Florida wins so Carnival can sail with kids

[TNcruising02]

1 minute ago, caniuseit said:

How?  The Florida law does not exempt the restriction just because the cdc rules mandate it. In fact I am certain it was put in to thwart the cdc requirement

 

the Florida mandate, I believe is much more about politics than health. 

It appears the cruise lines can use CDC guidelines as their excuse for only allowing 5% unvaccinated.  Carnival must have some way to do it because that's what they are doing.

[caniuseit]

4 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Someone made a post awhile back that made sense to me.  If the CDC requires 95% vaccinated and up to 5% unvaccinated, then the cruise lines can exclude unvaccinated people once they reach the 5%.  They are denying service based on CDC guidelines and not denying on vaccination status. Anyway, that made sense to me.

It the CDC changes the guidelines, then the cruise lines can use whatever new guidelines are accepted by both sides and still not break Florida's law.  I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other way around the law.

But you can’t know the percentage unless you have actual data which is illegal to get in Florida 

 

carnival may have a way but it would either be suspect or illegal. Unless they ask and 95% show the paperwork voluntarily 

Edited June 19, 2021 by caniuseit

[TNcruising02]

1 minute ago, jfunk138 said:

I'm not sure why you keep talking about the 95% vaccinated threshold.  One of the key points of the decision was that is unconstitutional for CDC to mandate any level of vaccination, so "the threshold" is gone if the decision stands.

 

Also, I think a set of restrictions comparable to air travel is required to pass the "reasonableness" requirement and there's no mention of vaccines for air travel.

 

From this point forward vaccination requirements are an issue for cruiselines to decide independently while complying with their homeports requirements.

I was just using it as an example.  I have no clue what kind of compromise will happen. It is possible that the CDC can't impose different sets of cruising requirements for vaccinated and unvaccinated.  Hopefully, the CDC and Florida will come to some type of agreement soon.

[TNcruising02]

2 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

But you can’t know the percentage unless you have actual data which is illegal to get in Florida 

You can't deny service based on vaccination status.  But it appears that they thought they could deny service based on meeting CDC guidelines.  When Carnival stated they were sailing with vaccinated passengers and less than 5% exempted, that kind of took care of things. Unvaccinated people will either submit an exemption form, rebook, or will get a refund.  I think they cleverly figured out a way around the law.

Now that the CDC has to come up with less restrictive rules, Carnival can adjust their protocols. 

[Keys2Heaven]

Well, I honestly didn't see that one coming. Good news and I look forward to cruising resume full swing by September!

Edited June 19, 2021 by Keys2Heaven

[bdever]

Carnival can do lots of things, but with increased number of unvaccinated passengers onboard means greater risk of covid and transmission on board too. Regardless of the age of the positive passenger, it would be prudent of Carnival to implement stricter protocols with a great number of unvaccinated passengers sailing including multiple tests performed regardless of age, wearing of masks regardless of vaccination status, isolation, quarantine and dropping off positive passengers and their entire party at ports or on the ship in designated isolation areas, and have all passengers remain in cruise sponsored shore excursion bubbles… you know, like their Aida & Costa brands have been doing in other parts of the world. Or they can go the Royal route and have separate protocols for a greater number of unvaccinated passengers regardless of age. Or they can have certain ships sail only vaccinated passengers as MrMarc suggested. Of course what ever prudent options Carnival chooses to implement would also be more heavily influenced now by the countries and ports they visit.

[BlerkOne]

28 minutes ago, regoodwinjr said:

Cruising has been happening without major incidents for almost a year so there's plenty of data that they could have used but since it didn't support their case it wasn't used,

Data that supports masks, social distancing, and a host of different protocols depending on vaccination status. Don't want to volunteer proof? You default to unvaccinated protocols, including not being allowed off the ship if not on a ship tour. Enjoy!

[bdever]

3 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Data that supports masks, social distancing, and a host of different protocols depending on vaccination status. Don't want to volunteer proof? You default to unvaccinated protocols, including not being allowed off the ship if not on a ship tour. Enjoy!

Exactly, we most likely will need to default to unvaccinated protocols with a greater number of unvaccinated children sailing. It’s obviously been working in other parts of the world for sometime now. Carnival is not going to put themselves at risk financially by allowing a greater number of unvaccinated passengers onboard with greater risk of an outbreak and as you have wisely pointed out, we now have the Delta variant to contend with. Be careful what you wish for.

[sailingships]

31 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Also, I think a set of restrictions comparable to air travel is required to pass the "reasonableness" requirement and there's no mention of vaccines for air travel.

 

 

Youre right. Just a neg test. The passengers have been crammed into the planes with no spacing no so called 'social distancing' Just masks required in the terminals and on the planes. Most states have been open with no requirement for masks or social distancing for months now, including Florida.

[sailingships]

12 minutes ago, bdever said:

Carnival can do lots of things, but with increased number of unvaccinated passengers onboard means greater risk of covid and transmission on board too. Regardless of the age of the positive passenger, it would be prudent of Carnival to implement stricter protocols with a great number of unvaccinated passengers sailing including multiple tests performed regardless of age, wearing of masks regardless of vaccination status, isolation, quarantine and dropping off positive passengers and their entire party at ports or on the ship in designated isolation areas, and have all passengers remain in cruise sponsored shore excursion bubbles… you know, like their Aida & Costa brands have been doing in other parts of the world. Or they can go the Royal route and have separate protocols for a greater number of unvaccinated passengers regardless of age. Or they can have certain ships sail only vaccinated passengers as MrMarc suggested. Of course what ever prudent options Carnival chooses to implement would also be more heavily influenced now by the countries and ports they visit.

Hey kid just wear a mask !!! or dont cruise.

[lobster1313]

13 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Data that supports masks, social distancing, and a host of different protocols depending on vaccination status. Don't want to volunteer proof? You default to unvaccinated protocols, including not being allowed off the ship if not on a ship tour. Enjoy!

I guess someone did't read the judges ruling. What data none of it was presented and what was didn't support mask wearing. You have been wrong about this suit and you continue with the same false points.

Edited June 19, 2021 by regoodwinjr

[BlerkOne]

Just now, regoodwinjr said:

I guess someone did't read the judges ruling. What data none of it was presented and what was didn't support mask wearing. You have been wrong about this suit and you continue with the same false points,

I guess you didn't. The judge referenced cruises currently happening several times. These provide current data the judge is looking for. The judge won't argue with success.

 

The suit isn't over. The judge is giving the CDC a do over and even telling them how to do it.

[bdever]

1 minute ago, sailingships said:

Hey kid just wear a mask !!! or dont cruise.

I agree, that’s an option, Carnival can now enforce mask protocols on all unvaccinated passengers regardless of age. 

[tidecat]

4 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

But you can’t know the percentage unless you have actual data which is illegal to get in Florida 

 

carnival may have a way but it would either be suspect or illegal. Unless they ask and 95% show the paperwork voluntarily 

There's the whole question of whether Florida actually has the authority to regulate international travel at all. So far that question hasn't come up in court, but Florida may not like the answer if it does. Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution gives Congress the sole authority "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States".  Now if asking for proof of vaccination violates Federal law (perhaps the Americans with Disabilities Act?) then the cruise lines would have no choice but to comply. This would also be another nail in the coffin of the Conditional Sailing Order if that is the case.

 

Cruise lines may also be able to argue that if a foreign nation were to require a vaccine (for anything, not just COVID) that they may suffer economic harm in that a port could deny them the ability to dock. Not much of an issue for the Caribbean, but more likely to affect Transatlantic sailings.

 

I have a feeling the vaccination proof question will have to be heard in court. There's just not any middle ground here. At least the test sailing requirement disappears (did any airlines have to do test flights?) that may remove one of the obstacles for cruise lines willing to resume without requiring vaccinations.

 

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

5 minutes ago, tidecat said:

There's the whole question of whether Florida actually has the authority to regulate international travel at all. So far that question hasn't come up in court, but Florida may not like the answer if it does. Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution gives Congress the sole authority "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States".  Now if asking for proof of vaccination violates Federal law (perhaps the Americans with Disabilities Act?) then the cruise lines would have no choice but to comply. This would also be another nail in the coffin of the Conditional Sailing Order if that is the case.

 

Cruise lines may also be able to argue that if a foreign nation were to require a vaccine (for anything, not just COVID) that they may suffer economic harm in that a port could deny them the ability to dock. Not much of an issue for the Caribbean, but more likely to affect Transatlantic sailings.

 

I have a feeling the vaccination proof question will have to be heard in court. There's just not any middle ground here. At least the test sailing requirement disappears (did any airlines have to do test flights?) that may remove one of the obstacles for cruise lines willing to resume without requiring vaccinations.

 

Which either Desantis yields and allows the cruiselines to do it or they probably challenge the law in court

[lobster1313]

24 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I guess you didn't. The judge referenced cruises currently happening several times. These provide current data the judge is looking for. The judge won't argue with success.

 

The suit isn't over. The judge is giving the CDC a do over and even telling them how to do it.

3 strikes and there out. The request wasn't a do over. It was a threat since they haven't provided the data in the two previous hearings. I have read it and there's nothing in there that's positive for the CDC and their only hope is a compromise with Florida.

[jfunk138]

Remember that day back in May when the CDC updated their mask guidelines and within a week ~40 of the 50 states dropped ALL restrictions within a week?  Today is that day for cruising.  By the time CDC returns from Juneteenth holiday week, cruising might look more like 2019 than many think...

[ProgRockCruiser]

2 minutes ago, vacruisin said:

We just are not going to sail unless we can get the same cruise experience we had pre-COVID!  No masks, social distancing, testing, etc.  There is just no way that is going to happen if unvaccinated people are allowed to cruise.  

Well, that is just what this ruling seems to say: the CDC requirements for masks for unvaxxed go right out the window. All can sail, and no restrictions, just suggestions.

[cruisingguy007]

5 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

Well, that is just what this ruling seems to say: the CDC requirements for masks for unvaxxed go right out the window. All can sail, and no restrictions, just suggestions.

 

Like magic, covid will just disappear eh? The ruling solves everything? It's like a miracle! 

[sm3ds]

The CDC has kept cruising shut down for over a year and now people are upset about the CDC getting the boot? Who would a thunk it. I'm starting to think you people just need something to argue about. 

[vacruisin]

12 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

Well, that is just what this ruling seems to say: the CDC requirements for masks for unvaxxed go right out the window. All can sail, and no restrictions, just suggestions.

I wonder, will all ports allow Carnival ships to dock if unvaccinated passengers are onboard?  Or if we’ll only be allowed to do book shore excursions sponsored by Carnival?  
 

There is just no way Carnival can take the risk of having a cruise with no restrictions if unvaccinated people are on their ships.  There will be some restrictive rules in place that would not be needed if they were sailing with only vaccinated passengers.

 

COVID is still out there; even if some folks want to act like it’s a thing of the past.  And some states are severely lagging in vaccination rates.  You bring all of these components together and you are potentially inviting another shutdown to the cruise industry.   

Edited June 19, 2021 by vacruisin

[BoozinCroozin]

Initial thought I'd that this is a win for FL. The cruise lines will have to assess. The CDC still has control of the ships for returning to port. If there is a case, they could deny the return and force them to stay out of the US. I am not saying they will, but they can impose a lot still. 

 

I think the cruise lines will continue with their current plans. Maybe not limit the number of under 12s onboard, but that may be about it. 

[SRQbeachgirl]

1 minute ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

Like magic, covid will just disappear eh? The ruling solves everything? It's like a miracle! 

 

No, COVID will not magically disappear. But with vaccines, effective therapy drugs, naturally-acquired immunity, and an increasing understanding of the virus, we can get back to normal.

[BlerkOne]

29 minutes ago, sm3ds said:

The CDC has kept cruising shut down for over a year and now people are upset about the CDC getting the boot? Who would a thunk it. I'm starting to think you people just need something to argue about. 

The CDC wasn't given the boot. Worst case, a vestige of the previous administration was shown the door and now the CDC can get a fresh start.

[sailingships]

3 hours ago, MrMarc said:

With I have no idea why they were not prepared better for that hearing.

Because the CDC thought they could just throw out anything and see if it would stick to the wall. And it worked for more than a year. Very little of their rules were lawful however.