Federal Judge Grants NCL Preliminary Injunction v Florida

[jrapps]

Just now, alfaeric said:

I wonder how long it will take to implement?  As in it being hard to enforce any new requirements for X number of weeks.  Since the full vaccine coverage happens 2 weeks after last (if only) dose- it *seems* that the fastest they can change the rules and not make it impossible for reservation holders to change would be 4 weeks.

 

The second thing- how do you get a good proof?  Seeing news stories that some are paying money to have forged cards (for a free vaccine,...) suggests that something other than the basic piece of paper may be needed.

Well, they COULD implement with little to no notice, as long as they give people on upcoming sailings the option to cancel and get refunds if they are not vaccinated. But that is a business decision. I have no idea what they would do in that situation personally.

 

As for proof, again up to them (don't you love free enterprise!), They legally COULD go as far as to require official state recorded documents. I personally doubt they will, and will just continue to ask for CDC cards, betting that the # of people actually forging them is so statistically insignificant compared to the hassle they would be imposing by asking for something more official. Yeah someone will eventually forge the card and make their way onto a cruise ship. Even in that scenario, the # of unvaccinated people on the ship would be far less than it could be now in FL with cruise lines allowing unvaccinated.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

That's a really 'hot button' statement that certainly can be refuted across various levels of federal and state court jurisdictions, as well as the SCOTUS.

 

But, with regard to the cruise industry, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

But, even SCOTUS, in Spector v NCL, ruled that in the case of foreign flag cruise ships in the interest of international commerce (saying what the CDC said in their case with Florida, that this is not a state issue) that unless Congress specifically mentions foreign flag ships, then federal law does not apply (in that case the ADA).  So, that ruling seems to put cruise industry under federal jurisdiction, and also addresses the freedom of foreign flag ships to have their own policies.

[bigdaddyyo]

55 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I agree. We will eventually see a convergence of sailing protocols until each cruise line has a single protocol to follow for all US based cruises. Regardless of the state, port, ship, length of cruise, etc. For simplicity, whatever combination of vaccinations, masking, testing, etc they choose to do, I expect to see Royal apply the exact same rules across the board. And I also fully expect that to be vaccines required for 12+, everyone test 3 days out, and masks onboard indoors.

 

It may take a few more weeks or longer to get there, but it will eventually happen, especially if this ruling is appealed quickly, and the 11th circuit upholds the injunction. That would really solidify the rule.

Don't forget travel insurance.  Royal currently has this idea that they will fly everyone home on a private jet at Royal's expense.  That just isn't practical and definitely not sustainable.  So either the cruise lines require everyone to get travel insurance or they just start keeping folks that test positive in a stateroom on Deck 2 in the corner of the ship.

[jrapps]

Just now, bigdaddyyo said:

Don't forget travel insurance.  Royal currently has this idea that they will fly everyone home on a private jet at Royal's expense.  That just isn't practical and definitely not sustainable.  So either the cruise lines require everyone to get travel insurance or they just start keeping folks that test positive in a stateroom on Deck 2 in the corner of the ship.

I think if they start requiring vaccines, the insurance requirements will go away, but yes they will still need a plan for vaccinated people who test positive.

 

I always wondered why they bothered to fly people home instead of just quarantining them for the remainder of the voyage.

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I always wondered why they bothered to fly people home instead of just quarantining them for the remainder of the voyage

Because, unless you lock them in a cabin with a bunch of MRE's, there is going to be outside contact, and the chance of breaking quarantine, as was seen on the Diamond Princess.  Crew are not trained, or experienced in dealing with airborne pathogens.

[bigdaddyyo]

5 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I think if they start requiring vaccines, the insurance requirements will go away, but yes they will still need a plan for vaccinated people who test positive.

 

I always wondered why they bothered to fly people home instead of just quarantining them for the remainder of the voyage.

I mean at this point Royal is basically showcasing the fact that they will fly you home.  Not sure if that is just to give some folks a peace of mind that they will be taken care of OR if Royal really plans on doing this all the time.  I don't see them being able to afford to fly them home every time.  I think if that is what they want to happen to get the person off the boat, then they will start requiring everyone to have travel insurance so they fly home on their own dime and not Royal's.

[jrapps]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Because, unless you lock them in a cabin with a bunch of MRE's, there is going to be outside contact, and the chance of breaking quarantine, as was seen on the Diamond Princess.  Crew are not trained, or experienced in dealing with airborne pathogens.

Yeah, you are probably right.

[cscurlock]

4 minutes ago, bigdaddyyo said:

I mean at this point Royal is basically showcasing the fact that they will fly you home.  Not sure if that is just to give some folks a peace of mind that they will be taken care of OR if Royal really plans on doing this all the time.  I don't see them being able to afford to fly them home every time.  I think if that is what they want to happen to get the person off the boat, then they will start requiring everyone to have travel insurance so they fly home on their own dime and not Royal's.

They can afford it if the ship is full and they can control the amount of infected people.  I am sure the bean counters at these cruise lines have calculated the actual number and what steps need to be taken to keep that number as low as possible.  It always comes down to the money.  That is probably why they have mandated why everyone has to have a covid test now that is not on their dime.  Increases control without adding to the bottom line.  

[orville99]

22 minutes ago, bigdaddyyo said:

So either the cruise lines require everyone to get travel insurance

RCL currently has this policy in place for anyone who is either unvaccinated or who does not present their vaccination records.

[ArthurUSCG]

1 hour ago, alfaeric said:

I wonder how long it will take to implement?  As in it being hard to enforce any new requirements for X number of weeks.  Since the full vaccine coverage happens 2 weeks after last (if only) dose- it *seems* that the fastest they can change the rules and not make it impossible for reservation holders to change would be 4 weeks.

 

The second thing- how do you get a good proof?  Seeing news stories that some are paying money to have forged cards (for a free vaccine,...) suggests that something other than the basic piece of paper may be needed.

Every state has a record of vaccination system, it is required for the state to receive federal reimbursement. Most states have a way for hospitals and physicians offices to query the status of all of your vaccinations. All it would take is to modify the approved list to include a medical professional employed by the cruise line, and then the cruise line would then query the state where the vaccination took place.

[orville99]

9 minutes ago, ArthurUSCG said:

All it would take is to modify the approved list to include a medical professional employed by the cruise line, and then the cruise line would then query the state where the vaccination took place.

It is my understanding from what is stated on the company websites is that they will indeed query those databases whenever they get a positive case on board. Celebrity (if I remember correctly) is doing random queries on the vaccination documents being provided when people board their ships.

[ArthurUSCG]

5 minutes ago, orville99 said:

It is my understanding from what is stated on the company websites is that they will indeed query those databases whenever they get a positive case on board. Celebrity (if I remember correctly) is doing random queries on the vaccination documents being provided when people board their ships.

Most states require the person to be under the care of a physician before they are allowed to query or access the records. So, once you are sick or test positive, then you are under the care of the shipboard physician.

Edited August 11, 2021 by ArthurUSCG

[ONECRUISER]

On 8/9/2021 at 6:46 AM, shutterbug63 said:

This is absolutely fabulous news and the right decision as far as I'm concerned.  I hope this lawsuit is successful and sets a precedent.  I'd sure feel a lot safer sailing on Oasis in January if it was a requirement. If not I may be jumping ship to NCL if they sail 100% vaxxed.

"Because NCL is requiring 100% vaccination for all passengers, it is effectively prohibiting children younger than 12 from sailing on NCL ships because they are currently unable to receive the vaccine. However, it has said it will allow exceptions for certain medical or religious reasons"

[jrapps]

3 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

"Because NCL is requiring 100% vaccination for all passengers, it is effectively prohibiting children younger than 12 from sailing on NCL ships because they are currently unable to receive the vaccine. However, it has said it will allow exceptions for certain medical or religious reasons"

I'm waiting to hear reports on how this pans out in real life. They can't claim the ship is 100% vaccinated if they allow exceptions. Is there a percentage cap on the exceptions?

 

I have a feeling that line was added by lawyers, but they haven't had to test the theory yet.

[ONECRUISER]

9 minutes ago, jrapps said:

I'm waiting to hear reports on how this pans out in real life. They can't claim the ship is 100% vaccinated if they allow exceptions. Is there a percentage cap on the exceptions?

 

I have a feeling that line was added by lawyers, but they haven't had to test the theory yet.

Agree, interesting see if allowed, easy or hard to get exception. Lawsuits, Judges, never know what will happen. Though that was said among multiple Cruise Lines when Cruising was going start again. "100% Vax", then what they meant was 95%, or 100% Crew plus 90% Passengers = 95%. Know multiple people inc my little Sister that can't receive Vax, though she doesn't Cruise. Also was to be on NCL Panama Canal Cruise with my under 12yr old Grand Daughter, canceled while ago.

Edited August 11, 2021 by ONECRUISER

[TytalusWarden]

2 hours ago, alfaeric said:

I wonder how long it will take to implement?  As in it being hard to enforce any new requirements for X number of weeks.  Since the full vaccine coverage happens 2 weeks after last (if only) dose- it *seems* that the fastest they can change the rules and not make it impossible for reservation holders to change would be 4 weeks.

 

The second thing- how do you get a good proof?  Seeing news stories that some are paying money to have forged cards (for a free vaccine,...) suggests that something other than the basic piece of paper may be needed.

Outside of the U.S. this is taken care of with a phone app/online code that can be typed in to prove those kinds of details.

 

The U.S. doesn't have a single centralized database of medical information, so a clearinghouse of sorts would need to be developed for vaccinations, and you could volunteer to provide that information and give them permission to investigate your claims (access to medical records, etc.)  Whether a cruise line would go to that extreme I don't know--fake cards aren't THAT prevalent, and anyone found faking that information if they end up with a disease they claimed to be vaccinated for could involve stiff penalties if the cruise lines chose to go the "threaten instead of verify" direction.

 

Just remember:  some people aren't deterred from committing random acts of homicide because they are morally just, they are deterred because of the consequences.  😄  Cruising could end up the same way--sign a document making a claim, don't sign it if the potential consequences outweigh lying on the document and potentially getting caught.

Edited August 11, 2021 by TytalusWarden

[jrapps]

4 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

Agree, interesting see if allowed, easy or hard to get exception. Lawsuits, Judges, never know what will happen. Though that was said among multiple Cruise Lines when Cruising was going start again. "100% Vax", then what they meant was 95%, or 100% Crew plus 90% Passengers = 95%. Know multiple people inc my little Sister that can't receive Vax, though she doesn't Cruise. Also was to be on NCL Panama Canal Cruise with my under 12yr old Grand Daughter, canceled while ago.

I think they are going to stick to a true 100% thru Oct 31st like they claimed. In Nov they may extend that a month or 2, or tweak it to 100% vax for "eligible", especially if the 5-11 age group gets approved for a vaccine around that time. All assuming of course that the injunction holds.

[Babr]

1 hour ago, bigdaddyyo said:

I mean at this point Royal is basically showcasing the fact that they will fly you home.  Not sure if that is just to give some folks a peace of mind that they will be taken care of OR if Royal really plans on doing this all the time.  I don't see them being able to afford to fly them home every time.  I think if that is what they want to happen to get the person off the boat, then they will start requiring everyone to have travel insurance so they fly home on their own dime and not Royal's.

No, the cruise lines do not intend to do this forever. The Covid assistance plans that I am aware of expire by the end of the year or sooner. Those agreements were put in place with the various ports before cruising restarted. I’m guessing people were flown home from Alaska and the Bahamas because those ports have limited medical facilities and would want people who test positive to be taken elsewhere to quarantine or receive medical treatment if they develop symptoms.

 

What happens when those agreements expire remains to be seen. There are still guidelines in place for dealing with positive cases; but when the cruise line assistance runs out, people need to be prepared for any expenses related to a positive test, including quarantine and medical if necessary.

 

Insurance will not pay for private air transport unless certain conditions are met. Testing positive alone does not qualify. Nor can you fly commercially from a foreign port if you are positive.

 

If you are cruising by Oct. 31 on Royal, the plan remains in place. After that, think about how you’d deal with a positive test.

 

 

[ONECRUISER]

16 minutes ago, TytalusWarden said:

Outside of the U.S. this is taken care of with a phone app/online code that can be typed in to prove those kinds of details. The U.S. doesn't have a single centralized database of medical information, so a clearinghouse of sorts would need to be developed for vaccinations, and you could volunteer to provide that information and give them permission to investigate your claims (access to medical records, etc.) 

 

 

That ain't going happen in US

[TytalusWarden]

Just now, ONECRUISER said:

That ain't going happen in US

 

I wouldn't expect it to happen at the Federal level, but I could see the cruise lines working with a 3rd party company.  In terms of complexity it isn't much more difficult than background check services, which are readily available.  When applying for certain jobs you typically have to approve a background check as a condition of employment... cruising could be the same thing.

 

"We here at [cruise company name] have partnered with Vaccination Background Check Solutions Inc., an independent company.  To be eligible to be considered vaccinated on our ships you must sign up for the VBCS Silver Package for $49.99 and provide us the Vaccination Verification Code at [cruise company website link] at least 48 hours before your arrival at the port..."

 

You can say it won't happen, but background checks also didn't happen for a long time.  As data becomes easier to obtain more services surrounding that data will be created to turn the data into useful information.

[jrapps]

2 minutes ago, TytalusWarden said:

 

I wouldn't expect it to happen at the Federal level, but I could see the cruise lines working with a 3rd party company.  In terms of complexity it isn't much more difficult than background check services, which are readily available.  When applying for certain jobs you typically have to approve a background check as a condition of employment... cruising could be the same thing.

 

"We here at [cruise company name] have partnered with Vaccination Background Check Solutions Inc., an independent company.  To be eligible to be considered vaccinated on our ships you must sign up for the VBCS Silver Package for $49.99 and provide us the Vaccination Verification Code at [cruise company website link] at least 48 hours before your arrival at the port..."

 

You can say it won't happen, but background checks also didn't happen for a long time.  As data becomes easier to obtain more services surrounding that data will be created to turn the data into useful information.

We are on Disney Cruise lines next month. Disney has done exactly this, instead of looking a the vaccination card themselves, they contracted with Inspire Diagnostics. We have to create an account on their site and upload our card in advance. After a few days, our status changed from Pending to Clear.

 

I can totally believe that during those few days, they were cross referencing the data from my card to some database. Or at least believe that if they don't do it today, they are building to that point. Cruise line's don't have to reinvent the wheel here, just hire a company that has already done the integration work.

[TytalusWarden]

4 minutes ago, jrapps said:

We are on Disney Cruise lines next month. Disney has done exactly this, instead of looking a the vaccination card themselves, they contracted with Inspire Diagnostics. We have to create an account on their site and upload our card in advance. After a few days, our status changed from Pending to Clear.

 

I can totally believe that during those few days, they were cross referencing the data from my card to some database. Or at least believe that if they don't do it today, they are building to that point. Cruise line's don't have to reinvent the wheel here, just hire a company that has already done the integration work.

 

I wasn't aware that Disney had done such a thing, but I'm also not surprised.  It's like I said in my last response--the data is available, companies can require it (assuming there's no law preventing them from requiring it), and you will provide it if you want to enjoy the service they are offering.  Working with a 3rd party will be marketed as a convenience for the consumer, since the 3rd party theoretically could be used in a variety of locations, saving time/effort having to upload and document whatever is needed.

 

The only way this doesn't happen is if most passengers decide they don't want to provide this information in this way.  For most Americans who are fully vaccinated they have zero issues letting others know about it, much in the same way Americans who are anti-vax have zero issues letting others know about it.  If the target demographic is willing to provide the information, and the cruise line feels it is in their best interest to have the info, then why wouldn't they collect it?

[jrapps]

2 minutes ago, TytalusWarden said:

 

I wasn't aware that Disney had done such a thing, but I'm also not surprised.  It's like I said in my last response--the data is available, companies can require it (assuming there's no law preventing them from requiring it), and you will provide it if you want to enjoy the service they are offering.  Working with a 3rd party will be marketed as a convenience for the consumer, since the 3rd party theoretically could be used in a variety of locations, saving time/effort having to upload and document whatever is needed.

 

The only way this doesn't happen is if most passengers decide they don't want to provide this information in this way.  For most Americans who are fully vaccinated they have zero issues letting others know about it, much in the same way Americans who are anti-vax have zero issues letting others know about it.  If the target demographic is willing to provide the information, and the cruise line feels it is in their best interest to have the info, then why wouldn't they collect it?

Just to clarify, for Disney Cruise Lines, EVERYONE must create an account on the Inspire site. You then either choose to upload vaccine card, or upload your PCR test result taken 5 days before the cruise. You must have one of those to be clear to sail. This also let's Disney off the hook from validating the PCR test results, those are handled by the 3rd party as well.

 

For all the talk about faking CDC cards, I'm surprised no one even thought if people are faking their PCR test results too. Would be so much easier than faking the card.

[Biker19]

3 minutes ago, jrapps said:

Would be so much easier than faking the card.

Right, all one needs to do is modify the date of some past test.

 

Biker, who wonders which fake is worse: card or test.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Biker19

[ArthurUSCG]

45 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

That ain't going happen in US

Agreed and it doesn't need to happen since all 56 states and territories already have the databases set up, it wouldn't be hard to query all 56 at one time.