, but they gave a discount for paying it this month, so we did.

[FolsomMike]

I just discovered yesterday that the final payment for my Viking China 2020 tour is 7/31/19. I didn’t notice it in the small print until after I paid for the travel insurance. I made the mistake of assuming that it wasn’t due until about four months before the cruise (like every other cruise company I’ve sailed with). 

[foodpolice]

On 5/4/2019 at 9:22 AM, Joebandy said:

Question: Not sure if has been asked before.

We have cruised with Viking, Disney, Norwegian, + Celebrity.

Why do Cruise lines like Viking, require advanced payment in full well in advance of actual cruise date, as opposed to Disney who required a reasonable booking deposit with full payment due closer to actual cruise date?

Are there any other cruise lines, specifically river cruise companies comparable to Viking who do not?

Thanks in advance

I had a recent conversation with Emerald respecting a potential cruise with them.  The representative indicated that we had to put down a non-refundable deposit with the balance due 90 days prior to departure.  Sorry I'd can't remember how much the deposit was (I think it was less than $500 pp), but the rep also said that you can buy cancellation insurance for the deposit (just in case).  Again, I can't remember how much the insurance was, but think it was something in the $100 range pp.

[gnome12]

3 hours ago, foodpolice said:

I had a recent conversation with Emerald respecting a potential cruise with them.  The representative indicated that we had to put down a non-refundable deposit with the balance due 90 days prior to departure.  Sorry I'd can't remember how much the deposit was (I think it was less than $500 pp), but the rep also said that you can buy cancellation insurance for the deposit (just in case).  Again, I can't remember how much the insurance was, but think it was something in the $100 range pp.

My non-refundable deposit with Avalon for a cruise in Myanmar was $250 Canadian and I think final payment was 100 days before departure. For that small an amount, I didn't bother insuring; I only insured once I had other non-refundable expenses. (I have travel medical through work, so I only get a non-medical package which includes basically cancellation and trip interruption insurance.) I might add to it periodically if I add additional non-refundable expenses, and top it up when I make final payment.