Do all restaurants have sommeliers?

[Gonzo70]

On 7/14/2019 at 12:57 PM, zitsky said:

How do you know when you're dealing with a real sommelier?  Is there a secret handshake?

 

The best way is to ask about their training. If they mention it was through Celebrity, they are not a real sommelier. The two most known institutions for training/certifying sommeliers are WSET and the Court of Master Sommeliers. If they have accreditation from one of these, they are the real deal.  As mentioned by someone else, within these there are different levels of accreditation. For example WSET has four levels (each becomes more challenging, time consuming and expensive to obtain). Like others I have experienced a decent range of wine service on Celebrity ranging from horrible to good; the biggest issue usually (more so than their level of knowledge) is how overworked they are in most venues. Try building a strong personal relationship with them early in the cruise and express interest in taking a wine tasting class in order to have a greater shot of more attentive service; giving an extra tip if you do receive good service also can help. 

[zitsky]

14 minutes ago, Dom G said:

 

You won’t find these on ships because wine purchases are done by someone in the corporate office. Generally, the corporate lists are bid on by wine suppliers national accounts team (or a wine broker who specializes in cruises) and they will have annual contracts. So you’ll see a few parent brands that have many placements on one cruise line. I’m on the Equinox now and see a lot of Kendall-Jackson, Banfi and Antinori brands- both under their flagship label and umbrella brands. A certified sommelier would build their own list, run the restaurant wine program, train the staff, order and inventory the wines and several other duties. They wouldn’t want to work in a restaurant where they would have no input on the wines carried.  The ship “sommeliers” are there to steer people to something they will like, nothing more.  I’d call them more of a wine concierge for people with little wine knowledge.   

 

I say all this as a 25 year wine industry professional. I work for a Napa producer/fine wine importer. We have many of our wines on NCL now and have had a long running program with RC.  

 

If it's allowed I would like to hear more about your wines. I am not impressed by the three you mentioned.  Too bad I'm not on NCL.

Edited July 15, 2019 by zitsky

[Dom G]

41 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

If it's allowed I would like to hear more about your wines. I am not impressed by the three you mentioned.  Too bad I'm not on NCL.

 

There are some good wines onboard here. And it’s not always about price. In Tuscan, they have Nozzole Chianti Classico for $11 or $12 a glass. Villa Antinori is $15, I believe.  Wine is very subjective. I know both wines and between the two, I prefer the Nozzole, so I drank that. I asked for it last night in the MDR because I had short rib gnocchi for dinner and our sommelier said that it is only available in Tuscan.  But she said she had another Chianti Classico, but didn’t know the name of it. She brought it to the table- it was the Nozzole that I asked for. 

 

Additionally, I had a glass of the Concha y Toro Reservado Chardonnay last night with my escargot appetizer. For an inexpensive Chardonnay, it was very good. In Tuscan, I also had a glass of the Tormaresca Chardonnay from Puglia (Antinori brand). The first glass was ice cold and completely oxidized. It was obviously opened a few days earlier. My wife thought it was a bad wine. I know this is a good wine and knew what was wrong, so I asked for two more glasses from a fresh bottle. Once that wine warmed up a little, it was the delicious wine I knew it should be. 

 

Also, the Decoy Cab (Duckhorn has a few wines on Celebrity too) is a very good wine for you to try on Equinox. 

 

From memory of the lists, there is a Ribera del Duero wine on the list. It’s a Tempranillo from Spain if you’re not familiar with the region. I don’t remember what winery it was from. $11 a glass. I love Ribera del Duero, so it’s worth a taste to see if this producer makes a good one. And if you like Sauvignon Blanc, there is a Villa Maria SB. It’s been years since I had anything from that winery, but also worth a taste if you have a drink package. 

 

Other than wines at dinner, I have had beer, Manhattans and Martinis onboard. I do have 2 bottles of a great champagne that we import in my cabin. We’ll open one of those those before we go to dinner at Quine tonight. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Dom G

[George C]

We drank mostly decoy Cabernet, micheals stocked it after we requested a better red wine. Also like almost all Chianti Classico. 

[zitsky]

21 minutes ago, Dom G said:

 

There are some good wines onboard here. And it’s not always about price. In Tuscan, they have Nozzole Chianti Classico for $11 or $12 a glass. Villa Antinori is $15, I believe.  Wine is very subjective. I know both wines and between the two, I prefer the Nozzole, so I drank that. I asked for it last night in the MDR because I had short rib gnocchi for dinner and our sommelier said that it is only available in Tuscan.  But she said she had another Chianti Classico, but didn’t know the name of it. She brought it to the table- it was the Nozzole that I asked for. 

 

Additionally, I had a glass of the Concha y Toro Reservado Chardonnay last night with my escargot appetizer. For an inexpensive Chardonnay, it was very good. In Tuscan, I also had a glass of the Tormaresca Chardonnay from Puglia (Antinori brand). The first glass was ice cold and completely oxidized. It was obviously opened a few days earlier. My wife thought it was a bad wine. I know this is a good wine and knew what was wrong, so I asked for two more glasses from a fresh bottle. Once that wine warmed up a little, it was the delicious wine I knew it should be. 

 

Also, the Decoy Cab (Duckhorn has a few wines on Celebrity too) is a very good wine for you to try on Equinox. 

 

From memory of the lists, there is a Ribera del Duero wine on the list. It’s a Tempranillo from Spain if you’re not familiar with the region. I don’t remember what winery it was from. $11 a glass. I love Ribera del Duero, so it’s worth a taste to see if this producer makes a good one. And if you like Sauvignon Blanc, there is a Villa Maria SB. It’s been years since I had anything from that winery, but also worth a taste if you have a drink package. 

 

Other than wines at dinner, I have had beer, Manhattans and Martinis onboard. I do have 2 bottles of a great champagne that we import in my cabin. We’ll open one of those those before we go to dinner at Quine tonight. 

 

What does oxidized wine taste like?  Is that the same as corked?

[NCteacherlovescruising]

18 minutes ago, George C said:

We drank mostly decoy Cabernet, micheals stocked it after we requested a better red wine. Also like almost all Chianti Classico. 

Was the Decoy in the premium package?

[Dom G]

20 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

What does oxidized wine taste like?  Is that the same as corked?

 

Way different than corked. A corked wine gives the wine a musty odor- like wet newspaper and strips away the fruit and finish of the wine. It is detectable by humans at a very low amount. It literally ruins the flavor of the wine, but it is harmless to drink. Many people drink corked wines and have no idea if they don’t know what to look for. That’s why screw caps are becoming so popular- no chance of a corked wine and the screw cap is airtight and won’t dry out like a cork can. 

 

Oxidized wine is just simply a wine being open too long. The reaction when exposed to oxygen for a long time is that the wine gets old and loses flavor. It happens with all food products. If you save leftovers of dinner tonight, it will taste almost as good tomorrow, but three days from now, the flavor will be gone. Not harmful in wines and after long enough, it will actually be vinegar. Most people don’t recognize oxidized wine. They just think the wine has little or no flavor. It’s part of my job. I know what basic characteristics a Chardonnay should have, I’m familiar with wines from Puglia, and I know the producer’s products and their reputation. The glass I had, had none of the things I knew it should have for flavor. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Dom G

[George C]

49 minutes ago, NCteacherlovescruising said:

Was the Decoy in the premium package?

I believe it was just couple of dollars above 

[vtcruising]

The Decoy cab is $14/glass (or at least it was in April).

 

The wine list can vary, but here is one from the MDR:

 

 

 

 

[NCteacherlovescruising]

15 minutes ago, vtcruising said:

The Decoy cab is $14/glass (or at least it was in April).

 

The wine list can vary, but here is one from the MDR:

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like it’s in the Premium Package. Thanks!

[markeb]

2 hours ago, Dom G said:

 

You won’t find these on ships because wine purchases are done by someone in the corporate office. Generally, the corporate lists are bid on by wine suppliers national accounts team (or a wine broker who specializes in cruises) and they will have annual contracts. So you’ll see a few parent brands that have many placements on one cruise line. I’m on the Equinox now and see a lot of Kendall-Jackson, Banfi and Antinori brands- both under their flagship label and umbrella brands. A certified sommelier would build their own list, run the restaurant wine program, train the staff, order and inventory the wines and several other duties. They wouldn’t want to work in a restaurant where they would have no input on the wines carried.  The ship “sommeliers” are there to steer people to something they will like, nothing more.  I’d call them more of a wine concierge for people with little wine knowledge.   

 

I say all this as a 25 year wine industry professional. I work for a Napa producer/fine wine importer. We have many of our wines on NCL now and have had a long running program with RC.  

 

Thanks. I wouldn't expect to see any of them onboard, frankly, but I was a level off on responsibilities. I've had a couple of friends in the retail/wine bar business achieve certified status. And I've dined in at least one restaurant whose wine list was curated by a master sommelier, and clearly trained the sommelier staff on  the floor, all of whom I believe are at least certified (yes, one of those restaurants). That's a total pleasure for anyone who enjoys wine...

[Dom G]

13 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Thanks. I wouldn't expect to see any of them onboard, frankly, but I was a level off on responsibilities. I've had a couple of friends in the retail/wine bar business achieve certified status. And I've dined in at least one restaurant whose wine list was curated by a master sommelier, and clearly trained the sommelier staff on  the floor, all of whom I believe are at least certified (yes, one of those restaurants). That's a total pleasure for anyone who enjoys wine...

 

I used “Certified” sommelier in an all encompassing way for all levels of professional sommeliers under the Court of Master Sommeliers in my description of their duties. And those duties will vary from restaurant to restaurant.

 

But you are right on the money.  

 

I think the cruise ship sommeliers are invaluable to probably 90%+ of people who know little of wine. 

 

 

[K12Guy]

4 hours ago, Dom G said:

I’m on Equinox now too. The two “sommeliers” I have met the last two nights have been very attentive, but both lacked basic wine knowledge and knew little about the wines they were serving. Same on other past cruises. They may be good for people with 0 wine knowledge, but not for regular wine drinkers.

 

 

Dom, if you're still on Equinox and have access to Luminae please stop and tell Yan the Collins couple says Hi. She won't remember us, but it will make her feel good. And she really is a good sommelier, from our experience during the Australia/New Zealand cruise.

[George C]

One thing I find annoying is when sommelier or waiter try to talk you into buying a bottle of wine , when you have drink package and cost per glass is just a 2 or 3 dollars over package limit .

[zitsky]

10 minutes ago, George C said:

One thing I find annoying is when sommelier or waiter try to talk you into buying a bottle of wine , when you have drink package and cost per glass is just a 2 or 3 dollars over package limit .

 

Then they have the Elevated category so you spend even more.  I do admit, I'd like to try the Caymus Cab.

[markeb]

24 minutes ago, George C said:

One thing I find annoying is when sommelier or waiter try to talk you into buying a bottle of wine , when you have drink package and cost per glass is just a 2 or 3 dollars over package limit .

 

I'm OK with that to a point if it's not on the by the glass list. But, again, one of the things a good sommelier does is match your wine to the meal, and that more often than not is off the by the glass menu. Of course, that also requires a wine list that's been curated around the menu...

[markeb]

1 hour ago, Dom G said:

 

I used “Certified” sommelier in an all encompassing way for all levels of professional sommeliers under the Court of Master Sommeliers in my description of their duties. And those duties will vary from restaurant to restaurant.

 

But you are right on the money.  

 

I think the cruise ship sommeliers are invaluable to probably 90%+ of people who know little of wine. 

 

 

 

I agree, but I've tried things to pair with dishes that would NEVER have been my first choice because of a sommelier's recommendation. At my current favorite restaurant, I don't even look at the list. I'm a 90% red wine guy, but both my wife and I have been hooked on Austrian Gruner Veltliner from those recommendations, and it's a wine I'd probably never have tried. It's what makes it fun.

[George C]

22 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

I'm OK with that to a point if it's not on the by the glass list. But, again, one of the things a good sommelier does is match your wine to the meal, and that more often than not is off the by the glass menu. Of course, that also requires a wine list that's been curated around the menu...

No what I am talking about is same wine that cost us let’s day 3 dollars above limit so about 12 dollars to finish bottle and they are saying to buy same bottle for about 50. 

And agree sommelier is fine for people that want help, we have a fairly good knowledge, which I am sure you do also. We go to one place most weekends that have hundreds of bottles just for red .

[markeb]

45 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

Then they have the Elevated category so you spend even more.  I do admit, I'd like to try the Caymus Cab.

 

You can get the Caymus at Total Wine and More in Raleigh for around $80/bottle. That should be around 5 glasses. If you just want to try it, I'd do that.

 

I'm not sure I've ever had Caymus. Given that it has 92 points from Parker, I can probably describe it in my sleep. I do have a bottle of 2011 Caymus Special Selection in the basement that should be getting close to drinkable. The tannins should be getting pretty smooth, and the jam should have given way to rich fruit. Caymus makes a LOT of wine, so they can support the cruise industry. The standard variety is known for very tight year to year consistency, which is also a great for the restaurant trade. 

[George C]

1 hour ago, zitsky said:

 

Then they have the Elevated category so you spend even more.  I do admit, I'd like to try the Caymus Cab.

Caymus is a great wine but not my favorite, did love getting it at no additional cost over wine package , but they seem to bend over backwards occasionally in luminae. 

[tjc73]

Such interesting conversation on this thread. I work in the wine industry and am technically a sommelier based on my education, so I generally don’t ask for help.  I have cruised a lot on Disney and they only have a couple of Somms on board and they are typically assigned to the specialty restaurants, but are accessible by anyone on The ship. Usually the offerings in the MDR are pretty mainstream, but if you want a wine from a specialty restaurant or bar they will get it for you (on disney). 

Typically I don’t expect the wait staff to have any wine knowledge. If you have the title of “Wine Steward” you should definitely have some basic knowledge and if you are a somm you should have the education to back it up AND even if you are selling a limited selection of wines contracted by massive corporations you should know your stuff! Jackson family wines should be conducting staff trainings if they have they have the biggest contract. 

A lot of times on cruises there may be wines I don’t know so I may ask for a sample especially if it’s a by the glass pour. There is no reason why they can’t bring you a 1oz sample to taste the wine and if you are undecided and it is by the glass a sample should be offered. 

I’m  sailing Celebrity for the first time on the infinity. We upgraded to the premium package as from my previous cruise experiences the wine under $10 a glass are usually not to my liking. it Looks like the offerings in the MDR are limited, even for the premium package. Hoping there are more wine selections in some of the bars or Cellar Masters. 

As for all of those itching to try Caymus - it’s way too pricy on the ship and I think it’s overrated and quality has gone down. Put your money into Duckhorn or even their second label, Decoy. These are great wines and I’m happy the Decoy Cab is in the premium package!   

[ghstudio]

Yes, there are wines covered by the packages not on those lists....including non alcoholic wines.  We regularly get a white that is not on the list.  The wine (insert any title that is not sommelier...my impression is that “person” is most appropriate) offers a light, medium or full body when you ask what they have on your package.  It is apparently difficult to get the wine list in the mdr...they can sometimes find a two page list of what is on the packages.  I know this sounds harsh, but it’s based on recent personal experience on two celebrity cruises.  

 

Check to see what they have available at bars around the ship...and if you get that “deer in the headlights” look when you ask for a wine that you know is in your package, from your asking around,  tell them where you found it.

Edited July 16, 2019 by ghstudio

[cangelmd]

On 7/14/2019 at 12:08 PM, phoenix_dream said:

Those are unfortunately out of my league.  But my favorite more reasonably priced wine is Conundrum, by Caymus.  We usually can get it on the Premium Beverage package.  Not a cab, but a very smooth, fruity, full-bodied red blend.  Many who like cabs should like this one.  Not sure of the onboard cost, but can find it in stores between $20 and $25.  Going to Napa this fall and going to go to the Caymus vineyard, where the tastings include Caymus.  Can't wait. 

 

ps - learned about this wine from an excellent wine steward we came to know from sailing in AQ.  He's been on several sailings with us on various ships.  There are some great ones onboard!

Not available on Celebrity, but if you like Conundrum red, try Coppola’s Claret - that’s our go to grocery store steak wine.

 

Have fun in Napa.

[NCteacherlovescruising]

10 hours ago, tjc73 said:

Such interesting conversation on this thread. I work in the wine industry and am technically a sommelier based on my education, so I generally don’t ask for help.  I have cruised a lot on Disney and they only have a couple of Somms on board and they are typically assigned to the specialty restaurants, but are accessible by anyone on The ship. Usually the offerings in the MDR are pretty mainstream, but if you want a wine from a specialty restaurant or bar they will get it for you (on disney). 

Typically I don’t expect the wait staff to have any wine knowledge. If you have the title of “Wine Steward” you should definitely have some basic knowledge and if you are a somm you should have the education to back it up AND even if you are selling a limited selection of wines contracted by massive corporations you should know your stuff! Jackson family wines should be conducting staff trainings if they have they have the biggest contract. 

A lot of times on cruises there may be wines I don’t know so I may ask for a sample especially if it’s a by the glass pour. There is no reason why they can’t bring you a 1oz sample to taste the wine and if you are undecided and it is by the glass a sample should be offered. 

I’m  sailing Celebrity for the first time on the infinity. We upgraded to the premium package as from my previous cruise experiences the wine under $10 a glass are usually not to my liking. it Looks like the offerings in the MDR are limited, even for the premium package. Hoping there are more wine selections in some of the bars or Cellar Masters. 

As for all of those itching to try Caymus - it’s way too pricy on the ship and I think it’s overrated and quality has gone down. Put your money into Duckhorn or even their second label, Decoy. These are great wines and I’m happy the Decoy Cab is in the premium package!   

We found the Caymus 2012 Special Selection quite enjoyable, and purchased a few bottles, however I agree about Duckhorn. We have the premium package so will most likely be drinking Decoy on our cruise. We also purchased a Caymus special Anniversary bottle which was quite good, but by the time we opened it and realized how good it was they were sold out. What, if any, whites would you recommend in the premium package. We rarely drink whites so I have no idea what’s good. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by NCteacherlovescruising

[NCteacherlovescruising]

7 hours ago, ghstudio said:

Yes, there are wines covered by the packages not on those lists....including non alcoholic wines.  We regularly get a white that is not on the list.  The wine (insert any title that is not sommelier...my impression is that “person” is most appropriate) offers a light, medium or full body when you ask what they have on your package.  It is apparently difficult to get the wine list in the mdr...they can sometimes find a two page list of what is on the packages.  I know this sounds harsh, but it’s based on recent personal experience on two celebrity cruises.  

 

Check to see what they have available at bars around the ship...and if you get that “deer in the headlights” look when you ask for a wine that you know is in your package, from your asking around,  tell them where you found it.

 

 

Do you know if the Decoy cab is readily available around the ship, including the MDR?

Edited July 16, 2019 by NCteacherlovescruising