The square peg & the round hole

[babyher]

Very well said RevNeal :)

 

Everyone has something to bring to the table with their experiences here. Especially when they are relating what actually happened on a given cruise that the poster actually witnessed or experienced themselves.

 

Yes it does get confusing sometimes with all the varying accounts, but thats what makes things interesting sometimes :)

 

Cruiseing itself gets more and more popular every year . More and more people from more and more different backgrounds will be taking their first cruise every year. Some will even join boards like this to get info and advice.

 

Long after this thread is on page 27 of the archives, some one will come on here for the first time and very innocently ask if they have to wear a jacket on informal night, or if they can do this or that. And yes those of us that have survived many a thread like this will be ducking under tables to get out of the line of fire *LOL*

 

But there is always something to be learned here, Everyone has a different experience. Someone with 50 cruises under their belt can always pick up a new piece of info or a tip from someone with one cruise, and most certainly vice versa.

[K&RCurt]

Babyher / Revneal:

 

IMO one of the BEST things about the cc forums is the diversity of opinions. The conflicting answers babyher stated in her previous post are a great example.

 

While they may be confusing they are also true. a sizable percentage of the men on our cruise were wearing either tuxedos or dark suits on formal nights. Some were wearing slacks and sport coats and there were some with jeans & baseball jerseys. No one was asked to leave. And there were several folks who changed into shorts before the evening shows. SO, those who say "most people will be wearing tuxes or suits" are correct. Those who say "You'll be fine with a sport coat and slacks" are also correct as well as are those who say "go ahead and wear your jeans, no one will throw you out of the D.R."

 

As long a people can be civil and aknowledge the validity of each other's responses, people won't be as intimidated with posting a question here. While it is my opinion that people should abide by the requested dress of the cruise line, I also freely aknowledge that, in all likelyhood, if someone shows up in jeans on formal night, they likely wont get turned away.

 

Specifficaly for Rev Neal:

In the past I have been one of those who has criticized you for your "kid bashing" posts. I must admit after reading many of your subsequent posts I can see how they were / are just a product of your sense of humor. This same sense of humor is on display now in the "topless" thread an I think it's quite humorous. I'm truly sorry if I have offended you in the past.

[babyher]

Jim

 

 

Very well said :) A lot of it may go back to the age old problem of how the written word can't always reflect the spirit or the tone of what the poster is saying. I can make a remark to you in person and with a wink and a nudge you know I am teaseing, and we can have a good laugh at it. But you could be reading that same remark and think "Hmmmm that was uncalled for". True we have the smiley faces and winking faces and *LOL* and all that but that might not always be effective if the remark we have just read has upset us or offended us. Deliberately nasty attacks are certainly unwarrented and unnecessary. But most times it is exactly as you put it , a very passionate opinion about something that was either worded not quite right or perceived by the reader differently.

 

 

 

EKERR19

 

You are very welcome :) Us Emeril fans have to stick together *LOL*

My wife and I are still in the "What do you wanna do Marty" stages of planning this years cruise. We would like to try HAL this time, just want to do a 7 or 10 dayer in the Carribean this time out. This cruise wll be more for the ship than the ports as we have covered a lot of ground in the Carib. As I am sure you know there are no HAL ships in the Carribean this summer, so we are just gonna wait and see. But I am sure we will enjoy whatever we chose.

 

Its a cruise ....whats not to enjoy??? *LOL*

 

P.S Have a great time and a safe trip on Noordam (I am soooooo jealous:)) Will you be spending some time pre or post cruise in NYC? What do you have planned? I know some of you Nordammers :) have some nice things and a great dinner planned.

 

Enjoy:)

[hrhdhd]

Many of these posters are snobs, but they don't like being called snobs.

 

I for one don't mind being called a snob--it doesn't have a negative connotation to me. :rolleyes: We all have preferences for the type of people we want to hang around with, go to social functions with, and, yes, vacation with. And usually our preference is for people like us. Find a line that offers activities and guidelines that you enjoy, and you will (mostly) find people that are like you. "What's snobbish" about that?

[JBCall]

Revneal,

 

As a newbie who has not yet been on his first cruise I thought I would pass on my thoughts in regards to your earlier question.

 

My DW and I booked our first cruise a few weeks ago. We had planned to do a mediterranean cruise in 2007, but due to other circumstances we decided to remain closer to home and cruise this year. As a result we booked with the only line that went to where we wanted for the time we had available.

 

Shortly after booking I found this wonderful site and all the information it contained. I then quickly went into information overload with "all of the things I should have know before booking with HA" (dresscode, liquor on board, toplessness;), etc.).

 

I have no problems with abiding by the rules and I am even considering renting a tux to surprise my DW. What has concerned me is the tone of some of the people that have posted. Most of the questions I have seen from newcomers are usually of the nature: Does HA allow this _____? or What are the rules regarding this _____?

 

Before everyone gets out their flamethrowers and starts throwing the "s word" around there is usually some good information given (even if there is some differing opinions). Then someone comes in with a comment like: Why would anyone want to do ___? or If someone wants ___ they should go elsewhere. These are not constructive or helpful comments they are judgemental and can be hurtful (even if they are not meant to be).

 

When I see those types of comments it causes me pause about my upcoming vacation. As others have pointed out we will be a society together for a week or more. I will be interacting in person with people who are content to pass judement on my or others lifestyle/vacation habits/personal appearance. The thought of this does not appeal me. I would not assocaite with people like this in my day to day life so why would I do it on vacation. If they are willing to be rude/inconsiderate on the boards what would they say to my face or behind my back or to my DW???

 

I have realized since my initial overload that once on board I will more than never likely meet a few handful of people I interact with on the boards (my loss because there are a number of people whose posts have led me to believe that I would love to meet). So I am no longer as concerned - altohugh if I had not already booked I may have considered another line.

 

To all: Just realize that there are a lot of people who lurk on the boards trying to decide with who they should book. When they see what be considered rude, defensive or condescending responses from people who have cruised with HA multiple times they may take their business eleswhere. If enough people do that HA will be forced to try and go more inclusive in order to make up the revenue.

 

I apologise for the rambling message but it had to come out.

 

BTW: Revneal, I hope you are recovered. If you are ever in Canada and have a cold my recommendation is Buckleys cough syrup - it always releieves any congestion I have. Otherwise try som Tom Yum soup.

 

Jim.

[babyher]

K&RCurt,

 

Absolutely, all those examples you mentioned are true and you wll see a bit of each on every cruise you go on, HAL or any other line. More on some, less on others, but they will be there.

[fridayeyes]

JBCall - you have hit the nail on the head. Many posters, perhaps especially HAL newbies, tend to think that this board is representative of HAL passengers, and that the treatment they recieve here will be an indicator of what kind of treatment they will recieve on board. If they are flamed here for asking a simple and direct question, such as "Does HAL permit ___?", they believe they will be treated that way on board ship as well. They imagine themselves sitting down to dinner and hearing "HAL isn't for you. Go back to Carnival," and so on. It very definitely creates an unwelcoming environment.

 

Fortunately, I have never seen or heard these more extreme attitudes expressed on board ship. Part of it, I think, is that people say things in text environments that they would never say (though they might think) in face to face environments. Snide remarks are rude and boorish no matter which side they come from. When a new poster is greeted with snide remarks from the get go, however, their return hostility while no less 'right' becomes somewhat understandable.

 

In the topless thread, note that the question was simple and direct, and the very first response contained two insults, namely trolling and "Carnival". Carnival on this board is very often (not always) the whipping boy for whatever behavior people wish to pillory, and is used as code for 'You're not *our* kind of people. Take your low-life, topless, jeans and Nascar shirt wearing self somewhere else.' Not always of course, as some posters are able to point out that Carnival may be a better lifestyle match without implying anything negative about either Carnival or the OP. The second and third responses answered the question but also appeared to cast aspersions on the OP for either asking inthe first place, or for her enjoyment of the activity in question.

 

I guess my point here is that if people answer a question by casting aspersions on the OP (trolling, "why would anyone want to do X?" "Go back to Carnival") etc, then people really shouldn't be surprised that the word 'snob' crops up. It may not be 'right', but neither were the behaviors that preceeded it.

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[dakrewser]

Two issues are being conflated here, namely the difference between written shipboard rules or policies on the one hand, and differing cultural/personal mores on the other.

 

You make a very valid point, but I think we need to view the shipboard environment as a culture unto itself- not North American, European, Asian, etc. Each cruise line - sometimes even each ship - has its own character and style. It's up to the cruiser to make an informed choice of ship and line.

 

Just as you wouldn't book a trip to St. Thomas for a ski vacation, so you wouldn't book a Carnival or RCCL ship for a quiet, restful cruise. Those who prefer a younger, more energetic crowd probably shouldn't book a 14-day or longer cruise.

 

THe problem many people have is that they see themselves as a "typical" HAL passenger and assume the other pax think the way they do. Present company excluded, of course!

[HeatherInFlorida]

Whew! I have to admit I couldn't even wade through all this and what's the point really? It honestly is the same old same old.

 

First, Laura, magnificent post. As most here know, I couldn't agree more. But I didn't even see this thread yesterday and I see so few threads anymore because I just don't bother to come on that often. Or I keep myself from even viewing a thread that looks controversial.

 

Over and over I read how terrible the "regulars" on this board are. Yet people continue to post here, ask questions, come back and thank everyone, go on HAL cruises and come back to post their follow-up thoughts. They're happy here and they say so.

 

Over and over and over again, people come to this board and they love it. It's the most welcoming board on CC in my opinion (of those I've visited). Celebrity's board has a clique who are allowed to post just about anything they want ... they also seem to share a sort of secret code between them that really makes people feel shut out. There are different hosts there who see things differently than our hosts. When things get out of hand here, our hosts step in and shut it down.

 

So I grew tired of being slammed for every opinion I voiced. It's almost like little gnomes come in just to get everyone riled up and then they depart and all is smooth seas for awhile. Then back they come like a virus.

 

I could comment on many posts I saw here. I could try to reason with some who have been so critical of our most valuable contributors to this board. But what's the point? Some people just want to argue and stir the pot and I'm not up to it anymore.

 

But I did want to thank Laura for her post, for having the wherewithall to express her feelings knowing full well what would happen yet she still wrote so eloquently about some very honest questions in her mind. To me that's classy. She didn't hit and run. She has read everyone's responses and responded. So my hat's off to you, Laura. Good for you.:)

[csg99]

 

The second and third responses answered the question but also appeared to cast aspersions on the OP for either asking inthe first place, or for her enjoyment of the activity in question.

 

/quote]

 

Fridayeyes, you're very selective in your judgement. Since you've singled me out, I feel it's appropriate to respond.

I was not casting aspersions. But, had you taken the time to track the OP on other threads, you would have seen that they like to ask provocative questions, and when the answers do not suit them, they do their "fine, I'll do what I want" answer, along with occasional insults or name calling. Several of us had already seen this and were not surprised that it was continuing, and reasonably did not consider it an innocent question.

I have reached out to many new people and tried to honestly and helpfully answer their questions, because I was new here once, too. Your generalized condemnation is pretty self-serving, since you're passing judgement just as you accuse others of doing. Have a mirror handy?

[fridayeyes]

CSG99,

 

I'll stand by what I said. Many, even most, of your posts have been friendly and helpful. Some have been sarcastic and unneccesary. The urge to be sarcastic is an understandable and very human foible. I have frequently felt it myself, and I'm certain I have "slipped" and posted sarcastically when in truth it didn't add anything of value to the discussion. No matter who does it, sarcasm is simply one of the things that's likely to move a discussion in a less than helpful direction. Rather than being 'judgemental' about sarcasm, my point here is only to say that it's one of the things that will increase or even create conflict. It is not my place to say who can or can't be sarcastic, but in the context of pointing out why some people find this board unwelcoming, sarcasm is one of the reasons.

 

HAL does not have a 'topless deck', but niether does it have a policy forbidding topless sunbathing. The idea that one cannot, or should not, sunbathe topless on HAL exists then only in the minds of some - not all, perhaps not even most -pax, and is not necessarily a policy, or even an expectation of HAL's.

 

If you truly did not mean your post to be insulting or demeaning to either the OP, or other lines, or the practice of topless sunbathing, then we can chalk it up to the lack of 'bandwidth' (vocal tone/body language, etc) in text communications. I will also stand by saying that if I had been the OP, I would have found your post negative and unwelcoming.

 

My intent was not to attack you, and for giving that impression, I apologize. My intent was to show why - because someone asked - some newbies (and oldbies) find some of the posts here to be abrasive.

 

(See, Rev - I shoulda emailed it privately. :) )

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[NoNoNanette]

But, had you taken the time to track the OP on other threads, you would have seen that they like to ask provocative questions, and when the answers do not suit them, they do their "fine, I'll do what I want" answer, along with occasional insults or name calling.

 

Had YOU taken the time to "track" my posts, you'll see that I've been on CC for years, and had never been insulting, name calling or controversial. Now, I find myself on the HAL board, and have basically gone into a "defense" mode.

 

Having recently booked our first HAL cruise, I thought that I'd ask a few "provocative questions" :

 

*Topless sunbathing??? Is it permitted?

 

*MUST one not be in casual clothes outside of the dining room on formal night???

 

I then went on to report what my friend had experienced on her recent Volendam cruise, and was basically called a "liar".

 

I have reached out to many new people and tried to honestly and helpfully answer their questions, because I was new here once, too.

 

You'd never know that from your posts on any threads that I've participated in.

 

Your generalized condemnation is pretty self-serving, since you're passing judgement just as you accuse others of doing. Have a mirror handy?

 

Speaking of "condemnation"! Friday, along with the Rev. have been the most pleasant posters on this forum! You'd do good to emulate them. I'd cruise with either in a moment.... as someone said on another thread, I wouldn't even want to have a cup of coffee with you, CSG99

[csg99]

fridayeyes, I know who you really are (your writing style and way of phrasing gives you away) so I know where your slant on me comes from, and that's fine. Your bias (not just regarding me, but against other, good people) was instrumental in me leaving this board for a while, and now I remember why. I only ask others to go back and read my posts and see if I deserve your inferences. Your choice of causes to champion are curious.

[fridayeyes]

I am Friday and only Friday, as I'm sure the Moderators would be able to tell you based on IP tracking.

 

While I would willingly engage in a serious and civil discussion about whether or not I misinterpreted your earlier post, debunking conspiracy theories and combatting ad hominem (ad womanim?) attacks are things I have zero interest in.

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[ryansmemom]

As a people watcher and a student of human behavior, with a little dose of professional interest, I wonder who among us read all of this and take the time to wonder if we are among those who may have hurt someone's feelings? Or, are we perhaps sure that we have not?

 

I think we would all be better served if we asked ourselves if we may have hurt another through this very vague, imperfect meduim of communication. I also think we would be better served if we gave each other the benifit of the doubt, that most of us have good intentions toward one another. Certainly there are those among us who enjoy stirring things up and enjoy the chaos that ensues. However, in my experience, they are not the regulars on this board.

 

Some of us, write formally. Like me, we are nerds and geeks. We have feelings too. Some of us are less articulate. They also have feelings. So let's play nice and stop calling each other names. Let's celebrate our differences. This defensiveness is fear based anyway. And we all know that fear kills love and understanding and just makes us unintentionally mean to one another.

 

I'm willing to bet that we would all like each other if we met in person. I'm talking about the people with good intentions here. One thing we probably have in common is that we most likely would not enjoy the company of the people who enjoy hurting others.

 

Getting off my soap box now.:)

 

Linda

[K&RCurt]

Excellent post Ryansmemom!

[fridayeyes]

Woo hoo on your PhD studies, Ryansmemom. I sometimes cruise HAL when I need to write long papers. People feed me, make my bed and otherwise provide a quite, non-distracting environment for writing. I think people on the Ryndam thought I was a travel writer once since I spent so much time writing on my laptop in the library. :)

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[PRINSENDAM]

 

I then went on to report what my friend had experienced on her recent Volendam cruise, and was basically called a "liar".

 

 

 

 

Hmmmmm... I find that extremely doubtful. 10% in tux? No way! And shorts/cutoffs at all hours? That just don't happen. Alaska cruises can get lax sometimes and sometimes a Caribbean cruise... on the 7 day run but NORMALLY on the 10 day rund things remain father formal.

 

 

 

Nanette,

 

That is what I said. I had no intention of calling anyone a liar. I don't think your friend was lying but I do think she was probably way off in her estimation.

 

Unless someone stands at the door of the dining room and counts off every single passenger that walks into the room and checks off their dress, it is impossible to say that '10%' were wearing tux. But read the rest of the post. It was meant to be informative NOT disrespectful.

 

Stephen

 

.

[HeatherInFlorida]

With the exception of Linda and Stephen, the posts above have turned most venomous and personally insulting. That's not welcome on this board. No matter how long someone has been somewhere else on CC, I always question if they come new to this board and immediately bring up a controversial subject.

 

To feign innocence following that makes no sense to me.

 

With all due respect, if a person posts questions of a controversial nature, they have to expect the ensuing debate. After posting a question that someone knows will receive raised eyebrows (right or wrong), I can't help but wonder at the reaction of "What did I say?".

 

Yes, of course people have a right to enjoy topless or even nude sunbathing. But they have to understand there are those who don't particularly want to participate.

 

There is no one here who does not have a right to their personal view on any subject and all should be respected.

[krewzin]

Hmmmmm... I find that extremely doubtful. 10% in tux? No way! And shorts/cutoffs at all hours? That just don't happen. Alaska cruises can get lax sometimes and sometimes a Caribbean cruise... on the 7 day run but NORMALLY on the 10 day rund things remain father formal.

 

 

 

Nanette,

 

That is what I said. I had no intention of calling anyone a liar. I don't think your friend was lying but I do think she was probably way off in her estimation.

 

 

 

.

 

AHA!

 

Now yer saying that her friend is 'arithmetically challenged' and is obviously a hater of small children and a litterbug!

 

The nerve....

 

:D

[ClothesHorseJoe]

I apologize for using the "S" word. I should have consulted my thesaurus first?:confused: My original frustration came from replies I received in my thread regarding "Informal Night - Are Jackets Really Required". It seems that a simple fashion (of all things!) question turned in to an attack on who I was, whether I could read, what I wear to weddings and funerals, etc. and some behaved as if I was trying to change the HAL "System".

 

It was just a question! :eek:

 

I've seen this happen time and again in only a few short weeks. Someone asks an innocent question and suddenley the "cut-offs in the dining room, daipers in the pool, go-back-to-Carnival-you-hat-wearing-Camero-driving-slob" answers come flying out! (for another example, check the thread about "Oosterdam-shorts in public areas")... Again I apologize for loading my flame thrower with "Snob Juice"...I guess you need a thicker (read: leathery) skin to post in this board!!!:o

[RevNeal]

Dear JBCall,

 

Thank you so much for your input. It gives me more/better insight into the feelings of someone who is new to cruising and/or new to this board. I appreciate your taking the time to post it here.

 

Please, have a blessed and glorious cruise!

[fridayeyes]

ClothesHorse - I think it's a fair question about Informal night. I seem to recall someone in my dining party - not sure now if it was my husband or not - arriving wearing dress pants, a dress shirt, and a tie - and him being told to 'wear a jacket next time'. To me, the tie with no jacket is more formal than jacket with no tie, but rules are rules. :)

 

Cheers,

 

Friday

[kingclick]

Again I apologize for loading my flame thrower with "Snob Juice"

 

ROTFLMAO!! Now that is an image!

[kakalina]

This thread has gotten way too personal. I think we are all out of line by letting ourselves get upset over such trivial matters. Perhaps there is something else we should be doing that is a little more worthy of our time here on the boards.