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Azamara excursions with a maximum age 70 rule


Cruizer Diana
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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Cruizer Diana said:

I'm curious... can you share a link to the insurance data for swimming, snorkeling? Is there data on deaths involving full-face masks?

To keep this thread on topic about age limits for discussions in general, this interesting topic could be discussed with specialists over here

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/forum/24-scuba-and-snorkeling/

 

Edited by uktog
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1 minute ago, uktog said:

To keep this thread on topic about age limits for discussions in general, this interesting topic could be discussed with specialists over here

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/forum/24-scuba-and-snorkeling/

 

You are correct about discussing the face-mask issue on the snorkeling board.

However, we are discussing the reason for age limits. If the limits on an excursion are based on insurance data, it would be useful to see the data.

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44 minutes ago, Cruizer Diana said:

 

 

I didn’t find a current published list of acceptable or non-acceptable masks. The consensus is that low-cost, low quality masks are very dangerous.

This article (https://snorkelaroundtheworld.com/2018/03/full-face-snorkel-mask-dangerous/) discusses safety concerns and what to look for in selecting a mask. It primarily says to stick with a high-quality (not cheap) mask. Some of the better brands are mentioned. Those brands publish safety testing results.

 

I suggest you search the internet about the safety of the full-face masks. There is a lot of negative feedback. Perhaps the issue is primarily the large number of deaths from using cheap, defective masks. 

 

Thanks, what I had found when said there wasn’t enough data to determine cause and effect rather than coincidence. They did mention to stay with known brands though.   

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Cruizer Diana said:

You are correct about discussing the face-mask issue on the snorkeling board.

However, we are discussing the reason for age limits. If the limits on an excursion are based on insurance data, it would be useful to see the data.

There are reasons why there are limits.  As we get older we may not like them, but then again we are not calculating rates for insurance that these companies must have to do business with the cruise lines. Also there are some restrictions that pop up depending upon country since legal liability varies.

 

Unfortunately Insurance companies usually do not release data.  I had a discussion with  friend of mine who is an actuary for a company, a couple of years back when I first encountered age limits on an excursion.  

 

There are some other sources of data depending upon sport, for example DAN  annual diving report for scuba diving.

 

There is an interesting report about the risks of snorkeling.  One thing it points out is that one of the highest risks is with people snorkeling in tour groups.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266652042100028X

 

While it does not provide that same data that and insurance company actuary would use, it does discuss an number of issues and risks

 

Here also is a newspaper article from 2016 that indicates the snorkeling is a leading cause of death in tourists in Hawaii

 

https://www.civilbeat.org/2016/01/stand-up-or-die-snorkeling-in-hawaii-is-a-leading-cause-of-tourist-deaths/

State Department of Health data shows that since 2005, more than 128 visitors have drowned snorkeling in Hawaii’s waters, from Kaanapali on Maui to Shark’s Cove on Oahu to Haena Beach Park on Kauai.

Of those, most were men in their 50s and 60s, and more than 40 percent had heart conditions.

Most of the deaths occurred in less than 3 feet of water.

Edited by ldtr
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Cruizer Diana said:

 

 

I didn’t find a current published list of acceptable or non-acceptable masks. The consensus is that low-cost, low quality masks are very dangerous.

This article (https://snorkelaroundtheworld.com/2018/03/full-face-snorkel-mask-dangerous/) discusses safety concerns and what to look for in selecting a mask. It primarily says to stick with a high-quality (not cheap) mask. Some of the better brands are mentioned. Those brands publish safety testing results.

 

I suggest you search the internet about the safety of the full-face masks. There is a lot of negative feedback. Perhaps the issue is primarily the large number of deaths from using cheap, defective masks. 

Yes I know this is off topic, but since there were questions asked.

 

The last time I looked, about two years ago, there were only a couple of brands that actually did thorough safety testing (though that might have changed since concerns have been raised in the media). At that time there were some that said that they did testing, but would not provide exactly what testing that was done.  This includes some very well known brands

 

This is a very good report from Ocean Reef that does a very good job of discussing the potential safety issues, the problems that might exist in some designs, and how they have tested their masks.

 

https://oceanreefgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/10/FULL-FACE-SNORKELING-MASK-safety-official-document-15-oct-2019.pdf

 

As one article mentioned while some companies may do the testing necessary to produce a safe mask, there are a lot more cheap copy cats.  Even with the good ones they can have problems if they do not fit well (the seal between the two zones). 

Edited by ldtr
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On 6/25/2022 at 11:45 AM, Cruizer Diana said:

I would agree that diving is a dangerous activity.

I disagree.  Diving is not inherently dangerous.  What makes it dangerous is poor conditioning, poor judgement, or physical conditions such as heart or lung problems.  After several bad experiences on cruise ship dives, I don't plan to do any more.  In all three cases, young men (not older, experienced divers) behaved in such a way as to endanger themselves and/or others or the reef. On one dive, the dive master told everyone not to go deeper than he did.  One diver swam much deeper and bragged about it all the way back in the boat.  Fortunately, he was not injured.  On another dive, a young man who had not been diving for several years, panicked and dropped his weight belt, which missed my buddy's head by inches. On a third dive, a young man could not control his buoyancy.  The dive master had to lift him off the coral. The danger of cruise ship "shore" excursion dives is not the age of the divers, but rather the inexperience of many who participate.     

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20 minutes ago, islandwoman said:

I disagree.  Diving is not inherently dangerous.  What makes it dangerous is poor conditioning, poor judgement, or physical conditions such as heart or lung problems.  After several bad experiences on cruise ship dives, I don't plan to do any more.  In all three cases, young men (not older, experienced divers) behaved in such a way as to endanger themselves and/or others or the reef. On one dive, the dive master told everyone not to go deeper than he did.  One diver swam much deeper and bragged about it all the way back in the boat.  Fortunately, he was not injured.  On another dive, a young man who had not been diving for several years, panicked and dropped his weight belt, which missed my buddy's head by inches. On a third dive, a young man could not control his buoyancy.  The dive master had to lift him off the coral. The danger of cruise ship "shore" excursion dives is not the age of the divers, but rather the inexperience of many who participate.     


I’m more inclined to believe that inexperience rather than age creates more problems than most any other factors!   I know to get experience you have to practice, but it would seem that most tours don’t provide enough and passengers aren’t listening.

 

Years ago on a white water raft trip with a group, the tour company looked at me oddly because I had a helmet.  After a few errors our raft guide moved me up to the front.  She had figured out that I was experienced in reading whitewater.  While I wasn’t the strongest she could count on me to react appropriately to keep us from flipping the raft. I’m pretty sure they didn’t realize that several rafts had mostly drunks in them, too.   The reason for the helmet? I normally soloed a canoe so like kayakers we all wore helmets!  
 

There has to be a good middle ground, I think you may be right that joining an experienced group or one with several instructors may be safer than a ship tour!  Certainly the power to remove the unsafe from the group is a must!  
 

Btw, don’t look for me on any dive, even a training one!  

 

 

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