Florida vs. CDC

[coffeebean]

On 6/19/2021 at 12:46 PM, macandlucy said:

Okay, well I think we've gone as far as we can in this discussion.

 

I don't agree that cruise ships are a different animal and require more stringent rules than hotels or gyms or resorts or airplanes or hospitals for that matter. I don't think 100% vaccination is required for cruise ships when we are living without a 100% vax requirement for literally everywhere else.   It doesn't mean I won't sail on a ship with 100% vax requirement, (because I am going to be fully vaccinated) but I do think it's overkill.

But.....cruise ships have a reputation of being "petri dishes". Airlines do not have that reputation and neither do hotels, gyms or resorts. Hospitals.....now that is a whole other ball game so I won't go there.

[coffeebean]

On 6/19/2021 at 2:51 PM, KennyFla said:

Public health. I didn’t realize going on a cruise ship was mandatory.  It’s not like we are passing around bubonic plague to  the villagers. 
 

Mixed cruises are already shown to be safe. I think it’s pretty dishonest to scream doomsday because you want everyone to be vaccinated on your cruise. 
 

Mixed cruises have mask mandates, distancing requirements, capacity limits in venues and all sorts of other safety protocols. Why do people keep mentioning that mixed cruises have been sailing without incident without qualifying that fact that safety protocols are in place? Let's get real here.

[pmd98052]

52 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

mRNA vaccines are protective against the variants, including the Delta variant. I believe the AZ vaccine is the predominant vaccine used in the UK. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that. I do not know how effective the AZ vaccine is in protection against the Delta variant. Anyone have any data about that?

 Yes AZ is effective against Delta variant. Problem in U.K. is lots of under 30s still no vaccinated. They are largely the age groups getting it. Don’t forget vaccinated people also still can get COVID. They just don’t die from it. They can still spread it.

[pmd98052]

29 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Mixed cruises have mask mandates, distancing requirements, capacity limits in venues and all sorts of other safety protocols. Why do people keep mentioning that mixed cruises have been sailing without incident without qualifying that fact that safety protocols are in place? Let's get real here.

 Safety protocols that the anti vax folks would never tolerate.

[aftforsure]

21 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

 Safety protocols that the anti vax folks would never tolerate.

Although I could tolerate such steps, I would never pay thousands of dollars to go on a cruise and realistically be pretty much not fully enjoying myself.  That is why I am only interested in a fully vaccinated cruise.  But some politicians chose to politicize this and butt their nose into a private business.

[coffeebean]

23 hours ago, KennyFla said:

No. That is not what was said. 
 

And yes, mixed cruises have been sailing safely since last August. 

Haven't those mixed cruises required masking, distancing, capacity limits in venues and other safety protocols? Many people, including myself, who are fully vaccinated, do not want to cruise under those safety protocols. So......stating that those mixed cruises have been "sailing safely" means nothing to me. Those cruises do not interest me in the least.

 

How many fully vaxxed people, NOT traveling with anyone who is non- vaxxed, are willing to cruise with those safety protocols in place? Who in the world wants to mask up on a cruise vacation if no one in your travel party is not vaccinated? Think about that.

[coffeebean]

9 hours ago, WarfRatWA said:

The author of the study referenced is CLIA.  Their press release says the following:

 

"Nearly 400,000 passengers have already sailed from Europe and parts of Asia since last summer, following stringent, science-based protocols"

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2021/april/clia-issues-statement-reiterating-its-call-for-the-lifting-of-the-cdcs-conditional-sailing-order

 

What are the stringent science based protocol's that have led to this success?  Is mask wearing, social distancing, limiting services, reduced capacity, contact tracing, quarantining?  I honestly don't know and I cannot seem to find it online  Perhaps you could point me in that direction.

 I will make a wager that masking is one of those stringent science based protocols. Anyone want some action?

[coffeebean]

3 hours ago, pmd98052 said:

Kids have to be vaccinated to go to schools. It’s hardly outrageous that to go into a high risk indoor environment during a pandemic that vaccinations are key. 
 

It’s funny to see folks say “but in Europe these cruises have been unvaccinated”…. I was on a MSC Cruise out of Southampton and they require masks everywhere something all the anti vax folks also say is a restriction of “freedom”. Sad to see health is now political.

You are just realizing this now?

[coffeebean]

44 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

 Yes AZ is effective against Delta variant. Problem in U.K. is lots of under 30s still no vaccinated. They are largely the age groups getting it. Don’t forget vaccinated people also still can get COVID. They just don’t die from it. They can still spread it.

Vaccinated people spread Covid at a much reduced rate than un-vaxxed people. In fact, the rate that vaccinated people spread Covid is so miniscule, it is essentially a non issue. This is the reason why the CDC change their guidance for vaccinated people some time ago. A fully vaccinated person does not have to quarantine if they are exposed to a KNOWN Covid positive person unless the fully vaccinated person develops symptoms. That, right there, is HUGE regarding the inability of fully vaccinated people to spread the disease.

[coffeebean]

47 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

 Safety protocols that the anti vax folks would never tolerate.

Most people who are anti-vaxx are probably those people who have been anti-mask from the beginning of this pandemic. Glad I do not socialize with any of them.

[saltsandknit]

I took a vacation in April to Las Vegas. DH and I were fully vaccinated but masks were still required everywhere. We enjoyed the trip but it really didn’t feel like a vacation. The casinos were okay but the plexiglass glass divided tables were weird. Dining was the hardest part of it. I wouldn’t do it again and I really don’t want to cruise in those conditions 

[seemoreroyals]

"Do not go on a cruise if you are not vaccinated.  If you are vaccinated have a great time. " - Dr. Jonathan Reiner.  

 

Pretty much sums up the best common sense approach to cruising at this time.  

[electro]

18 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Mixed cruises have mask mandates, distancing requirements, capacity limits in venues and all sorts of other safety protocols. Why do people keep mentioning that mixed cruises have been sailing without incident without qualifying that fact that safety protocols are in place? Let's get real here.

add to that, you can only take ship's excursions or stay on the ship while in port.

[RaftingJeremy]

Still haven’t seen or heard anything about his effecting Alaska this season.  There were rumors it would make the new levels invalid but not one word so far.  Has anyone else heard anything?

[BermudaBound2014]

Follow up published today

 

:https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/25270-desantis-cdc-has-been-wrong-all-along.html

 

Included in the ruling, the Middle District Court of Florida found that:

• The CDC cannot discriminately keep children and families from cruising;
• Neither the CDC, nor any federal agency, can require a vaccine passport; and
• The CDC must create an actual framework for businesses to resume operations, rather than forcing them to conduct burdensome and bureaucratic tests without any standard by which to be measured.

 

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Follow up published today

 

:https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/25270-desantis-cdc-has-been-wrong-all-along.html

 

Included in the ruling, the Middle District Court of Florida found that:

• The CDC cannot discriminately keep children and families from cruising;
• Neither the CDC, nor any federal agency, can require a vaccine passport; and
• The CDC must create an actual framework for businesses to resume operations, rather than forcing them to conduct burdensome and bureaucratic tests without any standard by which to be measured.

 

 

It looks like, for children on cruises, the CDC is just going to have a hard time overcoming this/these.  I don't know what their counter would be to the online 'advice (updated June 3, 2021) of the World Health Organization regarding such (i.e., recommending that they (children) not get vaccinated (again, 'at this time').

 

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/advice

 

"There is not yet enough evidence on the use of vaccines against COVID-19 in children to make recommendations for children to be vaccinated against COVID-19. Children and adolescents tend to have milder disease compared to adults. However, children should continue to have the recommended childhood vaccines."

[Karaboudjan]

2 hours ago, RaftingJeremy said:

Still haven’t seen or heard anything about his effecting Alaska this season.  There were rumors it would make the new levels invalid but not one word so far.  Has anyone else heard anything?

Since the ruling only applies to Florida cruises I think it's no change for Alaska.

[graphicguy]

21 hours ago, seemoreroyals said:

"Do not go on a cruise if you are not vaccinated.  If you are vaccinated have a great time. " - Dr. Jonathan Reiner.  

 

Pretty much sums up the best common sense approach to cruising at this time.  

Succinct and to the point.  I like it.

 

All the cruise lines are sailing the way they planned to sail.....vaccinated (95%-100%)....either with the CDC COVID Vaccine card to be shown, or via restricting those who are unvaccinated, or without vaccine proof being required to pay for additional testing, additional mask wearing, and restrictions on where they can go on the ship and/or what they can participate in.

 

So, nothing has really changed.  The cruise lines have found a way around the FL sailing restrictions, and implemented policies that will allow them to sail from FL vaccinated.

[BermudaBound2014]

7 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

So, nothing has really changed.  The cruise lines have found a way around the FL sailing restrictions, and implemented policies that will allow them to sail from FL vaccinated.

 

Many things continue to change daily because covid is fluid.

 

The most recent changes seem to be directed at all the cruisers who said they would only sail with 100%  vaccinated (and stressed that 95% wasn't good enough). There appears to be quite a few posters who have changed their position related to this particular topic.

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[BermudaBound2014]

5 minutes ago, Karaboudjan said:

Since the ruling only applies to Florida cruises I think it's no change for Alaska.

 

We hope there isn't a change for Alaska but no one is certain yet. The legislation that allows Alaska sailings to bypass Canada speaks specifically to the CSO order. If there is no CSO order, there is a question how Alaska will be effected. It's a technicality in the way the law was written.

 

IMO: all 3 branches of our government should be working toward slamming through a bi-partisian rework of the language so Alaska sailors can breathe a sigh of relief once and for all.

[mmroadster]

Just now, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

We hope there isn't a change for Alaska but no one is certain yet. The legislation that allows Alaska sailings to bypass Canada speaks specifically to the CSO order. If there is no CSO order, there is a question how Alaska will be effected. It's a technicality in the way the law was written.

 

IMO: all 3 branches of our government should be working toward slamming through a bi-partisian rework of the language so Alaska sailors can breathe a sigh of relief once and for all.

I think the judge wrote his ruling with Alaska in mind, he specifically stated that the CSO would remain but just as guidance. 

[Cruiseaholic07]

So that ruling is specific to FL only. So if no further changes to the case before cruise season it won't impact Alaska cruises 

[BermudaBound2014]

7 minutes ago, mmroadster said:

I think the judge wrote his ruling with Alaska in mind, he specifically stated that the CSO would remain but just as guidance. 

 

4 minutes ago, jcu1210 said:

So that ruling is specific to FL only. So if no further changes to the case before cruise season it won't impact Alaska cruises 

 

I understand what you are both suggesting, but I'm not convinced we can declare Alaska a go just yet. It may very well/likely be fine, but unlike some on here, I would not guarantee 100% that Alaska sailings will actually sail :). There are many balls in the air, including the CDC's response. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[Karaboudjan]

42 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Succinct and to the point.  I like it.

 

All the cruise lines are sailing the way they planned to sail.....vaccinated (95%-100%)....either with the CDC COVID Vaccine card to be shown, or via restricting those who are unvaccinated, or without vaccine proof being required to pay for additional testing, additional mask wearing, and restrictions on where they can go on the ship and/or what they can participate in.

 

So, nothing has really changed.  The cruise lines have found a way around the FL sailing restrictions, and implemented policies that will allow them to sail from FL vaccinated.

 

I don't think the Florida vaccine thing is settled.  All the plans that I have seen look okay for limiting the number of un-vaccinated passengers and mitigating the risk of the ones that are onboard, but I think it's still very unclear how actually verifying vaccination will play out.

[graphicguy]

41 minutes ago, Karaboudjan said:

 

I don't think the Florida vaccine thing is settled.  All the plans that I have seen look okay for limiting the number of un-vaccinated passengers and mitigating the risk of the ones that are onboard, but I think it's still very unclear how actually verifying vaccination will play out.

Just going by my upcoming Celebrity Cruise on July 31, Celebrity has emailed me and said all vaccinated passengers will get specific upload instructions a week before we cruise.  And, to bring the original (no copies) CDC COVID Vaccine to the port on embarkation day and that mask wearing would not be required on board (although masks will be required at the pier during check in).  There's only one way that works, and that is to volunteer showing proof of the COVID vaccine.  If you don't, you are considered unvaccinated and subject to additional COVID tests (at passengers' expense) and will be required to wear a mask when outside their cabin, in addition to  not being to access some of the ship's activities.

 

Moreover, they said they would sail with at least 95% of passengers vaccinated.  That means the other 5% of unvaccinated will probably go to children under 16 (under 12 beginning August 1).

 

So, you either volunteer your Vaccine card at embarkation, or be considered unvaccinated.  Which sounds like they've got it covered.

 

NCL has even gone further than that stating 100% of passengers will be vaccinated.  So, I would imagine they'll do something similar.

Edited June 21, 2021 by graphicguy