iancal Posted July 19, 2019 #26 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) Other cruise lines started planning for and moving into this market years ago. There is choice out there in the marketplace and there always will be if there is a market for it. They may not have a HAL logo on the funnel. Has HAL announced any new builds of smaller ships or even a nod in that direction? Edited July 19, 2019 by iancal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir PMP Posted July 19, 2019 #27 Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 hour ago, iancal said: Other cruise lines started planning for and moving into this market years ago. There is choice out there in the marketplace and there always will be if there is a market for it. They may not have a HAL logo on the funnel. Has HAL announced any new builds of smaller ships or even a nod in that direction? Orlando has said that a replacement for the Prinsendam is coming, we just don't know what century..Also Copper and I discussed the possible coming of 2 Seabourns.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted July 19, 2019 #28 Share Posted July 19, 2019 4 hours ago, sevenseasnomad said: Carnival Corp. has chosen to sell the smaller ships in the HAL fleet, claiming they're not profitable. I wonder if they'd elected to renovate these ships, particularly such a beloved ship like Prinsendam, would they retain a lot of loyal HAL passengers who are now booking with other lines, some of which aren't even connected to Carnival Corp? I would love to think that some time in the future Carnival Corp. would consider smaller new ships, maybe 2-3 for HAL. Does anyone see this happening or am I building "castles in the sky"? The problem is that newer smaller ships would not be in the same economic fare range that HAL charges you would need to have fares starting at $150-200pp per day... and up Your talking prem/luxury level cruises and HAL demographic would not match the new ships. CCL wants HAL passengers to leave HAL and go to Seabourn when their wants change for smaller and better experience. Making HAL a competitor of their Seabourn rather than a feederwould not be productive foe them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevNeal Posted July 19, 2019 #29 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Thanks for posting these pics, and for the links to more pics. I loved this ship; I did a wonderful cruise to Iceland, Longyearbyen, the polar ice pack, and Norway aboard her. She was wonderful, even though dated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hal lover Posted July 19, 2019 #30 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I feel truly blessed that I got to sail on the ship before she left the fleet. Only a 6 nighter, but I went! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare kazu Posted July 19, 2019 #31 Share Posted July 19, 2019 49 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: CCL wants HAL passengers to leave HAL and go to Seabourn when their wants change for smaller and better experience. Making HAL a competitor of their Seabourn rather than a feederwould not be productive foe them What CCL wants /thinks will happen is NOT what seems to be happening. Seabourn has a lot of competition out there and most CC’ers that I know have not moved to Seabourn. It’s a small sampling of course but they are moving to Viking, Oceania, Azamara and Silversea, etc. Just because people liked Prinsendam is no guarantee they will stay loyal to CCL. In fact, a number of people I knew on Prinsendam who were very high star Mariners only sailed Prinsendam. They didn’t sail any other HAL ship. Rather, they sailed other cruise lines. I suspect they will all return to them. JMO though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepWaterMariner Posted July 19, 2019 #32 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Interesting pictures. I sailed on the ship in a pre-Prinsendam design, when she was the Seabourn Sun, and several times in her Holland America design. Sorry to see her go, but this is the fate of aging cruise ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickb Posted July 19, 2019 #33 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I think we should celebrate that there is a cruise line out there that is prepared to spend what is obviously a considerable amount of money on renovating what is a near 40 year old ship. Phoenix Reisen has a very loyal following of passengers who enjoy cruising on smaller more traditional ships. Her sisters will be the Artania ex Royal Princess, Amadea ex Asuka and Albatross one of the old Royal Viking Ships. I think Peter Deilmann’s old Deutschland has also recently joined the fleet. Rather than bewailing the fact that she has gone - why not book a cruise and celebrate her in her new guise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare kazu Posted July 19, 2019 #34 Share Posted July 19, 2019 11 minutes ago, Mickb said: Rather than bewailing the fact that she has gone - why not book a cruise and celebrate her in her new guise? While DH and I are comfortable in several languages, German is not one of the languages either of us speak, unfortunately. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Himself Posted July 19, 2019 #35 Share Posted July 19, 2019 17 hours ago, Copper10-8 said: She departs Bremerhaven on her first voyage for Phoenix on 21 Aug 2019 That is the day after my 80th Birthday. When did I get so old? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammiedawg Posted July 19, 2019 #36 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Carnival Corp has Seabourn for any loyalists who love the brand. Premium and luxury lines have flourished for decades. Their customer base mostly came over from mass market lines like Holland America, Princess, Celebrity. We’ve been on quite a few of these lines. They are more expensive but their overall products are superior. Not many of their customers go back and forth to the mass markets but many alternate the premium and luxury lines. Trying something different is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storylady Posted July 19, 2019 #37 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Thanks John for posting. The Prinsendam was our favorite ship and we were lucky to do the last Kiel Canal, the last Panama Canal, the last Antarctica Cruise, the last cruise that took her to the top of Norway and back to Amsterdam where she left to go to the shipyards in Hamburg. She may have been old, but she was even able to visit new ports of call even during her last cruises: Isle of Jersey, Arendal Norway and Esjberg Denmark. She cut through the waves like no other ship we have sailed on. And if we could speak German, we would sail on her as the Amera like some President Club friends plan on doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted July 19, 2019 #38 Share Posted July 19, 2019 3 hours ago, kazu said: What CCL wants /thinks will happen is NOT what seems to be happening. Seabourn has a lot of competition out there and most CC’ers that I know have not moved to Seabourn. It’s a small sampling of course but they are moving to Viking, Oceania, Azamara and Silversea, etc. Just because people liked Prinsendam is no guarantee they will stay loyal to CCL. In fact, a number of people I knew on Prinsendam who were very high star Mariners only sailed Prinsendam. They didn’t sail any other HAL ship. Rather, they sailed other cruise lines. I suspect they will all return to them. JMO though. Yes I suspect that your right that prinsendam specific customers will go to other lines. However, I still see that Carnival corp/ business plan is to offer a series of ever increasing experiences within its vale. In this way customers will still retain their corp status if they move upward within the partners. It is possible that maybe Carnival wanted to rid its self of a distraction for marketing Seabourn... The Prinsendam was standing in the way of that. In that vein, constructing new small ships would be competition to Seabourn and their passenger " development" model for not bigger and bigger, but better and better experiences.. Customers willing to seek and be willing to pay higher and higher fares. So is Carnival wringing its hands at the loss of long term HAL passengers? I think they they see this as getting rid of expensive old dead wood who was costing them in benefits, to make way for newer customers who they conditioned as they rose in the Carnival experience plan. I might be wrong but I see this sort of systemic marketing in other places Hotel chains, Airlines, Autos...... Just my observation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted July 19, 2019 #39 Share Posted July 19, 2019 54 minutes ago, Mickb said: I think we should celebrate that there is a cruise line out there that is prepared to spend what is obviously a considerable amount of money on renovating what is a near 40 year old ship. Phoenix Reisen has a very loyal following of passengers who enjoy cruising on smaller more traditional ships. Her sisters will be the Artania ex Royal Princess, Amadea ex Asuka and Albatross one of the old Royal Viking Ships. I think Peter Deilmann’s old Deutschland has also recently joined the fleet. Rather than bewailing the fact that she has gone - why not book a cruise and celebrate her in her new guise? Actualy Prinsendam was also an Old Royal Viking ship too... back in the day Royal Viking was THE top dog.... Perhaps Phoenix will restore her to pre HAL modifications.. as THe Royal Viking SUN.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted July 19, 2019 #40 Share Posted July 19, 2019 21 minutes ago, sammiedawg said: Carnival Corp has Seabourn for any loyalists who love the brand. Premium and luxury lines have flourished for decades. Their customer base mostly came over from mass market lines like Holland America, Princess, Celebrity. We’ve been on quite a few of these lines. They are more expensive but their overall products are superior. Not many of their customers go back and forth to the mass markets but many alternate the premium and luxury lines. Trying something different is good. You do get what you pay for... yes, you may pay 50 to 100% more but the overall product and experience are 200-300% greater value.. Time is more valuable than money... to get the best experience of that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2LoveBikes Posted July 19, 2019 #41 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Thank you for the photos and update on her renovations. Truly appreciate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammiedawg Posted July 19, 2019 #42 Share Posted July 19, 2019 27 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: You do get what you pay for... yes, you may pay 50 to 100% more but the overall product and experience are 200-300% greater value.. Time is more valuable than money... to get the best experience of that time. Totally agree. If I don’t care for the cruise ship or hotel I feel like I’m wasting my time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whogo Posted July 19, 2019 #43 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I was impressed by this one: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arzz Posted July 19, 2019 #44 Share Posted July 19, 2019 We sailed the Prinsendam several times between 2007 and 2018. We will miss her very much and were saddened that it did not work out for us to be on her final cruise. The photos of a beloved ship being eviscerated that were posted by Copper 10-8 (thank you Copper for doing this) are both horrifying and exciting. So sad to see what is left of so many very familiar spaces - yet there is a somewhat exciting hope to realize that she will have another life very soon. On our last Prinsendam voyage it was quite clear that she needed big work ... water dripping from the ceiling into the dining room and kitchen, teak decking that was so thin that it squished down and squirted water up from between the teak boards after rain ... we are, however, very sorry that HAL chose not to do the necessary work themselves. One of her big attractions were the small ports where we could enjoy the sights without hordes of other cruisers as well as the more intimate atmosphere on board ship. As to the future - we are currently on the fence. After much soul searching last year we chose Antarctica for January 2019 on Seabourn rather than Prinsendam (we were lured by the zodiac landings) and we have to admit that the Seabourn experience, in total, was outstanding. Last May it was a Pacific crossing on the Noordam which was unbelievably inexpensive yet it was also a stellar cruise experience. For September we will be round trip Dublin on Seabourn. Not sure where we will land, though we definitely prefer the small ship experience - but due to tariffs we will cruise only a fraction of the days that we cruised on HAL. Too bad we can no longer have this experience on Holland America. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted July 19, 2019 #45 Share Posted July 19, 2019 10 hours ago, sevenseasnomad said: Carnival Corp. has chosen to sell the smaller ships in the HAL fleet, claiming they're not profitable. I wonder if they'd elected to renovate these ships, particularly such a beloved ship like Prinsendam, would they retain a lot of loyal HAL passengers who are now booking with other lines, some of which aren't even connected to Carnival Corp? I would love to think that some time in the future Carnival Corp. would consider smaller new ships, maybe 2-3 for HAL. Does anyone see this happening or am I building "castles in the sky"? I think the cost of building a new small ship would be prohibitive -- it would require much higher per diem rates than HAL could likely command. That's the reality. As far as renovating an existing ship, there may be some potential -- the question would be whether it's in HAL's strategic plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storylady Posted July 19, 2019 #46 Share Posted July 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, arzz said: We sailed the Prinsendam several times between 2007 and 2018. We will miss her very much and were saddened that it did not work out for us to be on her final cruise. The photos of a beloved ship being eviscerated that were posted by Copper 10-8 (thank you Copper for doing this) are both horrifying and exciting. So sad to see what is left of so many very familiar spaces - yet there is a somewhat exciting hope to realize that she will have another life very soon. On our last Prinsendam voyage it was quite clear that she needed big work ... water dripping from the ceiling into the dining room and kitchen, teak decking that was so thin that it squished down and squirted water up from between the teak boards after rain ... we are, however, very sorry that HAL chose not to do the necessary work themselves. One of her big attractions were the small ports where we could enjoy the sights without hordes of other cruisers as well as the more intimate atmosphere on board ship. As to the future - we are currently on the fence. After much soul searching last year we chose Antarctica for January 2019 on Seabourn rather than Prinsendam (we were lured by the zodiac landings) and we have to admit that the Seabourn experience, in total, was outstanding. Last May it was a Pacific crossing on the Noordam which was unbelievably inexpensive yet it was also a stellar cruise experience. For September we will be round trip Dublin on Seabourn. Not sure where we will land, though we definitely prefer the small ship experience - but due to tariffs we will cruise only a fraction of the days that we cruised on HAL. Too bad we can no longer have this experience on Holland America. As for the shape the Prinsendam was in. She actually was in the best shape we have ever seen during her last two months final voyages. I am sure a lot of problems were taken care of during dry dock in December. And we were told that she had to be as good or better than the day they sold her. HAL leased her for the last year’s sailings. They were NOT even allowed to take anything off the wall. Although, I did see most of the Prinsendam port call plaques were taken down as we cruised. They even had to send out a letter requesting passengers from dismantling the ship. People especially wanted the HAL emblem with the Half Moon that are in front of most staterooms. So sorry that she couldn’t make it as the last Norwegian Cruise was really special. As was the Antarctica and South Georgia Island especially as we were allowed to go a short on the most perfect day you could have requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted July 19, 2019 #47 Share Posted July 19, 2019 4 hours ago, DeepWaterMariner said: Interesting pictures. I sailed on the ship in a pre-Prinsendam design, when she was the Seabourn Sun, and several times in her Holland America design. Sorry to see her go, but this is the fate of aging cruise ships. Phoenix Reissen obviously doesn't agree. They are putting a substantial amount into her. It seems from other comments on this thread that they already have another ship of her lineage, so perhaps they realize there is a market for a well-designed, well-built smaller vessel. However, they don't have mass-market pressure. All the same, I am happy rather than sad to see the photos -- I'd much rather see the Prinsendam nicely launched into her second (third?) life than headed for the breakers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted July 19, 2019 #48 Share Posted July 19, 2019 11 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: I think the cost of building a new small ship would be prohibitive -- it would require much higher per diem rates than HAL could likely command. That's the reality. . Totaly agree different economic market foreign to HAL's demographic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted July 19, 2019 #49 Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 hour ago, sammiedawg said: Not many of their customers go back and forth to the mass markets but many alternate the premium and luxury lines. Trying something different is good. Actually I've read quite a few posts from folks who cruise HAL and also Viking or Oceania or even Crystal and Seabourne. I don't know if it happens with other mass-market lines, as HAL is about the only one I follow anymore. But I read it here and I read it on the premium and luxury brand boards. Trying something different IS good. I agree and have four cruises booked over the next couple of years: HAL, Celebrity, Crystal and Oceania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare TiogaCruiser Posted July 19, 2019 #50 Share Posted July 19, 2019 11 hours ago, Texgal13 said: We were on her Jan-Mar this year and bath is the same except for shower curtain! Same here. But I recognize that shower curtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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