Cruise ships allowed to return to Canada on Nov 1.

[tottenhamfc]

4 minutes ago, Tree_skier said:

oops you were a minute ahead of me.  You're also a much more able writer.  I should just follow you around from thread to thread, quoting your posts and say... "yeah, what he said!" 

Quite frankly I think you are incorrect in assuming that these ships are only utilizing Vancouver and Victoria because they have to. They are not US registered ships, so why are you inferring that they are using us just to appease your US laws. If they were US domiciled and registered ahips then you would be correct. But they are not. If you think that we have no appeal on a cruise itinerary then you are mistaken. Most crew members that I have spoken with rate Vancouver very highly on their list of favourite ports. 

[DirtyDawg]

This sure is a fun thread!

Let's now discuss cruising up the St. Lawrence in November. 😊

[dswallow]

23 minutes ago, tottenhamfc said:

Quite frankly I think you are incorrect in assuming that these ships are only utilizing Vancouver and Victoria because they have to. They are not US registered ships, so why are you inferring that they are using us just to appease your US laws. If they were US domiciled and registered ahips then you would be correct. But they are not. If you think that we have no appeal on a cruise itinerary then you are mistaken. Most crew members that I have spoken with rate Vancouver very highly on their list of favourite ports. 

 

Fact:

Of all sailings departing from Vancouver, there are 2 sailings that stop at Prince Rupert, BC (Sapphire Princess 5/2/2022 and Grand Princess 9/14/2022) and 22 sailings that stop at Victoria, BC (Koningsdam 4/10/2022 + 10/24/2022 + 4/8/2023 + 4/26/2023, Disney Wonder 4/21/2022, Sapphire Princess 5/2/2022, Quantum of the Seas 5/9/2022 + 10/3/2022, Queen Elizabeth 6/4/2022 + 6/14/2022 + 7/1/2022 + 7/11/2022, Celebrity Eclipse 9/11/2022, Grand Princess 9/14/2022, Celebrity Millenium 9/16/2022, Majestic Princess 9/20/2022, Sapphire Princess 9/24/2022, Serenade of the Seas 9/25/2022, Noordam 10/2/2022 + 5/2/2023, Crown Princess 11/2/2022 + 5/3/2023). The 2 sailings visiting Prince Rupert also visit Victoria, so there's 22 sailings that depart Vancouver and visit other Canadian ports.

 

There are a total of 222 sailings (Celebrity 30, Cunard 14, Disney 18, Holland America 25, Norwegian 25, Princess 72, Royal Caribbean 38) departing from Vancouver.

Only 10% of the ships that sail from Vancouver visit another Canadian port. And I should note several of those sailings are really long ones, 18 nights and more, so they are likely hard up for different ports to visit.

Fact:

 

The PVSA requires cruise ships embarking or debarking passengers at a US ports that are foreign-flagged and not fully staffed by crew with a certain level of work visa, to stop at a "distant" non-US port (for whatever reason Canada is considered a distant non-US port, but technically there really no other practical options except Russia, which would eliminate 7-night sailings.)
 

There are NO ships that meet this criteria though there is ONE ship that sails out of Hawaii which has been given an exception.

Thus either a ship sails from Seattle AND visits at least one Canadian port or it sails from Vancouver. Otherwise it cannot visit, start from, or end at Alaskan ports.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by dswallow

[DirtyDawg]

27 minutes ago, tottenhamfc said:

Quite frankly I think you are incorrect in assuming that these ships are only utilizing Vancouver and Victoria because they have to. They are not US registered ships, so why are you inferring that they are using us just to appease your US laws. If they were US domiciled and registered ahips then you would be correct. But they are not. If you think that we have no appeal on a cruise itinerary then you are mistaken. Most crew members that I have spoken with rate Vancouver very highly on their list of favourite ports. 

Sorry, but @Tree_skier and the others are correct about the U.S. law.

 

Frankly, the best way yo visit Victoria (if you can't visit the rest of the island 😰) is to to use the float plane from Vancouver harbour. Harbour to Harbour in 35 minutes and spent two or thee days exploring the city. It's a beautiful place but cruise stops there are a waste. It's like getting to see the Mona Lisa for only a few seconds as you file past it in the Louvre. She is still incredible but it's much to short of a time to really appreciate her. 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[dswallow]

If you'd like to read more about the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act) you can start here:

Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 - Wikipedia

[tottenhamfc]

21 minutes ago, dswallow said:

If you'd like to read more about the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act) you can start here:

Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 - Wikipedia

I am still not understanding your preoccupation with assuming that this is related to your Act. It is if you were to sail from a US starting port then I get it. But what difference does it make if you start from Vancouver? It is not making sense to me.

Edited July 16, 2021 by tottenhamfc
Added info

[tottenhamfc]

So lets assume that the cruiselines love Vancouver as its port can accommodate many more ships than Seattle. Remember our industry is relatively new compared to Seattle. Presumably there is  a very good reason to embark from here and not utilize Seattle other than extenuating circumstances like COVID. Thus PVSA act doesnt even come into play.

[dswallow]

1 minute ago, tottenhamfc said:

I am still not understanding your preoccupation with assuming that this is related to your Act. It is if you were to sail from a US starting port then I get it. But what difference does it make if you start from Vancouver? It is not making sense to me.

 

Because it is necessary to comply with the PVSA. If it weren't they would not stop in Victoria, BC, unless there was some benefit to stopping there for the cruise line, which there simply isn't. It exists as a stop to comply with the requirements of the PVSA, and is the only (viable) way they could sail from Seattle and visit Alaskan ports.

This is evidenced by only 10% of the sailings that visit Alaska that depart from Vancouver visiting there, when they otherwise have no need to visit there for any other purpose except as an itinerary item to attract passengers.

 

If the PVSA were ended tomorrow, you'd see Victoria, BC dropped from many if not most of those itineraries, or you'd see some effort made by officials in Victoria to compensate the cruise lines to leave the port on the itinerary.

As evidenced by the need for the Alaska Tourism Recovery Act (https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/593), a Canadian port (any port) is necessary for the Alaskan cruise industry and tourism in general in Alaska, and that is solely because of the PVSA requirements.

[dswallow]

1 minute ago, tottenhamfc said:

So lets assume that the cruiselines love Vancouver as its port can accommodate many more ships than Seattle. Remember our industry is relatively new compared to Seattle. Presumably there is  a very good reason to embark from here and not utilize Seattle other than extenuating circumstances like COVID. Thus PVSA act doesnt even come into play.

 

True, which is why of the 222 sailings from Vancouver to Alaskan ports, only 10% of them bother to stop in any other Canadian port. People don't care.

[Tree_skier]

9 minutes ago, tottenhamfc said:

I am still not understanding your preoccupation with assuming that this is related to your Act. It is if you were to sail from a US starting port then I get it. But what difference does it make if you start from Vancouver? It is not making sense to me.

Not one of Royals Vancouver departure stop at any other Canadian port. 

[tottenhamfc]

2 minutes ago, Tree_skier said:

Not one of Royals Vancouver departure stop at any other Canadian port. 

I never said anything about Victoria. I am merely suggesting that these cruises can start in Vancouver and yes there is no need to visit another Canadian city. Why are you constantly bringing Seattle into the equation as a starting point? It can and does start in Vancouver. Just like we have to travel to LA to go to Mexico or go to Florida to go to the Carribbean. 

[dswallow]

2 minutes ago, Tree_skier said:

Not one of Royals Vancouver departure stop at any other Canadian port. 

 

3 sailings do. See my above post.

Serenade
7 Night Pacific Coastal Cruise | Royal Caribbean Cruises
 

Quantum
7 Night Alaska Glacier Cruise | Royal Caribbean Cruises

10 Night Hawaii Cruise | Royal Caribbean Cruises
 

[dswallow]

2 minutes ago, tottenhamfc said:

I never said anything about Victoria. I am merely suggesting that these cruises can start in Vancouver and yes there is no need to visit another Canadian city. Why are you constantly bringing Seattle into the equation as a starting point? It can and does start in Vancouver. Just like we have to travel to LA to go to Mexico or go to Florida to go to the Carribbean. 

 

What are you arguing about anyway? Have you decided?

Yes, they can start in Vancouver and go to Alaska, without any other Canadian port stop required since the PVSA in the United States is satisfied by the departure port being Vancouver, and some 200 do. 

But a whole lot sail from Seattle on Alaskan itineraries... without actually counting, it appears about 50% more, or 300 sailings. And every one of them has to visit a Canadian port, solely because of PVSA requirements. So (a) there's still more demand for sailings from Seattle than from Vancouver, and (b) of those leaving from Vancouver there's apparently only sufficient desire/demand to visit other Canadian ports for 10% of those sailings to do so.

So what do you really think would happen if the PVSA didn't exist? Most of the Seattle sailings would likely drop any Canadian port, because the only reason they have them at all is because of the PVSA.

So oddly enough, a piece of protectionist legislation from the 1800's in the United States likely does more for Canadian tourism than it does for United States tourism. 🙂

[tottenhamfc]

14 minutes ago, dswallow said:

 

What are you arguing about anyway? Have you decided?

Yes, they can start in Vancouver and go to Alaska, without any other Canadian port stop required since the PVSA in the United States is satisfied by the departure port being Vancouver, and some 200 do. 

But a whole lot sail from Seattle on Alaskan itineraries... without actually counting, it appears about 50% more, or 300 sailings. And every one of them has to visit a Canadian port, solely because of PVSA requirements. So (a) there's still more demand for sailings from Seattle than from Vancouver, and (b) of those leaving from Vancouver there's apparently only sufficient desire/demand to visit other Canadian ports for 10% of those sailings to do so.

So what do you really think would happen if the PVSA didn't exist? Most of the Seattle sailings would likely drop any Canadian port, because the only reason they have them at all is because of the PVSA.

So oddly enough, a piece of protectionist legislation from the 1800's in the United States likely does more for Canadian tourism than it does for United States tourism. 🙂

Once again you are presuming that the US decides which port stops should be used for Alaska cruises. It is the cruiselines that decide not the US Govt, residents or laws. The presumption that it is not necessary, nor that it is worthwhile is self serving for your own reasons. We could fill ships with Canadians and visitors from other countries. The only reason that it is top heavy with US citizens is because you jump the itineraries warlier than others. 

[tottenhamfc]

I am suggesting that Vancouver could take up the slack and not even cruise out of Seattle. As I go to the US to sail, US citizens would come here. It really is six of one and half a dozen of the other unless US citizens dont have passports. If it to only satisfy US citizens to start a cruise from their own country then so be it. However you would miss the best part of the sea days on the inside passage.

Edited July 16, 2021 by tottenhamfc
Incorrect grammar

[dswallow]

7 minutes ago, tottenhamfc said:

I am suggesting that Vancouver could take up the slack and not even cruise out of Seattle. As I go to the US to sail, US citizens would come here. It really is six of one and half a dozen of the other unless US citizens dont have passports. If it to only satisfy US citizens to start a cruise from their own country then so be it. However you would miss the best part of the sea days on the inside passage.

 

Vancouver has been an embarkation/debarkation port for years. Apparently there's something else people look for that keeps cruise lines sailing from Seattle, too. It may very well be a certain simplicity of travel staying within the United States for flights, or even be related to travel costs, or perceived costs considering perhaps the need for currency conversions (math isn't the strongest point for a typical American, after all :)). Maybe the cruise lines have other infrastructure costs they need to consider, or want to spread it across more ports instead of focusing on one. I imagine nowadays any cruise line would look askance at Canada as an embarkation point if they are worried about the possibility of having their business shut down (yes, I know the same would be true in the US with the way the CDC has behaved, but there's still a difference if you have US customers unable to sail because of Canada vs being unable to sail because of the US).

[tottenhamfc]

Good we found some logical common ground. Personally I prefer to sail out of Vancouver for convenience but of course we are limited to itineraries. Alaska, Pacific Coastal and Hawaii. All great but variety is the spice if life so I am forced to travel to other countries to embark. Anyway an interesting debate. Have a great evening.

[Djsmrs]

On 7/16/2021 at 12:47 PM, Tree_skier said:

You apparently don't understand PVSA.  Victoria is a required the US government in order to not run a foul of US law. 

 

As far as there being enough Canadians to fill ships without Americans I think you are living in fantasy land.

I’m fairness - it doesn’t have to be Victoria specifically does it?   Just a foreign port.  Could be Prince Rupert.  I think it’s the rainiest city in the country.   Maybe even North America.   🤣🤣.   It would be really cool if people could stop in Haida Gwai - obviously it’s impossible as they don’t have the infrastructure to support a port of call - but it’s certainly somewhere not a lot of people get to see and is spectacular 

[not-enough-cruising]

On 7/15/2021 at 9:14 PM, zekekelso said:

If anything, the regulations are pretty generous. All the cruise lines have to do is make a technical stop in Canada and a cruise that is 95% American gets exempted from a bunch of US laws. 

So much false information to unpack in a small post!

[Another_Critic]

On 7/16/2021 at 4:07 PM, DirtyDawg said:

This sure is a fun thread!

Let's now discuss cruising up the St. Lawrence in November. 😊

I sailed the St. Lawrence in late October.  Had a nice snowfall while on board.

[xpcdoojk]

Wow… this is painful to read.  Apparently, we are still separated by a common language, because I can think of no explanation for this thread.  😆