The square peg & the round hole

[ekerr19]

This is what comes to my mind each time I read a post supporting "go ahead and do it anyway" (well, that and the Burger King commercial - you know the one... "Have it your way")... :)

 

I think it's probably some of the responses on the post about the topless sunbathing deck that is compelling me to respond. Please know I am not criticizing or directing anything at any one poster or group of posters - it's more in reponse to a trend I've noticed on the boards since I found this site - which seems to have become a prevalent attitude by more than a few people.

 

HAL does not have a topless sunbathing deck - for those of you who feel the need to label me and others as prudes, puritanistic, etc. for speaking up in opposition to just "doing it" - perhaps I can try to explain.

 

I see quite a few posters saying, "Oh what the heck, they're just a bunch of prudes" and "do it anyway, if you want to" ... I must comment that I just truly don't understand this attitude. I am basically a "live and let live" type of individual. What you choose to do or not to do is really of little concern to me... that is, until it affects me - and more importantly MY cruise experience.

 

While, the "topless-ness" issue in itself does not bother me, I pretty much do take exception to the encouragement for flaunting of rules, procedures, dress codes (suggested and otherwise), diapers in the pool, smuggling liquor, cavalier attitude towards lifeboat drill - the list could go on and on...

 

I CHOOSE my cruise line (HAL exclusively) because I can count on several certainties which are important to me... for example, I know that on a 10-day cruise there will most likely be 3 formal nights; mostly likely I will encounter people such as myself who have either outgrown or never cared much for the partying mentality found on some cruise ships, that there continues to be a traditional dining experience and a traditional ambiance (how much longer is anyone's guess), and that most people do adhere to the suggested dress of the evening.

 

I honestly believe that some of the more recent changes on HAL are the result of people want to "have it their way", specifically the ability to bring aboard your own liquor - when so many folks started showing up carrying cases of their own booze and insisting on drinking it poolside instead of discreetly packing a bottle or two for consumption in their own cabin, HAL responded by banning liquor brought aboard for consumption. This is just a single example.

 

While it seems HAL is lowering its traditional standards and making changes that may appeal to a broader market base, I can't help but wonder how many of these changes are a direct result of the "do as I choose" mentality.

 

I like HAL the way it is. I don't want to see the dress code eliminated because some people feel it is unnecessary, or dining changed because people want to just come and go as they please...

 

There are so many other cruise options for those that don't want to dress for dinner, those who like the freedom of eating whenever they wish, for those who enjoy the party without end, for those that want to sunbathe topless... why must so many people continue to try and force the square peg into a round hole and get HAL (and those of us who LIKE it just fine the way it is) to change????

 

Why not just choose something more in keeping with your own personal preferences?

 

I just truly don't get it. :confused:

[RuthC]

Laura, I understand perfectly what you are saying, and agree with you totally. I, too, will never understand those you don't accept that they are part of a greater whole. Nor will I understand those who then come on and post "permission" for them to do as they choose---as if anyone on this board has the right to give permission to those who want to flaunt someone (HAL's) else's rules.

However, I also do not believe that people are like to change their minds about what is/is not acceptable behaviour. The two camps will remain separate until the pendulum of society swings back.

As it will, someday.

[Debi Girl]

Hip hip hooray! Well said! I think more people think like you but just aren't as articulate as you are - I know I do! Thanks!

[Druke I]

Well put - I agree.

 

There are many cruise lines out there - each different for those with differing tastes.

[jhannah]

You have expressed my sentiments exactly, Laura. Most of us do not wish HAL to begin lowering its standards to the lowest common denominator. We like the Holland America product, and that's why we keep coming back. Others prefer a different ambiance ... and there are plenty of options out there for them. Thank you so much for your thoughtful post.

[lougee1043]

ekerr---ruth

 

hear hear---------------excellent posts --couldnt agree with you more

 

it like going to the theatre to see a live show ---ticket says 8pm and it 8:10 and we are waiting for the latecommers to show up----the heck with everyone who got there on time -- lets treat them with disrespect by not starting on time -- keep 1500 people waiting for 20 ----talk about enabling

[Randyk47]

Well said Laura! And everybody else on this thread so far. I, for one, don't want HAL to become like Carnival or RCI or any other cruise line for that matter. Let HAL be HAL.....classy and refined....at least that's my image of HAL and it keeps me coming back.

[RuthC]

it like going to the theatre to see a live show ---ticket says 8pm and it 8:10 and we are waiting for the latecommers to show up----the heck with everyone who got there on time -- lets treat them with disrespect by not starting on time -- keep 1500 people waiting for 20 ----talk about enabling

That's the exact kind of thing that always drove me nuts in business. There would be a meeting scheduled and some of us would be on time; many weren't. So those who scrambled to re-arrange their schedules were "punished" while those who were less considerate of their co-workers were "rewarded". What kind of message is that to send?

The principle is the same as the topic of this thread.

[bonstersd]

No Hip hip hoorays here....

 

Because people are not pegs and a cruise ship is not a round hole. People have different tastes, different opinions, different likes and dislikes, different desires, and different needs. People book cruises for different reasons, including ports and price, not just for the dress code, dinning experience, or topless sunbathing. There are usually well over 1,500 passengers on a cruise ship and because they are on a Holland America cruise ship, you expect them all to conform to the same likes and dislikes? Cruise ship passengers don't come from the same town or part of the country; they come from all parts of the world where beliefs, traditions, and standards are different.

 

The fact of the matter is that no matter how much you flame people on these boards, people will continue to enjoy their cruise the way they like. I know I will. I am positive someone will interpret this post as someone who is defying the dress code or looking for a topless deck or whatever does not fall into your category of acceptable behavior on a Holland American cruise...but that is not the case. This is someone saying that people are different and whether you like it or not, they may be on "your" cruise. Perhaps some tolerance for those who choose different life styles or beliefs should be "preached" here instead of intolerance.

[herb]

While it seems HAL is lowering its traditional standards and making changes that may appeal to a broader market base, I can't help but wonder how many of these changes are a direct result of the "do as I choose" mentality.

 

I think the whole notion of relaxing on vacation and not wanting such stringent rules has been around for quite some time on cruises, but it's taken longer to be noticed on HAL because all the people who used to cruise on party boats 20 years ago are now ready for peace and quiet. ;)

 

I do remember on our last Carnival Cruise there were kids and teens running around and screaming and my wife and I looked at each other and both agreed "ok, we're now ready for Holland America" :D

It wasn't because of the 2 formal nites and one sem-formal night, that's for sure (although we will abide by the rules).

[Krazy Kruizers]

ekerr19

I agree with you 150%!!!!

I read that thread but never bothered to answer it. But - boy was I thinking some things!!

[jhannah]

It has nothing to do with intolerance. Laura even mentioned that she was a live and let live person. It has to do with respect for the "society" you are in.

 

There are thousands of societies on this planet. None of them are "better" or "worse" than another. They're just different. (Some VERY different.) What is considered acceptable in one societal setting will be considered boorish in another. When you place yourself in any setting, you are expected under the rules of common decency and respect to conform to the norms that exist there. The "when in Rome" concept. That's all.

[bonstersd]

And a cruise ship is not a society...

[jhannah]

I very much beg to differ.

[sail7seas]

...I went one step further, KK. I haven't opened that thread and have no intention of reading it. I was sure it was not something I wanted to spend any time or energy on. :)

 

 

Add me to the list of........why do people want to change an existing product into something different? If they don't like what it is, why not go to the product that suits you better? Why do some think that a large majority has to change because a small minority isn't satisfied with the product the way it has suited many of us for a very long time.

 

If you want topless decks, go to a ship that offers that.

 

If you want a rock wall to climb, they are out there.

 

If you want personal choice dining, it's available.

 

What can be good about trying to make every cruiseline offer everthing that every other one offers?

 

To my mind, that is taking away choices; not increasing them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

And a cruise ship is not a society...

 

IMO....Yes, for the time period we are aboard, it is a society.

[ryansmemom]

Well said, Laura!:)

 

I am also a live and let live person. I really don't care what people do. However, I do get upset when they impact my life and what they do has a negative impact on my life.

 

 

I have been burned at the stake many times for suggesting the same things. I do not understand why people seem to feel it is acceptable to call people judgemental when they only want what they have paid for on their cruise and want to see the experience they enjoy preserved.

 

There are many lines out there that will cater to the wants of people who want a more casual experience. I do not understand why people feel that they need to change everything to suit themselves. Many claim they select their cruises because of cost and itinerary, not onboard experience. I say, fine. However, that does not give you the right to challenge the onboard experience of the ship you have booked. It's the old."When in Rome." For some reason, some of these people seem to feel that since they did not choose the ship because of it's traditional ways, they should not be expected to conform to the rules. They have the "It's my vacation" attitude.

 

Part of the problem is the my way people tend to be very vocal. Traditionalists tend to be polite and fear offending others. You know, more traditional. We also cringe when we are called judgemental. What is interesting is, we are being judged!::(

 

These very people who are calling us judgemental, for daring to want our elegant, quiet, traditional cruises are judging us very harshly. They call us names like snob. They say we are stuffy and all sorts of other things. We don't call them names! Just exactly who is being judgemental?:(

 

I for one, get upset when I see HAL move away from the traditional ways. I enjoy my HAL cruises. I enjoy being at sea. I do not want to cruise on a floating resort. I like the S and R class ships. If they become too resort-like, I will have to find another line. That would be a shame, because right now, I feel they give the best value for my money. Chimera and I tried Radisson last summer and we liked it. However, we felt HAL gave us better value and we enjoy our HAL experience. We will not enjoy HAL if it becomes a more casual, party, resort or playground at sea experience.

 

Linda

 

Linda

[herb]

I can't believe that these types of threads show up day after day after day after day! :eek:

 

It seems that everyone here is, or feels they should be, on a first name basis with the captain, has private meetings with the staff in order to discuss their likes and dislikes aboard the ship. It would seem that many of you feel that you are part owners of this cruiseline!

 

From what I've been reading on the HAL forums there is just so much negativity & complaining. I am almost regretting having booked a cruise with HAL, just from reading these posts.

 

Both my wife and I were really looking forward to a low key vacation where we could enjoy the tranquility of the sea without being bombarded with announcements, having to deal with unruly children and guests whose main course for breakfast is a bucket of beer.

 

Instead we're getting the feeling that we'll be boarding a ship where we, as first time HAL cruisers, are "guests" to those privileged few who have been sailing HAL for many years and will be policed and monitored and critiqued by them from morning til evening regarding what we wear, when we wear it, etc, etc. etc.

[K&RCurt]

Laura:

 

For the most part I agree with you.

 

HOWEVER, The OP on the "topless" thread simply asked if there were a topless deck on HAL ships. It wasn't until some posters, instead of just saying no, had to interject their own opinion on topless sunbathing and the "type of people" who would want to engage in such a thing.

 

The majority of these warring threads start with a relative newcomer to HAL asking a simple question. Instead of a simple answer they end up getting lectured and, quite naturally, feel the need to defend themselves from the percieved "attack". ( Some theoretical examples: OP asks "Do I need to wear a tux or suit on formal nights?" answeres range from "yes" to "no" to to "What kind of uncivilized fool would dare not dress according to regulations?" How does he feel about a) The people on the CC HAL forum? b) The people he will encounter on his cruise?)

 

I think that if the tone of the responses had remained civil the thread would not have degenerated the way it did.

 

Just my $0.02.

[NoNoNanette]

Instead we're getting the feeling that we'll be boarding a ship where we, as first time HAL cruisers, are "guests" to those privileged few who have been sailing HAL for many years and will be policed and monitored and critiqued by them from morning til evening regarding what we wear, when we wear it, etc, etc. etc.

 

I was getting that feeling, too, Herb. I began to have regrets about booking until I received emails from Cruise Critic Members who reassured me that this very vocal handful of negative HAL posters are NOT the norm.

 

You guys will have a wonderful time. As will we.:)

[bonstersd]

Herb,

 

I have talked to many people who have traveled on HAL and they loved it and swore I would love it too. I am also astonished at these postings. I also know that the majority of the passengers on any given cruise do not post on these boards and that these posters are the "minorities" instead of the other way around.

 

I believe you and your wife will have a completely enjoyable cruise (although, I must say, I see nothing wrong with a bucket of beer for breakfast--ha!!!)

[sail7seas]

I can't believe that these types of threads show up day after day after day after day! :eek:

 

It seems that everyone here is, or feels they should be, on a first name basis with the captain, has private meetings with the staff in order to discuss their likes and dislikes aboard the ship. It would seem that many of you feel that you are part owners of this cruiseline!

 

From what I've been reading on the HAL forums there is just so much negativity & complaining. I am almost regretting having booked a cruise with HAL, just from reading these posts.

 

Both my wife and I were really looking forward to a low key vacation where we could enjoy the tranquility of the sea without being bombarded with announcements, having to deal with unruly children and guests whose main course for breakfast is a bucket of beer.

 

Instead we're getting the feeling that we'll be boarding a ship where we, as first time HAL cruisers, are "guests" to those privileged few who have been sailing HAL for many years and will be policed and monitored and critiqued by them from morning til evening regarding what we wear, when we wear it, etc, etc. etc.

 

Herb....It really isn't like that at all when aboard.

 

Here on the BB's, some of us are striving to preserve the product that you describe you wish to enjoy.

 

We become 'protective' of the HAL we have loved for many cruises and as we see dramatic changes approaching, we are sad for what we 'perceive' might be measureable changes. In truth, for the most part, HAL has managed to maintain its class and elegance but we fret for how long that will continue.

 

No one is judging anyone....unless their behavior or dress is so outrageous it cannot be ignored.

 

No one really cares what someone else is doing unless it directly impacts their personal space or enjoyment.

 

I think you probably suspect that on a ship of 1,200+ passengers it would be pretty easy to avoid anyone you don't care to be around.

 

The cruise you describe you are seeking is what some of us are expressing we want to continue to be available.

A

nd, yes, sometimes on some ships some people will be on first name basis with the Captain or Hotel Manager or GRM or their dining steward. When you cruise a great many times on HAL ships, you get to know crew people. HAL Officers are often out and about and approachable. That is not the case on all cruiselines. If you go to someone's 'place' time and time again and you see them sometimes 2-3-4 times a year, one year to the next, they become dear friends....same as they would if they are people you like and enjoy who happen to live down the street and round the corner from you. They 'live' for a part of the year on the ships. So, when we go to their ship, we are seeing a friend we have come to care a great deal about.....they just happen to wear a uniform.

 

For some of these people, if they were to call our home at 3 A.M. and tell us they needed help, we would be there for them. If you care about another person, you care about them....it is no different for those we have met on ships and have come (in some cases) to love.

 

[ekerr19]

I really expected to come back to this thread and wish I'd never posted to begin with, but I really felt compelled to say something - I've been feeling it for weeks.

 

The most compelling thing, I have to admit (and Linda touched on it too) was the continued use of the word snob.

 

This group of regular posters are anything but, imo - all of you have welcomed newcomers, provided advice and encouragement, shared your cruises, answered endless questions (no matter how repetitive or seemingly trivial) and have shown more patience than I could imagine doing.

 

I love the fact that even if I'm gone from the boards for a few months, I come back and receive a heartfelt welcome.

 

Thank you all for so much for not only your kind words, but all the help and support and willingness to share.... we all have one very common denominator, the love of cruising and HAL. :)

[gizmo]

I can't believe that these types of threads show up day after day after day after day! :eek:

 

It seems that everyone here is, or feels they should be, on a first name basis with the captain, has private meetings with the staff in order to discuss their likes and dislikes aboard the ship. It would seem that many of you feel that you are part owners of this cruiseline!

 

From what I've been reading on the HAL forums there is just so much negativity & complaining. I am almost regretting having booked a cruise with HAL, just from reading these posts.

 

Both my wife and I were really looking forward to a low key vacation where we could enjoy the tranquility of the sea without being bombarded with announcements, having to deal with unruly children and guests whose main course for breakfast is a bucket of beer.

 

Instead we're getting the feeling that we'll be boarding a ship where we, as first time HAL cruisers, are "guests" to those privileged few who have been sailing HAL for many years and will be policed and monitored and critiqued by them from morning til evening regarding what we wear, when we wear it, etc, etc. etc.

 

Herb,

Not everyone on this board is like this. Yes, there are some that are into "who is who" on the ship. I couldn't tell you who was Captain let alone anyone else on most of my cruises. In 15 cruises I only remember the names of 2 CD's. What is important to some is not important to others.

IMO most pax are like me. I never met anyone on the ship that talked about Captains or officers.

 

Don't regret booking the cruise. You will enjoy it. The only announcement you get bombared with is BINGO. ;) You will not be policed or monitored. For some reason "dress code" is the favorite debate on this board. Other boards have other subjects that are debated to death. It is the nature of forums. I believe your cruise will be everything you hope for.

[ekerr19]

Laura:

 

For the most part I agree with you.

 

HOWEVER, The OP on the "topless" thread simply asked if there were a topless deck on HAL ships. It wasn't until some posters, instead of just saying no, had to interject their own opinion on topless sunbathing and the "type of people" who would want to engage in such a thing.

 

 

Keith - I have no issue with the OP asking the question - after all that's what the boards are for!

 

You hit the nail on the head - the interjection of the personal "should and shouldn't" and name calling.... it's unnecessary, imo - as is the use of the word "snob" that has been thrown about the threads like crazy for the past few weeks.

 

I was beginning to think some folks didn't actually realize that to label someone that way is really quite insulting - especially when you don't know them at all. :)