Florida wins so Carnival can sail with kids

[jfunk138]

2 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

Or, require vaccines. 
 

Why should everyone have to jump through all these hoops to avoid a vaccine

 

i fully support your right not to get vaccinated, but going on a cruise is not a right. 
 

 

What plural "hoops"?  Just one hoop... limit your cruise to 7 days.

[skywonder]

47 minutes ago, fatcat04 said:

Read the ruling. The judge requested the CDCs data concerning their reasoning for all the restrictions in the CSO and obviously what they gave him wasn't adequate to keep an entire industry shut down while the rest of the nation is open. He may not be an epidemiologist but he did a pretty bang up job in pointing out the complete inconsistencies in the CDCs CSO and he is backed up by real data. 

You are 100 percent correct the judge did a great job.

[jfunk138]

1 minute ago, caniuseit said:

So, what’s the reasonable answer here?  Forbid cruises longer than 7 days?

or allow longer cruises to require vaccines?

 

The answer seems quite obvious. Let the cruise line run their business as they see fit. 

Don't forbid anything.   A cautious cruiseline would be wise to limit cruise duration.   But with a robust testing regime, longer cruises will likely be trouble free as well.

 

But yes, as long as there is real choice ( and not this silly Hobson's choice the CDC was attempting to require ), everybody should be able to find a cruise that works for them.

[TNcruising02]

Ok, I found the article where the judge was questioning the CDC and the CDC presented data from early 2020 to back up their claims!  The CDC claimed the transmission rate was 5 times higher on a cruise, but that was in the beginning of the pandemic, before testing, treatments, and vaccines. Also, he wanted proof to back up their strict mask restrictions. 

“Several thousand people are in close quarters for days and weeks,” she said. “We have data showing the transmission rate aboard cruise ships is five times higher than elsewhere.”
 

The judge’s questions hinted at skepticism. The federal government has used past cruise outbreaks, such as on the Diamond Princess, to help craft the rules and understand how the virus spreads onboard. Of the thousands of passengers on that ship, at least nine died, according to previous CDC statements, though Powell said the true number was higher.

 

“On a vessel without precautions designed for COVID, without knowledge of COVID and without therapeutics ... two-tenths of one percent of passengers died?” Merryday asked.
 

He also said the CDC’s own research suggested masks’ effect on tamping down the spread was “barely statistically significant” in one community where the agency had done a study.
 

“Where does this mask efficacy theory come from?” Merryday said. “We’ve had masking and social distancing for a long time and we had a pandemic in the middle of it.”

Powell responded that neither masks nor social distancing are cure-alls, but that they reduced the number of people who died.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article252007683.html

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:

Ok, I found the article where the judge was questioning the CDC and the CDC presented data from early 2020 to back up their claims!  The CDC claimed the transmission rate was 5 times higher on a cruise, but that was in the beginning of the pandemic, before testing, treatments, and vaccines. Also, he wanted proof to back up their strict mask restrictions. 

“Several thousand people are in close quarters for days and weeks,” she said. “We have data showing the transmission rate aboard cruise ships is five times higher than elsewhere.”
 

The judge’s questions hinted at skepticism. The federal government has used past cruise outbreaks, such as on the Diamond Princess, to help craft the rules and understand how the virus spreads onboard. Of the thousands of passengers on that ship, at least nine died, according to previous CDC statements, though Powell said the true number was higher.

 

“On a vessel without precautions designed for COVID, without knowledge of COVID and without therapeutics ... two-tenths of one percent of passengers died?” Merryday asked.
 

He also said the CDC’s own research suggested masks’ effect on tamping down the spread was “barely statistically significant” in one community where the agency had done a study.
 

“Where does this mask efficacy theory come from?” Merryday said. “We’ve had masking and social distancing for a long time and we had a pandemic in the middle of it.”

Powell responded that neither masks nor social distancing are cure-alls, but that they reduced the number of people who died.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article252007683.html

 

 

Bravo to the judge. He gets it. 

[lobster1313]

20 minutes ago, evandbob said:

If Florida wins, does Alaskan cruising stop?

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/florida-cruise-lawsuit-alaska-impact/

No. There's  link to the ruling at the end.

Edited June 19, 2021 by regoodwinjr

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

This will be appealed probably also this royally screws over the Alaska season.

[TNcruising02]

"Judge rules in Florida’s favor in CDC lawsuit, but Alaska’s cruise season is still ‘good to go

A federal judge’s ruling in a lawsuit brought by the state of Florida won’t affect cruise ship sailings to Alaska. But it does temporarily block the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s pandemic rules for cruises departing from Florida ports."

https://www.ktoo.org/2021/06/18/judge-rules-in-floridas-favor-in-cdc-lawsuit-but-alaskas-cruise-season-is-still-on/

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[bucfan2]

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Cruise lines still can set their own rules.

Gasping for straws now huh?

Edited June 19, 2021 by bucfan2

[MrMarc]

7 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Ok, I found the article where the judge was questioning the CDC and the CDC presented data from early 2020 to back up their claims!  The CDC claimed the transmission rate was 5 times higher on a cruise, but that was in the beginning of the pandemic, before testing, treatments, and vaccines. Also, he wanted proof to back up their strict mask restrictions. 

“Several thousand people are in close quarters for days and weeks,” she said. “We have data showing the transmission rate aboard cruise ships is five times higher than elsewhere.”
 

The judge’s questions hinted at skepticism. The federal government has used past cruise outbreaks, such as on the Diamond Princess, to help craft the rules and understand how the virus spreads onboard. Of the thousands of passengers on that ship, at least nine died, according to previous CDC statements, though Powell said the true number was higher.

 

“On a vessel without precautions designed for COVID, without knowledge of COVID and without therapeutics ... two-tenths of one percent of passengers died?” Merryday asked.
 

He also said the CDC’s own research suggested masks’ effect on tamping down the spread was “barely statistically significant” in one community where the agency had done a study.
 

“Where does this mask efficacy theory come from?” Merryday said. “We’ve had masking and social distancing for a long time and we had a pandemic in the middle of it.”

Powell responded that neither masks nor social distancing are cure-alls, but that they reduced the number of people who died.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article252007683.html

 

 

With 1 google search: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fmore%2Fmasking-science-sars-cov2.html

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

 

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

 

And I could go on.  I have no idea why they were not prepared better for that hearing.

[caniuseit]

19 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

What plural "hoops"?  Just one hoop... limit your cruise to 7 days.

Why?  
 

to accommodate those that don’t want to be vaccinated

 

lets make everyone cater to them?  That makes sense to you?

[TNcruising02]

3 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

With 1 google search: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fmore%2Fmasking-science-sars-cov2.html

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

 

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

 

And I could go on.  I have no idea why they were not prepared better for that hearing.

Using stats from early 2020 didn't help their case and was not reasonable.  All the CDC had to do was make reasonable requirements and not shut down an entire industry for over a year based on events from before we knew much at all about covid.

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

Also not saying I don't love this ruling and can't wait to get back to sailing but I also just don't see the CDC under this administration laying down for this ruling. I think it will get appealed and anyone's guess as to if that gets overturned or not. 

[lobster1313]

55 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

No, they did not come into the hearing to argue the science behind the rules.  Now, when they bring it in, a single Judge, having no medical or epidemiological training, is going to decide whether that science is good enough or not.  What would be interesting would be that now that they know what the Judge wants, they bring in science to back every one of their recommendations.  Then what happens? 

It was part of Florida's motion so they knew prior to the hearing that they would need the data.

[TNcruising02]

3 minutes ago, WhaleTailFlCruiser said:

Also not saying I don't love this ruling and can't wait to get back to sailing but I also just don't see the CDC under this administration laying down for this ruling. I think it will get appealed and anyone's guess as to if that gets overturned or not. 

If they had solid proof to back up their strict requirements, they would have presented it.  I think the two sides will come to a compromise.  Maybe the CDC will allow children under 12 and raise infection rate threshold. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[Djptcp]

This is not a win for Florida or cruise passengers. Who wants to cruise with a bunch of non-vaccinated children and adults? We'll see what happens when the cruises start again. Worst case scenario is Covid erupts and the cruise lines are shut down again. Best case scenario is all non-vaccinated passengers have to prove negative tests upon embarkation, have to wear masks in public places on the ships, and are tested at debarkation. Glad our first cruise isn't until Dec. '21 (11 days on Holland) and our first Carnival cruise isn't until Jan. '22. 

[caniuseit]

1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:

If they had solid proof to back up their strict requirements, they would have presented it.  I think the two sides will come to a compromise.  Maybe the CDC will allow children under 12 and raise infection rate threshold. 

I agree that there is reasonable middle ground to be had. 
 
but any reasonable middle would have to allow for some percentage to be vaccinated, which means the Florida law forbidding vaccine proof must go

 

and I don’t see the guv going there

[hurricane0226]

4 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

If they had solid proof to back up their strict requirements, they would have presented it.  I think the two sides will come to a compromise.  Maybe the CDC will allow children under 12 and raise infection rate threshold. 

CDC probably still does not have current data, just old data from last year's cruising, so they cannot present their case. Just like you said earlier. 

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

Cruise lines I also feel will probably still implement some strong measures because they know the media will crucify them if there is a major outbreak.  

 

Probably something like,

All unvaccinated will have to wear masks at all times in public areas unless actively eating or drinking. 

Probably will have to show proof of a negative test before sailing be tested after ports of calls ext and also tested on debarkation. 

And the Cruise lines will probably make the Pax who aren't vaccinated foot the bill for all of that. 

[TNcruising02]

8 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

I agree that there is reasonable middle ground to be had. 
 
but any reasonable middle would have to allow for some percentage to be vaccinated, which means the Florida law forbidding vaccine proof must go

 

and I don’t see the guv going there

Not really.  The cruise lines seem to be able to get around Florida's law by claiming they are following CDC guidelines.  If the CDC comes back and excludes children under 12 from the 5% of unvaccinated, then the cruise lines will be able to accommodate more families.  The CDC could still say that there needs to be 95% vaccinated, excluding under 12.  The cruise lines will proceed as they are, but possibly let more children sail.

The threshold for infections should be adjusted.  If 1.5% are infected and nobody has severe symptoms, that should not shut down a cruise.  That is not reasonable.  Anyway, I still think there is a way to move forward with a mostly vaccinated ship.  Besides that, most cruisers are vaccinated or have had covid.  There is no Boogey Man on a short 7 day cruise.

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[stellarose]

but what carnival is doing asking for voluntary vaccinated proof does not break law does it? sorry just a school teacher, not a lawyer. 

 

 

[lobster1313]

5 minutes ago, hurricane0226 said:

CDC probably still does not have current data, just old data from last year's cruising, so they cannot present their case. Just like you said earlier. 

Cruising has been happening without major incidents for almost a year so there's plenty of data that they could have used but since it didn't support their case it wasn't used,

[TNcruising02]

4 minutes ago, stellarose said:

but what carnival is doing asking for voluntary vaccinated proof does not break law does it? sorry just a school teacher, not a lawyer. 

 

 

Someone made a post awhile back that made sense to me.  If the CDC requires 95% vaccinated and up to 5% unvaccinated, then the cruise lines can exclude unvaccinated people once they reach the 5%.  They are denying service based on CDC guidelines and not denying on vaccination status. Anyway, that made sense to me.

If the CDC changes the guidelines, then the cruise lines can use whatever new guidelines are accepted by both sides and still not break Florida's law.  I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other way around the law.

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[caniuseit]

3 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

The CDC could still say that there needs to be 95% vaccinated, excluding under 12.

How?  The Florida law does not exempt the restriction just because the cdc rules mandate it. In fact I am certain it was put in to thwart the cdc requirement

 

the Florida mandate, I believe is much more about politics than health. 

[jfunk138]

2 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Not really.  The cruise lines seem to be able to get around Florida's law by claiming they are following CDC guidelines.  If the CDC comes back and excludes children under 12 from the 5% of unvaccinated, then the cruise lines will be able to accommodate more families.  The CDC could still say that there needs to be 95% vaccinated, excluding under 12.  The cruise lines will proceed as they are, but possibly let more children sail.

The threshold for infections should be adjusted.  If 1.5% are infected and nobody has symptoms, that should not shut down a cruise.  That is not reasonable.  Anyway, I still think there is a way to move forward with a mostly vaccinated ship.  Besides that, most cruisers are vaccinated.  There is no Boogey Man on a short 7 day cruise.

I'm not sure why you keep talking about the 95% vaccinated threshold.  One of the key points of the decision was that is unconstitutional for CDC to mandate any level of vaccination, so "the threshold" is gone if the decision stands.

 

Also, I think a set of restrictions comparable to air travel is required to pass the "reasonableness" requirement and there's no mention of vaccines for air travel.

 

From this point forward vaccination requirements are an issue for cruiselines to decide independently while complying with their homeports requirements.