The Incident

[Druke I]

Reference your two questions:

 

No (unless you were foolish enough to be sitting on the balcony railing) and No.

[fourml8r]

I am sure it was a scary event,and am not trying to minimize anyones fear at all...But I do have a question..

 

First...Does anyone think they were truly in danger now,knowing that the ship was just doing a "sharp" turn?...

I guess what I am trying to ask is....was it really a dangerous move,and was there a possibility the ship could have been compromised,such as taking on water etc...

I mean...ok,I have had scary situations...then realized what it was and I was not "scared" anymore...

arrrggg...this is not coming out right...:(

 

What I hear is people saying they were very scared and may not sail again.But does knowing that it just "seemed" scare and not necessarily dangerous help get over the "scare"..:confused:

 

I do know one thing...The next time I am onboard anyship....I am going to question the first staff captain I can get to..."Is this turn the only choice they had"..

 

I posted on Mirandas first thread that there was a news story here a few years ago about the same sort of thing with a tanker...

Because of the narrowness of the ship lanes there,and the other traffic around,they were forced to make a turn like that to return...and someone had fallen off??

 

Anyway...Welcome home everyone...Sorry for the cold that greeted you on your return here...Its rare :)

 

We were in the dining room on deck 5. The water level is normally at deck 3. When this happened (Note: We had NO WARNING at all) I was literally looking out the window on deck 5 and looking straight into the ocean. I was scared for my life. I literally yanked my 5 year old daughter out of her seat and ran for our lives with her in my arms. It was terrible trying to get out since the dining room floor was littered with debris (Broken glasses, dishes silverware, chairs etc. and the marble portions of the floor were wet and slippery) My wife literally fell right down when she tried to stand up. Lucky for us we only have some bumps and bruises. The event in itself was the scarriest thing I have expericenced in my life.

 

At this point without all the information I am not blaming anyone, but I do question the potential danger to all the passengers/crew to rush one person to the hospital. If it was that much of an emergency then they should have air lifted (Medivac) the person off the ship immediately.

[madelinerose]

Michael, thank you a million times! Isn't knowledge a wonderful thing? ;)

 

Reference your two questions: No (unless you were foolish enough to be sitting on the balcony railing) and No.

[peterv]

I would think you would need at least a 45 degree roll in order to get the open decks into the water, this would be starting with the Promenade deck and going up.

 

Not that standing on your balcony looking at the water coming towards you wouldn't look quite scary!

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Cruise38]

This is my first post to this subject but here I go. Anything can happen at anytime in this life. I have ridden out 3 hurricanes and had the Regal do a sharp(without notice) turn in the inside passage because a fishing boat got in front of her. I have to admit that I was nervous during the 1st hurricane, but after that put my faith in the Captain. I know that some have said that perhaps the Captain on the Grand acted irresponsibly, but I do not believe that. I believe their are circumstances here that we will never know about, and perhaps some heads will roll. That is not for me to second guess. I have one very important piece of advice for all here. There was a thread some time ago about do you or do you not go to muster drill - GO. I will never stop cruising(until they take me to the nursing home) because I think it is a great way to travel.

 

I could trip at home and hit my head.

 

Barbara

[fourml8r]

I would think you would need at least a 45 degree roll in order to get the open decks into the water, this would be starting with the Promenade deck and going up.

 

Not that standing on your balcony looking at the water coming towards you wouldn't look quite scary!

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

The ocean level was up to deck 5 during the turn (We saw it rght outside our Michelangelo dining room window). It was nowhere near the Promenade deck (Deck 7).

[surfklutz]

Like you, I have refrained for chiming in on this thread. I've been on ships that have taken serious rolls, and it can be frightening, particularly when plates are crashing to the floor, people falling, etc.

 

Gross generalization of course, but I think you are better off lower than higher. When the ship is rolling, think of a metronome - the higher the more pronounced the swing. I don't think I would change your cabin to a higher deck.

 

As far as pitching, think of the ship as a teeter-totter - the closer to midships, the less pronounced the up/down movement.

 

Closer to the water is, infact much more stable. Go low and middle

[peterv]

The ocean level was up to deck 5 during the turn (We saw it rght outside our Michelangelo dining room window). It was nowhere near the Promenade deck (Deck 7).

 

That is what I was saying. That you would need at least a 45 degree roll to get the open decks into the water. A 26 degree roll would definitely get deck 5 up to or into the water. Deck 5 is not an open deck.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[wookie]

I have not tried an attachment yet so I hope this works. We were on the 10th floor during the tilt, and I wanted to see what a 45 Deg tilt looked like. So I got a picture of the back of the Grand Princess, and rotated it 45 deg. I then added a horizontal line as a rough estimate of where the water line would be during a tilt (a lot of the hull on the high side side should be exposed). From what I can see, at this amount of tilt, the water lever should be up to the 11th floor

 

Take the following with a grain of salt, as it is second hand information, and you know how sometimes things can change as they go from person to person, but .........

According to a fellow passenger who said he got this directly from one of the few crew members who was willing to say anything. Is that we listed to over 19 deg. The same crew member said that if we would have hit 21 deg the ship would have capsized. He also said that when the Grand Princess was built it was put through an externsive battery of tests where it was turned at full speed, and at which time they could could not get it to list very much. This is why there was no warning given when it was decided to turn the ship around fast. No one anticipated any type of malfunction.

[Globaliser]

So I got a picture of the back of the Grand Princess, and rotated it 45 deg. I then added a horizontal line as a rough estimate of where the water line would be during a tilt (a lot of the hull on the high side side should be exposed).

With respect, the line you have drawn is almost certainly far too high up the ship.

 

The position of the waterline at any roll angle is difficult to guess by eye, because you have to work out the line which leaves exactly the same volume below the waterline as when there is no roll. Without knowing the geometry of what is under the normal waterline, you can't work out where the new waterline should be.

 

However, a quick look at any model of a modern cruise ship will show you that normally very little is under the waterline - they're designed with shallow drafts so that they can get into the usual ports. It looks to me like there's far far too much underwater volume below your estimated waterline.

... The same crew member said that if we would have hit 21 deg the ship would have capsized. ...

I would be very surprised if the ship's critical roll angle was as little as this. I have heard it said that IMO stability requirements mean that the critical angle should be at least 50 degrees.

[ChrissyM_Cruiser]

He also said that when the Grand Princess was built it was put through an externsive battery of tests where it was turned at full speed, and at which time they could could not get it to list very much. This is why there was no warning given when it was decided to turn the ship around fast. No one anticipated any type of malfunction.

 

Uh Oh, could bdjam's MUTS theory hold water?

[jennew]

I don't think the line in the pic represents the waterline but rather the horizon. I could be wrong, but look at the horizon and compare. Either way, it shows the angle and it looks pretty steep.

[kayguz]

My friend and I were in the spa when "it" happened. Had we known that we were turning it would've helped us a bit- I think. It was dusk and with the windows we could see calm seas and the horizon. During the turn, the horizon got smaller and smaller- to none- and stuff was sliding/crashing into us. When the water came in, we knew we weren't "in the ocean", but hadn't realized it was the smaller spa pool dumping inside- it added to the overall sensation. We had attended muster, however, there are no lifejackets in the spa (that we noticed) and there wouldn't have been time to muster anyway! If we had capsized there would be nothing but a prayer for our situation. We just kept waiting to level out. It was like slow motion- realizing what could be happening in moments. Visions of my children and husband (kids at home, dh in cabin). When we righted and boogied towards the cabin we heard we had turned around- that calmed us a bit- thinking that something is wrong with the ship and heading back. We were ready to get off- and this was our 7th cruise. Our dh's had been on the "up" side of things on the balcony towards the back (D704)- they knew immediately we had turned as they could see the wake. THey heard the commotion but hadn't any idea of the damage that was ocurring/had ocurred. So, alot is based on where you were to experience it. I would've freaked with the dining room too- especially since panic spreads. We were somewhat isolated in the spa, but the crew was obviously concerned and quite nervous.

 

ANyway, we're booking Princess again banking on the fact that this was a once in a lifetime experience! Always go to muster and always have a second way out!

 

Kay

[captlou]

It appears that all of the chatter about our safety has been reduced to the likelyhood that the Grand would sink. I believe that we were never in danger of sinking, but the potential for other injuries, and deaths, during the maneuver far outweighed the captain's need to turn quickly. The injuries suffered by so many people illustrates just how foolish the captain's decision was when he gave the order.

 

I spoke with a Navy retiree on the last day. He served on Destroyers for 25 years, and said that he never saw such a glaring example of poor seamanship.

 

IMHO:

1. The high speed u-turn was initiated, and the ship started to list

2. The ship turned into it's own wake, and heeled about 18 degrees

3. The stabilizers tried to compensate, and the ship quickly righted itself, causing most of the damage

 

I've been in rough seas where things were flying around. I've been on ships that sailed through storms. This was not a case of mother nature working against us, but blatant incompetence. Princess did indeed go into full legal protection mode, and will most likely do their best to make this go away without it costing too much money. Hiding behind their contracts is what they do best.

[cnmiranda]

Hi Captlou, it is so nice to hear from you as I did think of you when all this happened. Glad to see you are back. I hope you got to enjoy a lot of the cruise in spite of Saturday's event:)

[cnmiranda]

 

Take the following with a grain of salt, as it is second hand information, and you know how sometimes things can change as they go from person to person, but .........

According to a fellow passenger who said he got this directly from one of the few crew members who was willing to say anything. Is that we listed to over 19 deg. The same crew member said that if we would have hit 21 deg the ship would have capsized. He also said that when the Grand Princess was built it was put through an externsive battery of tests where it was turned at full speed, and at which time they could could not get it to list very much. This is why there was no warning given when it was decided to turn the ship around fast. No one anticipated any type of malfunction.

 

That's pretty darn spooky, can anyone else confirm that we were indeed turned to 19 degrees and that we would have capsized at 21?

 

Another rumor I read on a different cruise message board.... it said that the captain was having dinner with his sister when this happened and he was not there when the incident occurred, can anyone confirm?

[weloveagoodvacation]

Hi all from the fateful day......

Here is "our" take on it. We were in our cabin on the Dolphin Deck (9th level) starboard side. Mr. was in bed napping and I was reading and watching the view. I noticed the ship "list" and thinking about the posts from CC about the ship listing from time to time. Well when it didn't correct itself I noticed how the rail of the balcony was dropping below the horizon, further and further. I panicked slightly and ran for the door so I could grab something not sliding towards the balcony. My ever calm husband just lay there and I don't even think he rolled out of bed but maybe came close. Was I scared? Yes, definitely. Did I let it ruin my cruise experience, absolutely not! Did I feel bad for the people injured? Yes. Did I get angry when people were talking about how horrible it was and how they thought their cruise was ruined? Yep! While I did not feel the majority of the staff were particularly warm individuals and didn't like their jobs I did meet a few "incognito" ones on excursions and they seemed genuinely nice. Did I just get off the subject? Oops.

 

Bottom line, we will cruise again despite the incident but maybe try a different line due to the icy staff. Life and it's experiences are what you make of them. We will not/did not allow an isolated incident ruin our hard earned vacation time and money. While it would be nice for the cruise line to offer some type of credit to all passengers as a sign of goodwill to offhandedly acknowledge there was some sort of problem we are not holding our breath.

 

Great meeting all the CC'ers at the sailaway and sorry we didn't run into you all again but maybe another time.

[AliceJ]

We were on the 2/4 Grand cruising. Some quick comments;

 

WeloveaGoodVacation - would cruise with you any time, any where!! Great attitude! Thanks for giving a reasonable perspective on the cruise!! Hope you enjoyed!!

 

CaptLou: so glad you came out!!! Hope you all got some R&R and a good break!!

 

I have to make one observation (yeah, I'm posting on various threads as I'm reading them, so forgive me I'm repeating myself). While many people on the cruise said the feared for their lives (and I am not discounting their fear, as no one can qualify how someone else feels), this whole "incident" took place over less than 5 minutes (and I'm REALLY stretching this time). The captain told us what the issue was withing a half hour (again, this is stretching the actual time). What was the likelihood of anything like this happening again on our cruise?? This shouldn't have ruined anyone's cruise - again, you are responsible, to a great extent, for your own good time. I spoke to MANY first time cruisers who took this incident in stride and were doing just fine.

 

Also, keep in mind that the captain is up to his armpits in s***. Not only does he have unhappy passengers, there was a lot of damage to the ship, including a high proportion of the liquor supply. He doesn't need to fear the passengers, I am SURE Princess HQ will be "talking" to him.

 

By the way.... if it were my loved one who had a massive heart attack, you better believe I would support the captain's actions. One thing he could have done was give us some sort of warning.

 

Smooth sailing to all!!

[Suzieb]

I would agree with captlou about the poor seamanship. Most cruise ships are not really setup to roll much beyond 5 degrees in normal conditions. As bridge officers they should have known that a sharp turn will induce major rolling in relation to the ships speed. My memory as a helmsman on board a Destroy Escort at 20+ knots, the order to steer to port without a rudder order, allowed me to use best judgement. Well, at that speed no more than 5 degrees would be needed, but a 20 degree rudder got the ship to the course we needed really fast, but it included a 25+ degree roll! Nobody got hurt, but most knew who was at the helm and I never lived it down! Anyway a good bridge officer would have ordered an all stop and pivoted using the bow and stern thrusters.

 

Hope most of those that went through the maneuver, I hope that you have made it through with out any bad memories, and if you got injured, I hope you are better now.

 

Take care

[mr green]

I read a post on another thread, and the information was that a medical emergency had occured. The poster went on to say that he went and booked another cruise, with Princess, after the turn! He also stated that the crew acted 'in a profesional manner'. john

[c_galle]

It appears that all of the chatter about our safety has been reduced to the likelyhood that the Grand would sink. I believe that we were never in danger of sinking, but the potential for other injuries, and deaths, during the maneuver far outweighed the captain's need to turn quickly. The injuries suffered by so many people illustrates just how foolish the captain's decision was when he gave the order.

 

I spoke with a Navy retiree on the last day. He served on Destroyers for 25 years, and said that he never saw such a glaring example of poor seamanship.

 

IMHO:

1. The high speed u-turn was initiated, and the ship started to list

2. The ship turned into it's own wake, and heeled about 18 degrees

3. The stabilizers tried to compensate, and the ship quickly righted itself, causing most of the damage

 

I've been in rough seas where things were flying around. I've been on ships that sailed through storms. This was not a case of mother nature working against us, but blatant incompetence. Princess did indeed go into full legal protection mode, and will most likely do their best to make this go away without it costing too much money. Hiding behind their contracts is what they do best.

 

WTH makes you any kind of expert? You believe? IMHO? 1. High speed, you were at crusing speed. 2. Turned into it's own wake? Please, A ship that size would take 15 times its length to cross its wake. Stabilizers? I think you need to take a course on navigation. When you do, we will appreciate your advice. Untill then, "I believe" means nothing more.

[c_galle]

It appears that all of the chatter about our safety has been reduced to the likelyhood that the Grand would sink. I believe that we were never in danger of sinking, but the potential for other injuries, and deaths, during the maneuver far outweighed the captain's need to turn quickly. The injuries suffered by so many people illustrates just how foolish the captain's decision was when he gave the order.

 

I spoke with a Navy retiree on the last day. He served on Destroyers for 25 years, and said that he never saw such a glaring example of poor seamanship.

 

IMHO:

1. The high speed u-turn was initiated, and the ship started to list

2. The ship turned into it's own wake, and heeled about 18 degrees

3. The stabilizers tried to compensate, and the ship quickly righted itself, causing most of the damage

 

I've been in rough seas where things were flying around. I've been on ships that sailed through storms. This was not a case of mother nature working against us, but blatant incompetence. Princess did indeed go into full legal protection mode, and will most likely do their best to make this go away without it costing too much money. Hiding behind their contracts is what they do best.

 

Okay your expertise is you speaking to a navy veteren. 25 years in the Navy and Half of your time is "Sea Time", almost never do you do 2+ tours on a similiar class of ship. "Poor Seamanship" is a call best left to those in charge of the situation. What judgement do you make in the bathroom, in bed, eating dinner, shopping? Please

[rkdahl]

I'd be willing to bet my next cruise that something like this happened:

 

- Someone gives order and approval to change course to handle medical situation

 

- Jr officer enters course change in nav computer and executes it, which he has done hundreds of times in the past for very small course changes.

 

- he forgets ship is moving at 20 knots and that he has basically requested a 180 degree turn, he enters the new course, ships computer responds executing the turn, tilting to a dangerous level before the bridge can react

 

We'll probably never know publicly, but it would be very interesting if there was an NTSB type investigation into this. And what was the role of the Captain in this manuever. Was he on the bridge or even aware of the turn before it happened, I'd guess not?

 

This is very similar to an airline pilot that programs the nav computer. During a night flight in 1995, a pilot flying to Columbia accidently entered the wrong nav point into their flight computer, the plane slowly turned in response, then flew into a mountain trying to turn to the new course. All aboard perished.

 

I sure hope Princess responds with some type of communication to all abord once an investigation is completed.

[Titan(ic)5.6]

I wish some kind of "event" would have happened on the rather "boring" cruises I have been on.

[AliceJ]

Okay your expertise is you speaking to a navy veteren. 25 years in the Navy and Half of your time is "Sea Time", almost never do you do 2+ tours on a similiar class of ship. "Poor Seamanship" is a call best left to those in charge of the situation. What judgement do you make in the bathroom, in bed, eating dinner, shopping? Please

 

 

IMHO means just that - an opinion, which we are all entitled to! Can none of us relay what others have relayed to us, or do we all need to file court papers to confirm info we have gleaned from others?

 

What judgment do you make online???

 

And your credentials please?