Florida wins so Carnival can sail with kids

[kdr69]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC did "detain" vessels for 8 months, not 15 (the length of the "no sail order", but during the "no sail order" the way to obtain "free pratique" was available to the cruise lines, as outlined in the April 2020 amendment, where the lines were given the opportunity to submit an application for "free pratique" which could have been granted to individual ships or lines on a case by case basis.  The ships could have been sailing long ago, under the same conditions that the lines are currently working with.  

Since they arent "currently" sailing they are still detained, also that the ships could have been sailing months ago is arguable at best and an opinion i dont necessarily share but i recognize as a legitimate argument which i cannot entirely dismiss.  The current argument is that they are NOT sailing as they should be.  The way to obtain "free pratique" identified in the CSO was way outside of the conditions set forth under the current legislation was the Judges point.

[jimbo5544]

17 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

I think the Judge certainly referred to the line when he said the following....

 

Never has CDC (or a predecessor) detained a vessel for more than fifteen months; never has CDC implemented a widespread or industry-wide detention of a fleet of vessels in American waters; never has CDC conditioned pratique as extensively and burdensomely as the conditional sailing order; and never has CDC imposed restrictions that have summarily dismissed the effectiveness of state regulation and halted for an extended time an entire multi-billion dollar industry nationwide. In a word, never has CDC implemented measures as extensive, disabling, and exclusive as those under review in this action.

 

 Very powerful.  Thanks for posting.  

[kdr69]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

He has essentially thrown out the authority to set public health requirements for "free pratique" that he previously acknowledged was within the CDC's jurisdiction.

Again i respectfully disagree he set the authority as what is identified as the authority within CDC jurisdiction as described in the current legislation.  He continually tried to get the CDC to identify what is their boundaries of authority and the answer was whatever we think it should be.  

[sm3ds]

10 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

The CDC wasn't given the boot. Worst case, a vestige of the previous administration was shown the door and now the CDC can get a fresh start.

I see you are trying to put a positive spin on  things, but the CDC lost. 

[Radiioman46]

Recommending not Demanding. That's the way it should have been all along. IMO.

[sm3ds]

44 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

I dont believe he threw anything out.  He specifically gave them until July 2nd to come up with guidelines and recommendations in keeping with those currently being applied to other industries.  Ii think this gives the CDC an opportunity to amend the current CSO and work with the Cruise lines on protocols that are acceptable to all parties and not draconian in nature as they are now.

Wouldn't those just be guidelines and recommendations and not another version of the CSO. 

[BoozinCroozin]

Even though FL and DeSantis won, I don't think the cruise lines are dumb enough to not accept some protocols voluntarily. Here are the points that I think will be good or the path I would take,

• If you voluntarily provide covid vaccine information, you will not need to have routine health checks: temperature, mid-cruise PCR test, and debarkation PCR test. If you do not provide the voluntary information, you accept the cost of the testing to be added to your S&S Account. The passengers can take the receipt of payment to their private insurance for reimbursement as they see fit.
• Reasonable distancing where possible.
• Children under 12 can sail, but see the first bullet point. 
• Passengers can take independent shore excursions but must adhere to in country laws/rules for distancing, masks, etc.

 

 

[firefly333]

I saw adventure ots pax getting off in cozumel wearing masks. I saw people asking and answered cozumel currently has a mask policy in public, but it's not strictly enforced and not required at the beach. Interesting. Hope theh drop it by sept.

 

While I am vaccinated myself and of course personally I'd prefer a vaccinated cruise, I felt bad for families and will be glad if more children are allowed to board. It's not all about me, like many on here. Too many families booked and have no idea there was even a issue who post on my roll calls. I dont want to see them not allowed to go.

[lobster1313]

6 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Even though FL and DeSantis won, I don't think the cruise lines are dumb enough to not accept some protocols voluntarily. Here are the points that I think will be good or the path I would take,

• If you voluntarily provide covid vaccine information, you will not need to have routine health checks: temperature, mid-cruise PCR test, and debarkation PCR test. If you do not provide the voluntary information, you accept the cost of the testing to be added to your S&S Account. The passengers can take the receipt of payment to their private insurance for reimbursement as they see fit.
• Reasonable distancing where possible.
• Children under 12 can sail, but see the first bullet point. 
• Passengers can take independent shore excursions but must adhere to in country laws/rules for distancing, masks, etc.

 

 

That's pretty much what RCL is doing but thehncover the testing for the under 12

[Cafedumonde]

1 hour ago, aquasea said:

 

"A federal judge has ruled that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) can't enforce its 'authoritarian' pandemic-era sailing orders against Florida cruise ships from mid-July."

 

I do have to LOL at this great point by the judge:

 

"In the ruling, he compared the "authoritarian" rules to implementing a nationwide ban on sex because of a fear of STDs." 

It’s actually a great comparison and one I have thought of myself.  Millions walk around with stds and infect others wittingly or unwittingly, but we never would round up or trace those people— or impose different laws on them.  That’s what an authoritarian society would do.

[bitemyfly]

This nightmare is ending, we have  incredible effective vaccines developed within a year and in peoples arms who want it.

The political folk who used this for personal power and gain are being trumped by the science, law, and certainly common sense. 

Cruising is starting up, and there are options for all ..

Im heading to Europe in August and now looking forward to a nice fall cruise ..

 

[rabidstoat]

4 hours ago, Heartgrove said:

 

Currently for months now ALL returning passengers entering the USA and arriving on International flights are required to present a negative PCR test not older than three days. The onus is on the passenger with the airlines as the gatekeeper for this CDC rule and will deny boarding at the embarkation airport. If you read the CDC requirement there are no exceptions and even includes diplomats.

 

Strange how the airlines haven't complained about that. I suppose the CDC could move to that tactic seeing as the airlines have been doing it without complaint.

 

Flights also require masks, vaccinated or not, and that rule would suck if applied to cruise ships since they are "a form of transportation."

 

The CDC could require covid tests before return, but what do you do if a passenger fails? Does the ship get quarantined for 14 days so the passenger can be quarantined? For flying it's easy, they don't get on the plane, but in this case the person is already on the ship.

[balcony bound]

Just now, rabidstoat said:

 

Flights also require masks, vaccinated or not, and that rule would suck if applied to cruise ships since they are "a form of transportation."

 

The CDC could require covid tests before return, but what do you do if a passenger fails? Does the ship get quarantined for 14 days so the passenger can be quarantined? For flying it's easy, they don't get on the plane, but in this case the person is already on the ship.

 

Ships will not be quarantined.  That's been addressed previously.  Passenger would need to quarantine (local accommodation) before flying if that was how they arrived at the port.

 

CDC isn't going to making the rules going forward, only suggestions.  Cruise line will now be free to craft their own guidelines for passengers.

[TNcruising02]

7 minutes ago, rabidstoat said:

 

Flights also require masks, vaccinated or not, and that rule would suck if applied to cruise ships since they are "a form of transportation."

 

The CDC could require covid tests before return, but what do you do if a passenger fails? Does the ship get quarantined for 14 days so the passenger can be quarantined? For flying it's easy, they don't get on the plane, but in this case the person is already on the ship.

Why would a ship get quarantined if a person tests positive?  Quarantine the person, not the entire ship. Already, the cruise lines said that if someone tests positive before boarding the ship, they contracted with a hotel. It would be easy to have that person go straight to the hotel upon arrival.  I just don't get the fear of a positive covid case in these times with vaccines and treatments.  People test positive all of the time and airlines, hotels, and restaurants don't have to shut down.

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, balcony bound said:

 

Ships will not be quarantined.  That's been addressed previously.  Passenger would need to quarantine (local accommodation) before flying if that was how they arrived at the port.

 

CDC isn't going to making the rules going forward, only suggestions.  Cruise line will now be free to craft their own guidelines for passengers.

Bingo

[rabidstoat]

4 minutes ago, balcony bound said:

 

Ships will not be quarantined.  That's been addressed previously.  Passenger would need to quarantine (local accommodation) before flying if that was how they arrived at the port.

 

CDC isn't going to making the rules going forward, only suggestions.  Cruise line will now be free to craft their own guidelines for passengers.

 

Well, except in Florida, where the cruise lines aren't free to require proof of vaccination.

 

I just wish the government -- federal and state -- would stay out of it and let the companies make their own policies. So no CDC requirements at all, just suggestions, and no restrictions on requiring vaccination status. If companies don't want to require proof of vaccination and let people wear masks or not on the honor system, fine with me. If other companies want vaccination-only cruises, fine with me too.

 

We aren't in a health crisis currently in the US so I wish the government would just stay out of it.

[rabidstoat]

5 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Why would a ship get quarantined if a person tests positive?  Already, the cruise lines said that if someone tests positive before boarding the ship, they contracted with a hotel. It would be easy to have that person go straight to the hotel upon arrival.  I just don't get the fear of a positive covid case in these times with vaccines and treatments.  People test positive all of the time and airlines, hotels, and restaurants don't have to shut down.

 

I agree quarantining a ship because a person was tested positive would be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that treating the ship like other forms of transportation with the exact same rules doesn't work, because of reasons like that. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, kdr69 said:

Since they arent "currently" sailing they are still detained,

If they are "detained", they are only due to their management's inactivity over the last 15 months.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, kdr69 said:

Again i respectfully disagree he set the authority as what is identified as the authority within CDC jurisdiction as described in the current legislation.  He continually tried to get the CDC to identify what is their boundaries of authority and the answer was whatever we think it should be.  

So, tell me, who else has the authority, or expertise to set the boundaries of  what is acceptable federal regulation regarding public health?

[MrMarc]

I wonder how many people that are happy that the cruise lines can now follow the recommendations of the Healthy Sail Panel have actually read them: https://safety4sea.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/healthy-sail-panel-full-recommendations.pdf?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=3b62ad2970e074e79df47ee90805258483e3b345-1624117147-0-AbdNlzaV5Hz7zN1hi0j4asVfnNvdtGyfPiFa2vD9A3JJ8myxkqgGfPMbybkqCyfGwfk7Oj5A8LelYoHxPwavnREZ5hkujkoZtCG5HN47GtSJrxiQUU-04LP88QratkCi5NzFUKAU3DqnLXX9qj12AL5f5HaKdScDm9SESQhhfsVw8t2aXM_tO7Vbg8NwndfqOd_RiALN3FhAzoe9_NM4Fs9xvwUIBSeo2xRBmeoPKObPwDOGBmu_cCbKVwU55veK0-XDEL9LDB3jTCTQ3TG8PNuO1FQHFlFJFim_ColR7MeZ7fLhEhBsyT63Br8vLerlp5lPiXbC_vr9FG2P-aNuPgqagtVr3gh7DsWBsBn192yWBSdufEBJBGvsTdntUIP_Q_qiq96mBLXqs7Bn0-WLgMqCrDLu2ob6MrxCn7KzZKjBSCy2INkUZLArx9OFdyIa8BVNxf9C85uLbjXXx8Ni0V7MNn0eNdS3pCrnVh9PkXQz

[balcony bound]

2 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I wonder how many people that are happy that the cruise lines can now follow the recommendations of the Healthy Sail Panel have actually read them: https://safety4sea.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/healthy-sail-panel-full-recommendations.pdf?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=3b62ad2970e074e79df47ee90805258483e3b345-1624117147-0-AbdNlzaV5Hz7zN1hi0j4asVfnNvdtGyfPiFa2vD9A3JJ8myxkqgGfPMbybkqCyfGwfk7Oj5A8LelYoHxPwavnREZ5hkujkoZtCG5HN47GtSJrxiQUU-04LP88QratkCi5NzFUKAU3DqnLXX9qj12AL5f5HaKdScDm9SESQhhfsVw8t2aXM_tO7Vbg8NwndfqOd_RiALN3FhAzoe9_NM4Fs9xvwUIBSeo2xRBmeoPKObPwDOGBmu_cCbKVwU55veK0-XDEL9LDB3jTCTQ3TG8PNuO1FQHFlFJFim_ColR7MeZ7fLhEhBsyT63Br8vLerlp5lPiXbC_vr9FG2P-aNuPgqagtVr3gh7DsWBsBn192yWBSdufEBJBGvsTdntUIP_Q_qiq96mBLXqs7Bn0-WLgMqCrDLu2ob6MrxCn7KzZKjBSCy2INkUZLArx9OFdyIa8BVNxf9C85uLbjXXx8Ni0V7MNn0eNdS3pCrnVh9PkXQz

 

That is old... prior to vaccinations.  Things have changed.

[MrMarc]

Just now, balcony bound said:

 

That is old... prior to vaccinations.  Things have changed.

Are you aware of an updated report by the panel?

[balcony bound]

Just now, MrMarc said:

Are you aware of an updated report by the panel?

 

Didn't look for it, but there is no way they will go by a September 2020 guideline.  Like I said, things have changed.

[SRQbeachgirl]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If they are "detained", they are only due to their management's inactivity over the last 15 months.

 

A federal judge disagrees. The ruling discusses this, stating that the rules the CDC provided were so burdensome and vague that the cruise lines had no ability to comply and run profitable sailings. He stated that without the ability to profit, the CDC was effectively detaining the ships. 

[chengkp75]

21 minutes ago, balcony bound said:

CDC isn't going to making the rules going forward, only suggestions.  Cruise line will now be free to craft their own guidelines for passengers.

 

16 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Bingo

So, do you believe that this ability of the CDC to only issue "suggestions" will be limited to covid, or do you believe the judge removed the federal government's authority to impose public health requirements on all vessels and airplanes engaged in international transportation, as well as airplanes, buses, and trains involved in interstate transportation?

 

He seems to have limited the ability to protect the public health by limiting the scope of the "other measures" clause of the PHA to only refer to the previous 6 situations.  It seems unlikely that the framers of the act would include a generic "other measures" clause if they only meant it to refer to a set of specific circumstances already spelled out.