An Issue with Celebrity’s Plan?

[wrk2cruise]

6 minutes ago, lx200gps said:

 

Have to agree with you on that. In that massive 200+ page thread on this forum, there's this small excerpt from the law, which seems to allow for just that:

 

381.00316 COVID-19 vaccine documentation.—  (1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include  any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or  customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 817 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry  upon, or service from the business' operations in this state.  This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols in accordance with state or federal law to protect public health. 

 

 

I totally support Celebrity validating vaccination status but.

 

1) 95% vaccination is not a CDC requirement to sail.   It's a way to sail without doing test cruises

2) The CSO is not a federal law.   Authority to enforce CDC rules over international travel I'm sure is covered by some federal law.  But I think #1 is the real problem.

 

I think the real solution is to challenge in court that any private business has the right to control access to it's business providing it doesn't discriminate against a protected class.   I believe RCG is already allowing for religious exceptions to being vaccinated, those will be included in the 5% unvaccinated cap.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by wrk2cruise

[quicklabs]

I am so confident that DeSantis' nutty rules can't be enforced.  So confident that I booked an Edge sailing for September.  Can't wait!

 

[Elkins45]

Where is the corporate HQ of Celebrity? If they aren't in FL then they are free to ask you your vaccination status when you check in online. It would be a trivial matter to require uploading proof of vaccination prior to completing a reservation online.

 

Ask the question before the customer ever sets a foot in Florida.

[jrapps]

1 minute ago, Elkins45 said:

Where is the corporate HQ of Celebrity?

It's in Miami

[TheBluWho]

Currently on Travel Agent call. The various cruise lines are working with Governor's office on how the vaccination proof law is a little bit different for cruise lines. Just a little more patience while the statement is finalized.

[Elkins45]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

It's in Miami

Oof...spoils that plan. Wonder where their web servers are?

[TheBluWho]

Also, they are working on ability to have vaccine cards uploaded during online checkin but it will NOT be available for a bit

[keels81]

2 minutes ago, TheBluWho said:

Currently on Travel Agent call. The various cruise lines are working with Governor's office on how the vaccination proof law is a little bit different for cruise lines. Just a little more patience while the statement is finalized.

I really appreciate how transparent she has been on these calls.

Also, for now, you'll need to bring your white CDC vaccination card until the get an upload technology item working.

[Cruising89143]

10 hours ago, Miaminice said:

And the problem is?
Did you ever take time to read the fine print before?
With the exception of changes specific to Covid, like masks etc., this is nothing really new or surprising.

Bingo……

[npb]

 

 

• The Rebound: Tampa Bay

  l News DESANTIS continues to deny CDC has authority 0over cruises

 

 

Photo by: Celebrity Cruises

 

By: Dan Trujillo

Posted at 11:45 AM, May 27, 2021

 

and last updated 12:57 PM, May 27, 2021

MIAMI, Fla. — Governor DeSantis' office has responded to rules set in place by Celebrity Cruises for their first scheduled hucruise out of Florida on June 26.

"The CDC has no legal authority to set any sort of requirements to cruise," the governor's office said. "Moreover, the CDC has acknowledged, on record, that the federal government chose not to make a legal requirement for vaccine passports. Now the CDC provides coercive “guidance,” in the absence of any federal law or congressional authorization, requiring cruise ships to violate state law."DeSantis said the cruise line violate the spirit of the Governor’s Emergency Order 21-81, which prohibits vaccine passports and protects the fundamental rights of Floridians – including the right to medical privacy. The governor also says the policy would be a violation of Florida’s recently enacted law banning vaccine passports, SB 2006, effective July 1 "Companies doing business in Florida, including Celebrity Cruises, should immediately cease to impose such discriminatory policies upon individuals. Companies that violate this law would be subject to a fine of $5,000 each time they require a customer to present a 'vaccine passport' for service," DeSantis said.

 

His office ended the statement by saying "we look forward to seeing Celebrity Cruises set sail in compliance with Florida law."

Edited May 27, 2021 by npb

[nyc12345]

2 hours ago, JamieLogical said:

My husband's plan is to not ask anyone for proof of vaccination until the ship is in international waters and then kick all the unvaccinated passengers off the ship....

 

As in throwing them overboard?  😃

[nyc12345]

1 hour ago, Crazy planning mom said:

Cruising us set to begin in Bayonne in August.

 

Where did you get this information from?  I guess my July cruise is out the window...

[bajathree]

Celebrity is still sticking with once you board the ship you are in international waters. They are very confident like mentioned above that this is being worked on as we are speaking and that Gov DeSantis will be releasing verbiage how the new FL law not allowing businesses in the state of FL to ask for prof of vaccines will not apply to cruise ships.  

Edited May 27, 2021 by bajathree

[wrk2cruise]

26 minutes ago, TheBluWho said:

Also, they are working on ability to have vaccine cards uploaded during online checkin but it will NOT be available for a bit

 

Their IT department needs to hire some teenagers.   They could get it done on the app in a day.

 

[C-Dragons]

2 hours ago, Crazy planning mom said:

Cruising us set to begin in Bayonne in August.

August of 2022 according to the X website.

[Ken the cruiser]

I like this article better where "Christina Pushaw, DeSantis' press secretary, says Celebrity's COVID-19 vaccine mandate "violates the spirit" of the executive order and contravenes the state's ban on vaccine passports."

 

The first CDC-approved fully vaccinated cruise will sail June 26 from Florida, but the state says it could violate the state's ban on vaccine passports (msn.com)

 

When I saw this "violates the spirit" phrase, it gave me a positive feeling that the cruise line lawyers have been hard at work to resolve this issue in their favor. But, as with everything else these days, time will tell. 😎

[Donny-Joe]

Here's the entire text of the Florida law referring to business restrictions on "vaccine passports":

 

(1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business operations in this state. This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.

 

There's nothing about not being allowed to ask about vaccination status. They aren't allowed to ask for documentation. They can certainly ask whether guests are vaccinated, and even say they won't let you on if you're not. They could refuse to let you on unless you state clearly and unequivocally that you are vaccinated, or answer a clear "yes" to a direct question about your vaccination status. They could even warn you of potential consequences if they learn that you lied about your vaccination status. This law just says a business can't make a customer show them a CDC card or other documentation.

 

I would also note that health care providers are exempt from this provision:

 

(5) This section does not apply to a health care provider as defined in s. 768.38; a service provider licensed or certified under s. 393.17, part III of chapter 401, or part IV of chapter 468; or a provider with an active health care clinic exemption under s. 400.9935. 

 

Conceivably the cruise lines could have the onboard health care provider (who works for a contracted medical company, not directly for the cruise line) ask for vaccination documentation. Then the cruise line could say they won't carry passengers who are not acceptable to their health care provider. That would be a clear end run on the spirit of the law, but it seems to meet the letter of the law.

 

I can think of multiple other subterfuges that would meet the requirements of the Florida law, such as contracting with a company outside Florida to provide "health screening" services, which just runs an online site where you answer a health questionnaire and upload your vaccine documentation, and they report a "recommendation" to Celebrity without saying why they recommend for or against.

 

Honestly, I don't think any subterfuge is needed. Cruise lines can just tell guests at booking time that all passengers are required to be vaccinated, and ask them at checkin whether they're vaccinated. Most people will tell the truth. If people ignore the requirements and lie at checkin, well, that's on them. The ones who would lie are exactly the kind of people who would get a fake CDC card, so requiring documentation really doesn't do much.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Donny-Joe

[JsMom2]

1 hour ago, Elkins45 said:

Where is the corporate HQ of Celebrity? If they aren't in FL then they are free to ask you your vaccination status when you check in online. It would be a trivial matter to require uploading proof of vaccination prior to completing a reservation online.

 

Ask the question before the customer ever sets a foot in Florida.

Hq are in Florida.  But they have a major call center in Kansas.  Maybe they just run the pre cruise screening program from there?  Also an Engagement Center in the Philipines….

[kearney]

25 minutes ago, Donny-Joe said:

Here's the entire text of the Florida law referring to business restrictions on "vaccine passports":

 

(1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business operations in this state. This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols consistent with authoritative or controlling government-issued guidance to protect public health.

 

There's nothing about not being allowed to ask about vaccination status. They aren't allowed to ask for documentation. They can certainly ask whether guests are vaccinated, and even say they won't let you on if you're not. They could refuse to let you on unless you state clearly and unequivocally that you are vaccinated, or answer a clear "yes" to a direct question about your vaccination status. They could even warn you of potential consequences if they learn that you lied about your vaccination status. This law just says a business can't make a customer show them a CDC card or other documentation.

 

I would also note that health care providers are exempt from this provision:

 

(5) This section does not apply to a health care provider as defined in s. 768.38; a service provider licensed or certified under s. 393.17, part III of chapter 401, or part IV of chapter 468; or a provider with an active health care clinic exemption under s. 400.9935. 

 

Conceivably the cruise lines could have the onboard health care provider (who works for a contracted medical company, not directly for the cruise line) ask for vaccination documentation. Then the cruise line could say they won't carry passengers who are not acceptable to their health care provider. That would be a clear end run on the spirit of the law, but it seems to meet the letter of the law.

 

I can think of multiple other subterfuges that would meet the requirements of the Florida law, such as contracting with a company outside Florida to provide "health screening" services, which just runs an online site where you answer a health questionnaire and upload your vaccine documentation, and they report a "recommendation" to Celebrity without saying why they recommend for or against.

 

Honestly, I don't think any subterfuge is needed. Cruise lines can just tell guests at booking time that all passengers are required to be vaccinated, and ask them at checkin whether they're vaccinated. Most people will tell the truth. If people ignore the requirements and lie at checkin, well, that's on them. The ones who would lie are exactly the kind of people who would get a fake CDC card, so requiring documentation really doesn't do much.

Couldn't they ask if you are vaccinated and put a clause in the contract that if they contract the virus and it is later revealed that they were not vaccinated at the time of the cruise...that there is a hefty fine and ban from future cruises...

[Laurab23]

4 hours ago, Crazy planning mom said:

Cruising us set to begin in Bayonne in August.

On what cruise line?

 

Laura

[nyc12345]

1 hour ago, C-Dragons said:

August of 2022 according to the X website.

 

I don't see this information.  When I search for a cruise on X's website from Cape Liberty, I see cruises in May 2022...

[harkinmr]

3 hours ago, lx200gps said:

 

Have to agree with you on that. In that massive 200+ page thread on this forum, there's this small excerpt from the law, which seems to allow for just that:

 

381.00316 COVID-19 vaccine documentation.—  (1) A business entity, as defined in s. 768.38 to include  any business operating in this state, may not require patrons or  customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 817 vaccination or post-infection recovery to gain access to, entry  upon, or service from the business' operations in this state.  This subsection does not otherwise restrict businesses from instituting screening protocols in accordance with state or federal law to protect public health. 

 

Absolutely true. Federal law applies. But the Governor says otherwise. So there’s the challenge. 

 

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis was quoted by WFTS on Thursday in response to Celebrity's plans, "Companies doing business in Florida, including Celebrity Cruises, should immediately cease to impose such discriminatory policies upon individuals. Companies that violate this law would be subject to a fine of $5,000 each time they require a customer to present a 'vaccine passport' for service."   

[D C]

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Absolutely true. Federal law applies. But the Governor says otherwise. So there’s the challenge. 

 

 

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis was quoted by WFTS on Thursday in response to Celebrity's plans, "Companies doing business in Florida, including Celebrity Cruises, should immediately cease to impose such discriminatory policies upon individuals. Companies that violate this law would be subject to a fine of $5,000 each time they require a customer to present a 'vaccine passport' for service."   

That idiot thinks he can dig his way out of the hole he's in.

 

I'm guessing that the best lawyers in this scenario are not the ones who took jobs working for the state. 

[paulh84]

Odd that his talking heads keep singling out Celebrity when Royal Caribbean is doing the exact same thing. 

[harkinmr]

3 hours ago, npb said:

 

 

• The Rebound: Tampa Bay

  l News DESANTIS continues to deny CDC has authority 0over cruises

 

 

Photo by: Celebrity Cruises

 

By: Dan Trujillo

Posted at 11:45 AM, May 27, 2021

 

and last updated 12:57 PM, May 27, 2021

MIAMI, Fla. — Governor DeSantis' office has responded to rules set in place by Celebrity Cruises for their first scheduled hucruise out of Florida on June 26.

"The CDC has no legal authority to set any sort of requirements to cruise," the governor's office said. "Moreover, the CDC has acknowledged, on record, that the federal government chose not to make a legal requirement for vaccine passports. Now the CDC provides coercive “guidance,” in the absence of any federal law or congressional authorization, requiring cruise ships to violate state law."DeSantis said the cruise line violate the spirit of the Governor’s Emergency Order 21-81, which prohibits vaccine passports and protects the fundamental rights of Floridians – including the right to medical privacy. The governor also says the policy would be a violation of Florida’s recently enacted law banning vaccine passports, SB 2006, effective July 1 "Companies doing business in Florida, including Celebrity Cruises, should immediately cease to impose such discriminatory policies upon individuals. Companies that violate this law would be subject to a fine of $5,000 each time they require a customer to present a 'vaccine passport' for service," DeSantis said.

 

His office ended the statement by saying "we look forward to seeing Celebrity Cruises set sail in compliance with Florida law."

It’s just astounding. That’s the only word I can think of.