The Incident

[Celest1022]

We were on the 2/4 Grand cruising. Some quick comments;

 

WeloveaGoodVacation - would cruise with you any time, any where!! Great attitude! Thanks for giving a reasonable perspective on the cruise!! Hope you enjoyed!!

 

CaptLou: so glad you came out!!! Hope you all got some R&R and a good break!!

 

I have to make one observation (yeah, I'm posting on various threads as I'm reading them, so forgive me I'm repeating myself). While many people on the cruise said the feared for their lives (and I am not discounting their fear, as no one can qualify how someone else feels), this whole "incident" took place over less than 5 minutes (and I'm REALLY stretching this time). The captain told us what the issue was withing a half hour (again, this is stretching the actual time). What was the likelihood of anything like this happening again on our cruise?? This shouldn't have ruined anyone's cruise - again, you are responsible, to a great extent, for your own good time. I spoke to MANY first time cruisers who took this incident in stride and were doing just fine.

 

Also, keep in mind that the captain is up to his armpits in s***. Not only does he have unhappy passengers, there was a lot of damage to the ship, including a high proportion of the liquor supply. He doesn't need to fear the passengers, I am SURE Princess HQ will be "talking" to him.

 

By the way.... if it were my loved one who had a massive heart attack, you better believe I would support the captain's actions. One thing he could have done was give us some sort of warning.

 

Smooth sailing to all!!

 

 

 

 

As you state this event took no longer then 5 minutes, yet people were in fear for their lives. The more I read about this horrific event the more I equate it with the 1994 Northridge Earthquake, which I experienced. It took 7 seconds for the actual break at the epicenter and the shaking lasted I believe for less then 30 seconds.The fear factor that it evoked in humans lasted for years, at the onset of the quake. From reading the posts I can empathize for those who experienced this horrible event and whether the Capt or the crew or Princess were at fault the reality is these people had a traumatizing experience that will for some last their entire lifetime.

[jennew]

Okay your expertise is you speaking to a navy veteren. 25 years in the Navy and Half of your time is "Sea Time", almost never do you do 2+ tours on a similiar class of ship. "Poor Seamanship" is a call best left to those in charge of the situation. What judgement do you make in the bathroom, in bed, eating dinner, shopping? Please

 

C-galle you are really quite rude. and YES, I am an expert in that department. I rarely meet someone who can be more rude than I am.

[AliceJ]

As you state this event took no longer then 5 minutes, yet people were in fear for their lives. The more I read about this horrific event the more I equate it with the 1994 Northridge Earthquake, which I experienced. It took 7 seconds for the actual break at the epicenter and the shaking lasted I believe for less then 30 seconds.The fear factor that it evoked in humans lasted for years, at the onset of the quake. From reading the posts I can empathize for those who experienced this horrible event and whether the Capt or the crew or Princess were at fault the reality is these people had a traumatizing experience that will for some last their entire lifetime.

 

I find the comparison to an earthquake that would take away peoples' lives, homes, businesses and livelihoods to a 5 minute at-sea event where passengers completed a vacation and then traveled home to their lives, loved-ones, jobs, businesses hard to equate. Once off the ship, the rest of the passengers lives were as intact as they were before the incident, and if they are uncomfortable cruising, it is certainly understable if they choose not to cruise. As I've said before - I don't wish to minimize anyone's experience, but I don't think you make a fair comparison.

[jennew]

I think the comparison was to the fear it instilled in the people involved. It is a fair comparison because in both cases people feared for their lives.

[Globaliser]

I don't think the line in the pic represents the waterline but rather the horizon. I could be wrong, but look at the horizon and compare. Either way, it shows the angle and it looks pretty steep.

I took this from the poster's own post, where wookie said:-

I then added a horizontal line as a rough estimate of where the water line would be during a tilt (a lot of the hull on the high side side should be exposed).

[RodneyG]

The fact is that this was a stupid manouvre , there were/are alternatives that would not have affected the outcome or the pax'es survivability and not had the dire consequences or potential consequenses this had. I would not like to sail aboard a ship commanded or manned by such cretins. The hospitals aboard ship are generally manned by Drs trained in trauma medicine and facilities aboard are capable of coping with the direst of circumstances - even an emergency operation. In this case , either the pax was dead , in which case it didnt matter or had to been in some way stabilised , in which case 5-10 minutes didn't matter either. One passengers life is NOT worth risking a ship of 5000 souls for under any circumstance let alone circumstances where there is NO certainty that this action WOULD make the difference.

Had it been me or a loved one , I would never have insisted that this course of action be taken with the potential consequences in mind. In essence , whoever commanded the ship and took this action was either unfit or untrained to do so or had total disregard for the majority of ppl in his care. It's lucky that no one else was killed , luck being the operative word here. If I were an injured pax from this little fiasco , I would institute a lawsuit , this wasnt due to a force of nature or anything beyond the ship and it's crews control. This is much like those folk who will cause a multiple pile up on a freeway cos they stopped in the mist to avoid some creature crossing the road - sheer stupidity. It would have taken all of 20 secs to broadcast an alert throughout the ship advising pax to brace , things on planes happen in a FAR shorter timespan and pax are notified in time. This whole episode , unless a force or nature r some unforseen glitch with the puter program sterrring the ship , was totally preventable and a pretty good example of poor seamanship.

[Celest1022]

I find the comparison to an earthquake that would take away peoples' lives, homes, businesses and livelihoods to a 5 minute at-sea event where passengers completed a vacation and then traveled home to their lives, loved-ones, jobs, businesses hard to equate. Once off the ship, the rest of the passengers lives were as intact as they were before the incident, and if they are uncomfortable cruising, it is certainly understable if they choose not to cruise. As I've said before - I don't wish to minimize anyone's experience, but I don't think you make a fair comparison.

 

I'm assuming you've never had a traumatic experience. Invision someone shooting a gun over your head,,,the event would be mili seconds but I'd bet it would instill fear in you and change your life. Most traumatic experiences dont have to involve a long duration of time and they do alter ones life in that exact moment. As for the earthquake,,the moment it happened we feared we were going to die. As it subsided shock set in. Our thoughts at that moment was purely survival. We had no contact with the outside world for a day and a half due to the power was out so we had no idea what had occured other then our immediate surroundings (neighbors).The extending circumstances such has the death toll,,,losing home, jobs only made this horrific event that much worse.

[captlou]

WTH makes you any kind of expert? You believe? IMHO? 1. High speed, you were at crusing speed. 2. Turned into it's own wake? Please, A ship that size would take 15 times its length to cross its wake. Stabilizers? I think you need to take a course on navigation. When you do, we will appreciate your advice. Untill then, "I believe" means nothing more.

I have been boating for 35 years, and teach boating safety and boat handling (I just finished serving as the Executive Officer for my local US Power Squadron). I used "I believe" and "IMHO" simply because I wasn't on the bridge, and don't know for sure what happened. I GIVE courses on navigation, and have taken an Advanced Piloting course. It didn't cross it's wake, but got hit broadside when it came around, causing it to heel.

 

Cruising speed is high speed when turning hard over.

 

The ship has state-of-the-art stabilizers which would have had a delayed reaction to the drastic action taken by the helmsman.

 

Now, can you give me your qualifications that allow you to refute my theories?

 

BTW, aside from the "incident,"and the less than desirable attitude of most of the crew, we had a good cruise. We met some great people through this forum, and enjoyed their company for the week.

[captlou]

RodneyG - Be careful! There's a flamer in our midst, who doesn't think people should express their opinions. :eek: I wonder if "that person" was on the ship?

 

RKDahl - Another plausible theory. Unfortunately, Princess will do their best to make sure we never know the truth.

 

People that were injured were unable to get their medical records from the ship. (YES, before you flame me, I spoke to them personally). Princess went into full legal protection mode from the minute the incident occured.

[Tejasice]

I am going on a cruise over March break and after reading all the 'incident' statements, I'd be lying if I said they didn't make me nervous... but then I try to remember that we can change the things we are in control of and have to live or die as a result of the things we are not in control of. In other words... Live for the moment cause when your number is up it won't matter how you died only how well you lived during the time you had. ;)

 

After 9/11 my kids were terrified of 'what ifs', so I told them that by living each day as if it were their last would ensure they never had to worry about 'what ifs'. That is how I try to deal with life's challeges.

Is it a perfect solution? No, but living sure beats the alternative... wish the terrorists would figure that out. :rolleyes:

[captlou]

I am going on a cruise over March break and after reading all the 'incident' statements, I'd be lying if I said they didn't make me nervous...

The "incident" was truly an isolated occurence, and I have never had an experience that even came close during the 13 other cruises we have taken. We will cruise again next winter (we spend our summer vacations on our own boat), it just won't be on a Princess ship. Most cruise ship captains seem to be extremely competent (MY opinion, from MY experience, and MY observations), and handle bad seas and storms with the comfort and safety of their passengers in mind.

 

You have a great attitude, and it coincides with the way I try to approach life. We almost cancelled the cruise, because we lost our son a couple of weeks before we were scheduled to go; but our family, employer, and friends convinced us to "get away from it all." We took the "incident" in stride, even though my wife fell in the shower when Captain U-turn had his crew execute a drastic action, while he was absent from the bridge. Standing on 5th Avenue, watching the Twin Towers collapse was much more scary than the pitching of the Grand Princess. However, the crewman who was severely burned in the galley, and the one who broke his neck, probably have different opinions.

 

Enjoy your cruise, and every day thereafter........ Every day is a great day. If you don't think so, just try missing one of them!

[treesah]

Lou, please accept my condolences for the loss of your child.

[c_galle]

IMHO means just that - an opinion, which we are all entitled to! Can none of us relay what others have relayed to us, or do we all need to file court papers to confirm info we have gleaned from others?

 

What judgment do you make online???

 

And your credentials please?

 

Chief Petty Officer, USN. 13 Years active Duty, 1 Year Reserves. Surface Warfare Qualified, Officer of the Deck, Paratrooper. Currently working as Civilian in the USNORTHCOM Joint Operations Center. TS/SCI clearance with access to all maritime events that happen in US Waters.

 

Schools attended: Maritime Watch Officer, Rescue Swimmer, Team Navigation, Radar Navigation and experience as the piloting and navigation officer of one of those Haze Gray Ships.

 

The simple point is if you don't have a clue how a ship operates then maybe your opinion is that same. I don't proffess to know how to remove a gall bladder in the ER because I am not a Doctor.

[Tejasice]

The "incident" was truly an isolated occurence, and I have never had an experience that even came close during the 13 other cruises we have taken. We will cruise again next winter (we spend our summer vacations on our own boat), it just won't be on a Princess ship. Most cruise ship captains seem to be extremely competent (MY opinion, from MY experience, and MY observations), and handle bad seas and storms with the comfort and safety of their passengers in mind.

 

You have a great attitude, and it coincides with the way I try to approach life. We almost cancelled the cruise, because we lost our son a couple of weeks before we were scheduled to go; but our family, employer, and friends convinced us to "get away from it all." We took the "incident" in stride, even though my wife fell in the shower when Captain U-turn had his crew execute a drastic action, while he was absent from the bridge. Standing on 5th Avenue, watching the Twin Towers collapse was much more scary than the pitching of the Grand Princess. However, the crewman who was severely burned in the galley, and the one who broke his neck, probably have different opinions.

 

Enjoy your cruise, and every day thereafter........ Every day is a great day. If you don't think so, just try missing one of them!

I'm sorry for your loss, but am happy you chose to go on living... your son would have wanted no less for you.

[cnmiranda]

FWIW, take it as you will, my fil was in the navy for 27 years and spent 8-9 years of it at sea, from reading our "live" reports he feels the skipper, whoever that was, made the error:) It is only a guess.

[captlou]

Chief Petty Officer, USN. 13 Years active Duty, 1 Year Reserves. Surface Warfare Qualified, Officer of the Deck, Paratrooper. Currently working as Civilian in the USNORTHCOM Joint Operations Center. TS/SCI clearance with access to all maritime events that happen in US Waters.

 

Schools attended: Maritime Watch Officer, Rescue Swimmer, Team Navigation, Radar Navigation and experience as the piloting and navigation officer of one of those Haze Gray Ships.

 

The simple point is if you don't have a clue how a ship operates then maybe your opinion is that same. I don't proffess to know how to remove a gall bladder in the ER because I am not a Doctor.

Granted, you have much more experience than me. In your much more educated opinion what was the error that caused the ship to heel 18 degrees (confirmed by more than one crew member) and then slam back down, causing shipwide damage and injuries? What may have been a less dangerous way to execute the maneuver? If you were not on the ship, then your rantings mean less than my opinion. I could see what was happening from my balcony. As you pointed out, I made it clear in several ways that I was giving just that: my personal opinion. I don't mind being corrected, and would actually welcome someone who could let me know what actually happened; but there is no reason for aggresive, nasty attacks on an open forum.

[Quenby]

Hi again, Captlou and cnmiranda!

 

Having worked a number of years in emergency management, my biggest complaint was that they did not try to mitigate this "incident" by warning passengers and crew. I was in the Michelangelo dining room on level 5, so I probably did not have the full experience of people on Lido (14). There was only a period of 5 to 10 seconds that I thought the ship might actually go over. I thought the dining and cabin staff did a great job in immediately cleaning up & trying to get food out. I had a great cruise from Sunday to Friday.

[rkdahl]

I've decided that before we sail again on Princess, and I do have a Summer cruise booked already for 11 of us, that I am going to write a letter to Princess Cruise lines. I will simply ask them to explain what they have done, or are going to do, to prevent this type of 'failure' from occuring in the future with any of their ships. Depending on the response I will decide whether to ever sail on Princess Cruise lines again.

 

I am convinced this was an accident. There is no way anyone would have ever intentionally turned the ship causing a list to such a degree. All I would like to know is what they are doing to prevent it from happening on any of their ships. Correct the operational procedures, make a software update to the navigation computer to not allow such a command without an override, have a Sr officer approve and verify the order, etc. Just explain to us all how they are going to protect our safety. How many times have I heard that is their number one priority?

 

Pretty simple request and I look forward to their response.

[captlou]

Pretty simple request and I look forward to their response.

Don't hold your breath for a response. Unless, of course, you look good in blue.:D

[lindalu62]

The Austin American Statesman did an article on this event. Based upon what I read in that factual article, this was a very serious event. Sounds to me that a number of the responders to the OP are trying to downplay how serious this was. The pool emptied into the buffet area, and cabins were flooded. I don't have the article in front of me, but it was clear that it was an extreme angle that the ship tilted into. Yes, maybe the captain was responding to a medical emergency, but sounds as if this turn could have very well caused many more medical emergencies. A number of passengers and crew were treated for injuries. This captain should be fired.

[cnmiranda]

Hi again, Captlou and cnmiranda!

 

Having worked a number of years in emergency management, my biggest complaint was that they did not try to mitigate this "incident" by warning passengers and crew. I was in the Michelangelo dining room on level 5, so I probably did not have the full experience of people on Lido (14). There was only a period of 5 to 10 seconds that I thought the ship might actually go over. I thought the dining and cabin staff did a great job in immediately cleaning up & trying to get food out. I had a great cruise from Sunday to Friday.

 

 

Hi Quinby, sorry we didn't get to meet. I feel the same way, that we should have been warned. That's the big "oops" that tells me this wasn't planned, well that and all the damage/bumps and scrapes:) And I agree about the staff. I am miffed that some are reporting the crew wasn't that good in their opinion, to me it's been the best so far. I do have video of the incident which I'll post in a few days. A computer tech came out to the house this morning and said the video was too big to upload to the internet, so they took it back to their office to edit it. I'll post again when it is up. We will sail Princess again but if some say "no way" I understand too. Cheers:)

[c_galle]

The ship reported a roll, greater than normal while executing a turn. That happens. Weather conditions, current, fetch, etc happen. Purely conditions you don't control. Add mechanical conditions, stabilizers, engines, rudder. You can't help mitigate that, but still don't control. Human Error. You take a Captain that has almost 40 years of ship experience. Actually driving and commanding the ship. Not having breakfest on the f'ocsle or snorkling in ports. You have a billion dollar company that puts faith in the Captain of a ship worth almost half a billion dollars and the lives of several thousand people. They don't pick people off the street to be Captains.

 

The Captain is always responsible for the ship. Even if he is sleeping or off the bridge. Always.

 

Turn Radius, look it up. This is a set rudder order that will turn the ship at cruising speed. It will turn the ship 180 degrees in a certain distance. Certain distance? Now look up transfer, or Williamson Turn. It is asine to state that 180 degrees is a sharp turn. The definition of "Sharp Turn" is the amount of rudder used to execute. Remember you can turn 180 degrees at .00001 or 5 on the rudder. A ship will list or lean into any turn, it is natural. (Think of the banking on a racetrack or cloverleaf of interstate)

 

My opinion, while executing a standard turn, something abnormal happend. Not Human error, but something non-standard. It could be one of a hundred things, I won't go into it because we don't know. While a list of 18 degrees sounds severe, it really isn't. It is something if the people are not aware of it. A 18 degree list while executing a turn in a Navy ship isn't a big deal, in the a cruise ship it is. But this is because so many people expect the ship to always be nearly flat. While 18 degrees has been reported, look at the people reporting it. I have stood on the bridge and it is almost impossible to guess the list while looking out over both sides of the ship and looking at the indicator. A civilian eating breakfest or in there rooms could not accurately guess the list.

 

While I know many people would suffer bruises, cuts, etc as a result of this, this doesn't mean the Captain did anything wrong. It doesn't mean their lifes were in danger. The Point of No Return is almost 45 degrees and even more while executing a turn.

 

It doesn't matter on experience. The only thing that matters is the facts. The Captian has 40 years experience in the cruise line business. He knows his ship. He can control his crew and his ship, but not other factors. Only the people on the bridge in charge are in a position to report what happend.

[cnmiranda]

The Austin American Statesman did an article on this event. Based upon what I read in that factual article, this was a very serious event. Sounds to me that a number of the responders to the OP are trying to downplay how serious this was. The pool emptied into the buffet area, and cabins were flooded. I don't have the article in front of me, but it was clear that it was an extreme angle that the ship tilted into. Yes, maybe the captain was responding to a medical emergency, but sounds as if this turn could have very well caused many more medical emergencies. A number of passengers and crew were treated for injuries. This captain should be fired.

 

I have no doubt it was a serious event, just read the passenger accounts, we were the ones that were there. I also anticipated new screen names and the like trying to discredit passenger comments. All you have to do is look at a poster's history here (click their name and read their prior posts) you will learn a lot. I don't know who is responsible and I think Princess owes all of us the truth, but I don't know we'll get it.:) Again, I do think this was just a terrible accident and hopefully no one else will have to go through it. I'm sure people will lose their jobs and/or be demoted because of it but I also believe none of it was intentional of course.

[c_galle]

What do you mean Princess owes you the truth? A roll greater than expected. How come what people say is a lie unless you want to believe them, then it is the truth.

 

I agree with you statement about not being intentional. About all I liked from your post. Somewhere along the line as Americans we think we always have to assess blame. It will always be someones fault, someone will always be lying to us.

[cnmiranda]

The ship reported a roll, greater than normal while executing a turn. That happens. Weather conditions, current, fetch, etc happen. Purely conditions you don't control. Add mechanical conditions, stabilizers, engines, rudder. You can't help mitigate that, but still don't control. Human Error. You take a Captain that has almost 40 years of ship experience. Actually driving and commanding the ship. Not having breakfest on the f'ocsle or snorkling in ports. You have a billion dollar company that puts faith in the Captain of a ship worth almost half a billion dollars and the lives of several thousand people. They don't pick people off the street to be Captains.

 

The Captain is always responsible for the ship. Even if he is sleeping or off the bridge. Always.

 

Turn Radius, look it up. This is a set rudder order that will turn the ship at cruising speed. It will turn the ship 180 degrees in a certain distance. Certain distance? Now look up transfer, or Williamson Turn. It is asine to state that 180 degrees is a sharp turn. The definition of "Sharp Turn" is the amount of rudder used to execute. Remember you can turn 180 degrees at .00001 or 5 on the rudder. A ship will list or lean into any turn, it is natural. (Think of the banking on a racetrack or cloverleaf of interstate)

 

My opinion, while executing a standard turn, something abnormal happend. Not Human error, but something non-standard. It could be one of a hundred things, I won't go into it because we don't know. While a list of 18 degrees sounds severe, it really isn't. It is something if the people are not aware of it. A 18 degree list while executing a turn in a Navy ship isn't a big deal, in the a cruise ship it is. But this is because so many people expect the ship to always be nearly flat. While 18 degrees has been reported, look at the people reporting it. I have stood on the bridge and it is almost impossible to guess the list while looking out over both sides of the ship and looking at the indicator. A civilian eating breakfest or in there rooms could not accurately guess the list.

 

While I know many people would suffer bruises, cuts, etc as a result of this, this doesn't mean the Captain did anything wrong. It doesn't mean their lifes were in danger. The Point of No Return is almost 45 degrees and even more while executing a turn.

 

It doesn't matter on experience. The only thing that matters is the facts. The Captian has 40 years experience in the cruise line business. He knows his ship. He can control his crew and his ship, but not other factors. Only the people on the bridge in charge are in a position to report what happend.

 

With all due respect c_galle, if someone was on their balcony on the side of the list they could have easily lost their footing and gone over. Princess was lucky because it was 1)windy and cold outside 2)dark 3)people were just getting settled in the ship and ready for dinner. We were on deck 7 and our next thought during the height of the list and thought our next move would be to crawl over to the other side of the hand rail (off the side of the ship) and hold on. That's how far we were tilted sideways. We have no official comment as to how far the list was nor how much the Grand Princess could have taken.

 

It's easy to say "oh you would not have tipped" but try sitting in the dining room where all the bottles and glass start flying and your view out the window is a tilting ship about to hit the water of your level. We had no warning and add to that the rumors these past weeks that the Grand was having generator or engine problems and you're in for the fright of your life.