The square peg & the round hole

[fridayeyes]

I'll raise a glass to that!

 

Happy Valentine's Day, All!

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[wander]

I agree with you 100% that a simple "No they don't" would have been the most appropriate initial response. That would have been most useful.

 

I also do recognize that sometimes folks are "stuck" with a certain cruise or cruise line that would not be their choice. However, I do believe that many of us have had to go places and or spend time with folks that would not be our preference for family or work or church or .... purposes. However, when in such situations I know that I for one DO NOT try to change the place or other folks to meet my preferences, but rather play by their rules and have the most fun possible under the circumstances. This is usually most successful for me. I would do the same on a cruise ship.

 

Regarding cost forcing these folks to select a HAL cruise, I don't buy that under the circumstances. The majority of the HAL critics and complainers on this board are usually dwelling on it being too stuffy, too formal, too many old people, etc.. NOW, I KNOW as well as you probably do, that there are other a number of lines that are less formal, less stuffy, less maybe less snobish and a younger more active crowd that might better meet their needs. AND they are ALL less expensive on the average than HAL.

 

I have cruised on about a dozen cruiselines covering a wide range of the cost spectrum, passenger demographics and accomodations. I have loved every cruise. While HAL and a few others best meet my priorities, I would in no way expect, or want, another line to adapt to my preferences. Obviously others feel differently.

[RevNeal]

If I was not a seasoned cruiser, this board would have scared the hell out of me, to the point I would have cancelled my cruise with HAL,

 

I must be too close to the board to be able to have a clear perspective on this subject. And, since I am so close to this board, I would like to know why this board would have scared you, or anybody else, to the point of causing them to cancel their cruise? I am not asking to cause an argument or disagreement or to hurt feelings. In all humility, I would really like to know. Thanks in advance.

[ekerr19]

I couldn't agree more! Just because you have been monitoring a board forever, and seem the same question posed 100 times, you don't have the right to disrespect a new poster!!!

 

It works TWO ways Joe... I must have missed the posts where a veteran HAL cruiser was disrepectful to a newcomers question... those incidents may be few and far between - I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, the people here try to be MORE than helpful to newcomers - repeatedly answering the same questions over & over again. :)

 

Being called a snob repeatedly merely for expressing a particular point of view or opinion, isn't constructive or helpful. Many folks disagree, especially regarding the dress code - Rita (aka kryos) for example - but yet when she disagrees, she manages to make a thoughtful & concise argument, without being rude and/or insulting.

 

When someone comes along and continues to post in a manner they know is rude and offensive to many - then claiming they "just asked the question, what's the big deal???" Oh, well "if we don't like it, tough cookies they're going to do what they want anyway" - well, it's not going to really earn them any friends or respect on this board, which is after all about sharing mutual experience, knowledge & information.

 

Personally, I have never witnessed a regular poster berate (as in "here we go again"..) a newcomer. Perhaps, I've seen a comment along those lines relating to a topic, but never attacking a person. Unfortunately the same can't be said about some of the newcomers... :( Not many - but a few and I think they very well know who they are.

 

Speaking only for myself, it usually doesn't take me too long before I get a fairly good idea whether someone is merely wishing to "stir things up" so to speak - or if they are serious. I can go back and look at their posts on other boards and threads and have a very good idea whether or not they are being sincere. Even then I like to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

So, basically it's ok for many of newcomers to refer to some of the regulars as snobs as the like, but then they turn around expect to be treated seriously & respectfully? Hmph. I do learn something new everyday. :)

[kingclick]

You go, Watchdiva!! I couldn't agree more! Just because you have been monitoring a board forever, and seem the same question posed 100 times, you don't have the right to disrespect a new poster!!!

Um. But being a new poster gives one the right to call people elitist and snobs? I don't comprehend that logic at all? :confused:

[fridayeyes]

RevNeal,

 

Unfortunately, I would have to agree with the poster(s) who have said that the tone of the HAL boards here made them approach their upcoming cruise with trepidation, or even consider cancelling. I certainly felt that way when I booked my first HAL cruise and read these boards. If you are truly interested, I would be happy to share my views on this at greater length, but not here where if I happened to use someone's post as a rhetorical example it might seem like an attack against that poster. May I have your permission to contact you privately by email?

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[RevNeal]

Unfortunately, I would have to agree with the poster(s) who have said that the tone of the HAL boards here made them approach their upcoming cruise with trepidation, or even consider cancelling. I certainly felt that way when I booked my first HAL cruise and read these boards. If you are truly interested, I would be happy to share my views on this at greater length, but not here where if I happened to use someone's post as a rhetorical example it might seem like an attack against that poster. May I have your permission to contact you privately by email?

 

Of course, Friday ... I asked and I truly am interested in all views, opinions, and experiences on this subject.

 

revneal@aol.com

[fridayeyes]

Thank you. It may take me a day or two due to work deadlines, but I will email you shortly.

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[Bramcruiser]

The majority of these warring threads start with a relative newcomer to HAL asking a simple question. Instead of a simple answer they end up getting lectured and, quite naturally, feel the need to defend themselves from the percieved "attack".

 

I think that if the tone of the responses had remained civil the thread would not have degenerated the way it did.Just my $0.02.

 

Its like that on any message thread. Almost always someone's comment is mis-construed and suddenly flaming begins. I've been attacked on a few occassions for what I thought was harmless comments. It is extremely hard to convey emotions and words in email because any of the personal touches - like facial expressions and hand movement - are missing.

 

Now for my personal opinion :) :

 

To me topless bathing is a personal choice but if HAL doesn't offer it then I wouldn't go ahead and do it either. Personally I don't think it would downgrade civilization and if one thinks its not a good thing then why put it on Carnival where families are around? Many Europeans do it all the time and I often think North Americans have a huge lot to learn about live and let live from other societies. However, saying that I too must say I would not be comfortable with it on my cruise but I wouldn't go as far as to say its MY cruise either. Its THEIR cruise as well. We just happen to choose a setting where its not done and everyone should just learn to live with that on both sides of the coin. In other words go where it is offered. Still come to HAL if you want to come and enjoy the other things it has to offer though.

 

But hey, in your own stateroom.......................................

 

 

Class is not just what you do but HOW you do it!:D

[Bramcruiser]

I must be too close to the board to be able to have a clear perspective on this subject. And, since I am so close to this board, I would like to know why this board would have scared you, or anybody else, to the point of causing them to cancel their cruise? I am not asking to cause an argument or disagreement or to hurt feelings. In all humility, I would really like to know. Thanks in advance.

 

 

Actually it scared me as that other poster first wrote. In some ways its the vocal opinionated few that spoil it for all the others - just like everything out there in life. Remeber that saying of there's one in every crowd?

 

When one arrives, the fact that a small group of vigorous attacks on someone for voicing an opinion comes across as not welcoming. Now again I will never go as far as to say the whole board is that way but a newcomer is in no way aware of the difference. I've been on many boards before knowing this is how it works so I was prepared to sit out the minor irritations until I got the feel for who was who and what was the general feel. Not everyone is so patient. Some boards - not Cruise Critic - end up being nothing more than a small group of close knit people who self congratulate themselves and look on newcomers suspiciously.

 

There are great people and good conversations on all the message boards here - from Carnival to Cunard. Newcomers are certainly welcomed and so they just have to tread the waters until the are comfortable. To any newcomers I just say ignore the attacks.

[RevNeal]

Bramcruiser,

 

Thank you for sharing your point of view and take on the subject. I think I understand what you're saying, but I still don't see why someone would cancel a cruise simply based upon what how they're treated by a caustic group on this board. Perhaps it's my general attitude toward life functioning here in my inability to understand such a response?

 

I mean, just because posters are jerks ... that, in and of itself, shouldn't be a valid rationale for canceling a cruise. IF, however, the jerks -- and non-jerks -- make point after point after point which paints a picture demonstrating that my preferences are not in accordance with the the product the Line offers ... THEN I might think about canceling. Either that, or it will be up to me to reconcile myself to the product, and not try to twist the product into something it is not or pretend it's not what it is.

 

Again, thank you for your thoughts.

[Bramcruiser]

Bramcruiser,

 

Thank you for sharing your point of view and take on the subject. I think I understand what you're saying, but I still don't see why someone would cancel a cruise simply based upon what how they're treated by a caustic group on this board.

 

Actually I agree with you on that one. Cancelling a cruise seems drastic in my view. I guess I really was referring to people who felt like leaving these message boards based on what they see on these things. I jumped the gun in answering for that other person based on my experiences in the past. I now understand I gave some valid points for all to think about but it really never answered the original question. OOPS!

[RevNeal]

I guess I really was referring to people who felt like leaving these message boards based on what they see on these things.

 

Over the years I've been butchered on this board for many reasons. I've been raked over the coals for having an avatar of myself, for having a signature, for being a Christian pastor, for wearing clerics on formal nights, for having a sense of humor, for having an opinion, for posing as a "child hater," for coming to the defense of other posters, for not beating up on certain people that others have thought I needed to beat on, for daring to be on "speaking terms" with people from multiple sides of any given issue ... these are just a few of the reasons why I have been everything but bludgeoned to death by certain people on this board. At one point I quit posting for quite a while simply because I was being treated like crap. However, I eventually determined that it wasn't worth getting all bent out of shape over how I'm responded to here. If someone doesn't like me, that's THEIR loss. Chatting about cruising BETWEEN cruises, and sharing the joy with my fellow board people, is just too much fun to let others run me off.

[stanford's girl]

Wow, where to begin??

First, let me say that I am new to HAL having taken my first cruise with them this past Oct. I have cruised with other lines and and chose HAL because of the traditional experience they offer. I didn't choose because of price or itinerary because there were a lot of lines that were cheaper and going the same place.

Second, I can now understand what the veteran HAL posters are trying to protect and don't want changed. I don't feel that they should be called snobs or intolerant because of it.

 

Third, I wouldn't go to Denny's and expect to get Morton's Steakhouse or vice versa. When you chose a certain experience, expect it to be what they say it is.

Fourth, do not judge an entire cruiseline by the people who post on any board, myself included. Do some research and decide for yourself if the line you choose is what you are looking for.

Fifth, to all the newbies to the board. Do not ever be afraid to ask a question. You will find a lot of good information here. And to all of you who have been on these boards for a while, before you answer a question, please remember that you were once a newbie yourself.

And to all of you who have your first HAL cruise booked, I hope you have a wonderful time.:)

[csg99]

It works TWO ways Joe... I must have missed the posts where a veteran HAL cruiser was disrepectful to a newcomers question... those incidents may be few and far between - I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, the people here try to be MORE than helpful to newcomers - repeatedly answering the same questions over & over again. :)

 

Being called a snob repeatedly merely for expressing a particular point of view or opinion, isn't constructive or helpful. Many folks disagree, especially regarding the dress code - Rita (aka kryos) for example - but yet when she disagrees, she manages to make a thoughtful & concise argument, without being rude and/or insulting.

 

When someone comes along and continues to post in a manner they know is rude and offensive to many - then claiming they "just asked the question, what's the big deal???" Oh, well "if we don't like it, tough cookies they're going to do what they want anyway" - well, it's not going to really earn them any friends or respect on this board, which is after all about sharing mutual experience, knowledge & information.

 

Personally, I have never witnessed a regular poster berate (as in "here we go again"..) a newcomer. Perhaps, I've seen a comment along those lines relating to a topic, but never attacking a person. Unfortunately the same can't be said about some of the newcomers... :( Not many - but a few and I think they very well know who they are.

 

Speaking only for myself, it usually doesn't take me too long before I get a fairly good idea whether someone is merely wishing to "stir things up" so to speak - or if they are serious. I can go back and look at their posts on other boards and threads and have a very good idea whether or not they are being sincere. Even then I like to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

So, basically it's ok for many of newcomers to refer to some of the regulars as snobs as the like, but then they turn around expect to be treated seriously & respectfully? Hmph. I do learn something new everyday. :)

 

your eloquence says it all...thank you

[flashdog_1]

I am a newbie to HAL, only having cruised with Celebrity. I knew that if I could not get an itinerary/date of my liking with X I could find a similar product on HAL and that is exactly why I am trying her out in March. I hope to be wowed and do more cruising on HAL. The prices are a bit higher on HAL and that is a factor in keeping me away.

 

After I made my booking, it was an immediate relief to come to these HAL threads after hearing worse flaming on the Celebrity board.

 

People here seemed to be patient, polite, and able to hold their tongues and not lash out at "silly questions" etc. Not only that, but for the most part the posters seem better able to express exactly what they mean (no ambiguity, just straight forward) without beating around the bush, to offer conflicting views with polite apology rather than a "put down" attitude. I look forward to meeting any of you refined, cultured, dignified, educated, tolerant HAL cruisers if our paths should cross as we share our mutual love of seeing the world.

[csg99]

I am a newbie to HAL, only having cruised with Celebrity. I knew that if I could not get an itinerary/date of my liking with X I could find a similar product on HAL and that is exactly why I am trying her out in March. I hope to be wowed and do more cruising on HAL. The prices are a bit higher on HAL and that is a factor in keeping me away.

 

After I made my booking, it was an immediate relief to come to these HAL threads after hearing worse flaming on the Celebrity board.

 

People here seemed to be patient, polite, and able to hold their tongues and not lash out at "silly questions" etc. Not only that, but for the most part the posters seem better able to express exactly what they mean (no ambiguity, just straight forward) without beating around the bush, to offer conflicting views with polite apology rather than a "put down" attitude. I look forward to meeting any of you refined, cultured, dignified, educated, tolerant HAL cruisers if our paths should cross as we share our mutual love of seeing the world.

 

Thank you! I sincerely hope we get to cruise together someday! :D

[ekerr19]

After I made my booking, it was an immediate relief to come to these HAL threads after hearing worse flaming on the Celebrity board.

 

 

flashdog1 - I was briefly booked on a Med crusie on Galaxy this summer - I tried the boards over there and was amazed!

 

People on the HAL boards think things are harsh???? They need to go hang out on Celebrity during the "dresscode" debate - the insults abound, lol!!! I felt mentally and emotionally drained just reading some of the threads!

 

Welcome to the HAL boards. :)

[ekerr19]

Over the years I've been butchered on this board for many reasons. I've been raked over the coals for having an avatar of myself, for having a signature, for being a Christian pastor, for wearing clerics on formal nights, for having a sense of humor, for having an opinion, for posing as a "child hater," for coming to the defense of other posters, for not beating up on certain people that others have thought I needed to beat on, for daring to be on "speaking terms" with people from multiple sides of any given issue ...

 

You certainly have haven't you? I've witnessed much of it. I am constantly amazed by your remarkable ability to remain calm and post thoughtful, insightful responses to these unwarranted (imo) attacks. :)

 

One week from today we will be aboard the gorgeous Noordam IV. :D

[ekerr19]

your eloquence says it all...thank you

 

csg99 - Thanks - I've enjoyed reading your posts too. :)

[babyher]

I am going to play Devils advocate here :)

 

But I do have to say that everyone here has a very valid point and I undertsand everyones feelings .

 

As of yet my wife and I have not cruised HAL.

 

I certainly understand and respect the veteran HAL cruisers wanting to keep HAL the cruise line they have come to know and love all these years. They chose this line because it provided them with the service and ambiance they desired. You become so close to something you do feel that it is your own. That is true on any cruise line, as well as anywhere else in life.

 

I also sympathize with someone who may be new to cruising or HAL or both, who comes here for info, asks a very innocent question and then gets a bombarded. Not saying it happend on this thread , In fact a side note to EKERR19 ( I did not find your reply to this OP or any of your posts "snobby" in any way )

 

I am not talking about "The Trolls" who delberately start a hot button topic , then never post again just to start a riot on here. But an honest and innocent question asked by a newbie.

 

Yes there have been some nasty posts. The OP asks very simply "Does my 13 yr old need a jacket for formal night?" Its very unnecessary to inquire if he plans to wear a NASCAR shirt and jeans to his prom or first job interview.

 

But for a Newbie, even the nicely written and helpful posts can be confusing. Someone asks a question about the dress code. One poster will cut and paste the actual HAL dress code and it says such and such. The next poster will write they were just on " such and such DAM" last week and 95% of the PAX were in tuxes and gowns on formal night. Then the third poster will write I was on the "Other Dam " :) last week and most men wore suits or sport jackets and the women wore nice tops and black pants. The next poster will say they wre on "yet another DAM" :) and people wore jeans in the dining room and no one turned them away. So you wonder why people are confused and ask these questions? And this is not only here on the HAL board. Look at some of the other boards.

 

In my brief experience here, I certainly have found that the snide and nasty comments are indeed far and few between. Most people here are very kind, helpful and generous with their info and advice. They provide a wealth of info with their reviews of their cruises and some beautiful pictures. Heck we even have a good laugh now and then *LOL*

 

I guess sometimes the rare nasty remark made by a "STINKER" (Is that a better word than "SNOB" EKERR19? *LOL* just teaseing) kind of hurts and leaves a more lasting impression and that is unfair.

 

A special aside to HERB:

 

From reading many of your posts, you sound like an awfully nice guy:) A friendly man with a great sense of humor. I think you and your wife will have a great time on HAL. You have mentioned in one of your posts you are a Maitre'D and working with the public you have met all kinds. (22 years working with the public myself. I have been there ,done that) It will be exactly that on a HAL cruise just like anywhere else. once aboard you will meet a lot of nice people and have a great time with. Sure you will meet a few "STINKERS" *LOL* In fact as a devout self proclaimed people watcher, those are the type that sometimes provide the most amusement. *LOL* From a distance of course :)

 

I think you and DW will meet a lot of nice people to enjoy. So GO, have a blast, come back and write a looooooong review and post a lot of pics ( we love that stuff here *LOL*)

 

To paraphrase Emeril Lagasse

 

"We're not building rocketships here, we're taking a cruise HAVE FUN!!!!!*

[RevNeal]

But for a Newbie, even the nicely written and helpful posts can be confusing. Someone asks a question about the dress code. One poster will cut and paste the actual HAL dress code and it says such and such. The next poster will write they were just on " such and such DAM" last week and 95% of the PAX were in tuxes and gowns on formal night. Then the third poster will write I was on the "Other Dam " last week and most men wore suits or sport jackets and the women wore nice tops and black pants. The next poster will say they wre on "yet another DAM" and people wore jeans in the dining room and no one turned them away. So you wonder why people are confused and ask these questions? And this is not only here on the HAL board. Look at some of the other boards.

 

Thank you, babyher. The above PRECISELY describes the kinds of responses that these kinds of questions receive. And how ELSE are people going to respond to such questions? Are we supposed to coordinate our answers together off the board to ensure that we don't send mixed messages? Should we have a designated responder on each topic and everyone else keep silent about their anecdotal experiences? I truly cannot see any other way to do it than how you've described it above. If people are going to ask these kinds of questions, they're going to get multiple kinds of ... yes, confusing ... answers. For my own approach, I try to post the Line's Dress Code, along with a few remarks of my own. That seems, on my part, to be the most objective way to approach such a question. There ARE other ways, of course, and we've seen many of them here on this board. For instance, anecdotal experiences of how things were on any specific cruise will provide a real-life viewpoint of what actually happened on a specific cruise. However, such experiences will ALWAYS be a little bit misleading. I mean, even though it may be true that most people abide by the dress code, there is no guarantee that on the questioner's cruise 95% of the people will be dressed in accordance to the code; NOR is there any guarantee that NoNoNanette's friend's observations will be at-all reflected on NoNoNanette own cruise ... or any other person's cruise, for that matter.

 

In short, I'm not sure there is any other way to respond to these kinds of questions than for people to offer their own opinions and experiences. And, frankly, that's what these boards are all about ... sharing from different points of view. Does this mean that there's going to be some degree of confusion? Probably. But, I think that most people are adult-enough to understand that "you milage" will always vary.

[sail7seas]

Don't any of us 'regulars' offer any useful, helpful information? Are we never helpful in any way?

 

Seriously, while we each have different personalities and some of us are more 'out there' than others and we each have our individual opinions (thankfully) .........have we never written anything that taught you something you did not know? Did we never quiet an anxiety you had? Did we say nothing to make your aniticpation more fun? Did we never welcome any of you here to CC?

 

[ekerr19]

In fact a side note to EKERR19 ( I did not find your reply to this OP or any of your posts "snobby" in any way )

 

babyher - Thank you for such a nice comment. I've sort been away from posting for awhile (been super busy at work among other things- )

 

I think I should probably clarify here - none of the comments I saw were directed at me specifically. Had they been, oh well - like Revneal (though not as often!) I've been on the receiving end of some harsh criticism for posting my opinions and point of view.

 

I have a tendency to write (therefore post) somewhat formally, I do technical writings in my job. I think many times this is read as "snob" but that's ok with me. Sometimes when I go back and read my own posts, I realized I could have worded my sentiment quite a bit better.

 

The thing that annoyed me the most was the liberal use of snob and elitist by a couple posters (it's happened on these boards before - more than once) and that no one was really addressing it - I think most were hoping the posters would just go away. When this didn't happen after a week or two - and the sniping continued I became further annoyed. When I saw an old dresscode thread resurrected from the bowels of the Cruise Crtitic archives - I knew it wasn't going to end. That is what prompted me to post.

 

I am hoping this thread makes its way to page two and everyone can focus on something else. :)

 

I wanted to address your post and say thanks and let you know I've enjoyed your input here and I think you will enjoy your first HAL cruise immensely.

 

I love your quote by Emeril (he is one of my favorite TV personnas).

 

OK - Now let's CRUISE !!!!!

[jhannah]

I think what we all must remember is that each of us has our own ideas and opinions. Some of us have very strong opinions. Some even go beyond that! ;) But they are heart-felt opinions nonetheless. Sometimes we use analogies that are based on past experiences we have had. The "will he wear a NASCAR shirt..." doesn't mean the poster is lashing out at that individual. It's a concept.

 

We're humans (well, most of us are!) ;) Some wear feelings on their sleeve, take comments personally, and react accordingly. Others have more Teflon-coated feelings ... letting things roll off with no hurtfulness. Disagreements and misunderstandings are assured of happening. Each of us must work to take the high road and, in expressing our strong feelings, not let our words carry the notion of an attack on the person who doesn't feel like we do.

 

It's an age-old communications challenge that won't go away.