Airline Code Shares

[dwlmg]

Our window to book flights with Viking Air Plus (310 days prior to our return flight) is approaching and we are looking at our options. KLM offers the applicable dates on their website. Our cruise is Viking Homelands departing Stockholm on 10 Sep 2022. We will be flying from Dulles (IAD) to Stockholm (ARN) in Business Class. We would like to fly KLM and they offer a nice itinerary. Delta offers code share (DL flight numbers) flights operated by KLM for the same itinerary. I am inclined to book the flights using the Delta code shared flights but I wonder if  we would still qualify for the Delft houses offered by KLM for flying business class. I have a fair number of skymiles with Delta and I wonder if booking the Delta flights over KLM would have an impact there.

[KBs mum]

We think that passengers who book via Delta won't get the KLM offer, and vice versa, as both airlines codeshare with other airlines as well as each other. 

 

What might make a difference is who is actually operating the flight. Both airlines are part of the same alliance group, the flight may be operated by a third party, so if you book with delta you might get a discount on the delft houses, or if booking with KLM be able to use some of your Delta points. 

 

Best thing is to phone each and ask nicely

Edited October 4, 2021 by KBs mum

[Selion]

I think as long as the flights are operated by KLM, you'll receive those houses.

 

https://www.klm.us/information/houses

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Selion

[FlyerTalker]

You can't buy the houses from KLM - they are a gift to business class passengers.  One per person.

 

You can find a market for them on Ebay.

 

As for most of what KBs mum said -- I have no idea what she's talking about.  

 

As for booking DL vs KL -- simple pro tip:  Unless there is a significant price differential, it is always more beneficial to purchase your ticket from the operating carrier.

 

As for your SkyMiles -- if you have SkyTeam elite status, it gives you benefits on both DL and KL.  As for your number of SkyPesos, that doesn't matter.

[KBs mum]

Those houses are for sale in so many places, didn't occur to me that KLM don't sell them as well as giving them away. That being so, book through whoever gives you the best price via your points. You can then buy whichever of the houses you want online, if for some reason you don't get given one, and save money. 

I have a vague recollection of a shop in Amsterdam that was full of them.

Flying out of Heathrow 3 and 4  airline codeshares are common, I once saw one on the departure board that had 6. If the planned aircraft is not available for some reason then a replacement from one of the other airlines or a generic alliance liveried one is not unusual. If this happens any giveaways are only given to passengers who booked through the relevant airline. 

 

Last time BA had industrial action some of their codeshares were operated by Qatar (they are both part of IAG) even though Qatar were not listed on the flight details on the departure board. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by KBs mum

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Those houses are for sale in so many places, didn't occur to me that KLM don't sell them as well as giving them away. That being so, book through whoever gives you the best price via your points. You can then buy whichever of the houses you want online, if for some reason you don't get given one, and save money. 

I have a vague recollection of a shop in Amsterdam that was full of them.

Flying out of Heathrow 3 and 4  airline codeshares are common, I once saw one on the departure board that had 6. If the planned aircraft is not available for some reason then a replacement from one of the other airlines or a generic alliance liveried one is not unusual. If this happens any giveaways are only given to passengers who booked through the relevant airline. 

 

Last time BA had industrial action some of their codeshares were operated by Qatar (they are both part of IAG) even though Qatar were not listed on the flight details on the departure board. 

 

When we flew with Qatar Airways they were wholly owned by the Qatar Govt and I don't believe that has changed.

 

However, I do recall reading earlier this year that Qatar purchased a substantial number of IAG shares and are now the largest shareholder. Qatar Airways and BA are part of the OneWorld Alliance.

[KBs mum]

41 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

When we flew with Qatar Airways they were wholly owned by the Qatar Govt and I don't believe that has changed.

 

However, I do recall reading earlier this year that Qatar purchased a substantial number of IAG shares and are now the largest shareholder. Qatar Airways and BA are part of the OneWorld Alliance.

I was going off what I was told by BA crew at the time, when we asked how come there were Qatar aircraft on the Heathrow T5 (usually exclusively BA) short haul stands.

We thought they might have had minority shares of each other or Qatari government ownership of both.

 

I'm not sure of the legalities, but I think that as there was industrial action in progress, BA were only able to source replacement crew/aircraft from within the company, which would be anything IAG

 

The general consensus of opinion was that the strike had greatly improved customer service

Edited October 6, 2021 by KBs mum

[Heidi13]

12 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

I was going off what I was told by BA crew at the time, when we asked how come there were Qatar aircraft on the Heathrow T5 (usually exclusively BA) short haul stands.

We thought they might have had minority shares of each other or Qatari government ownership of both.

 

I'm not sure of the legal ties, but I think that as there was industrial action in progress, BA were only able to source replacement crew/aircraft from within the company, which would be anything IAG

 

The general consensus of opinion was that the strike had greatly improved customer service

 

While not overly common, I have seen partner airlines supply replacement aircraft. Back in the days of Canadian Pacific Airlines, which was also a member of OneWorld, when the BA aircraft broke down, if CP Air had an aircraft available, they supplied an aircraft for the evening flight out of Vancouver. I experienced that situation once and on another night that BA cancelled the YVR-LHR flight, they moved everyone onto the CP Air flight, which departed about the same time and had space.

 

Just checked and Qatar Airlines owns about 25% of International Air Group (IAG), which was formed as a merger of BA and Iberia and subsequently purchased BMI, Air Lingus and a couple of others.

[greydog]

Since topic title "airline code shares", here's my ques.  V Air+ booked my Prem-Econ on Finn Air, operated by Brit Air, from ATL to LHR connect to ATH.   Why not book directly with BA?  Had V Air hit a contract limit on seats with BA or they have a minimum seat quota with FA?  I'm learning BA has older-style P-E seats and seat selection delayed for giving priority to their miles club tiers.  Disclosure: V Air service terms shows airlines can restrict seat selection.

 

BTW: will it show in 'air' section of MVJ when air has been ticketed (get ticket #) or do I have to separately check the airline locator codes to see if ticketed. I'm 65 days out from trip.

Edited October 6, 2021 by greydog

[FlyerTalker]

27 minutes ago, greydog said:

Since topic title "airline code shares", here's my ques.  V Air+ booked my Prem-Econ on Finn Air, operated by Brit Air, from ATL to LHR connect to ATH.   Why not book directly with BA?  Had V Air hit a contract limit on seats with BA or they have a minimum seat quota with FA? 

 

Could be any number of reasons - all part of the opaque nature of cruiseline provided air.  Contract terms might be in play, or you got a ticket that was purchased on the spot market.  If your flight number begins with AY, it's a Finnair marketed flight.  Operationally, it is a British Airways flight.  Ticketwise, if the ticket number begins with 105, it is a Finnair-issued ticket.  If it begins with 125, it is a British Airways-issued ticket.

 

30 minutes ago, greydog said:

I'm learning BA has older-style P-E seats and seat selection delayed for giving priority to their miles club tiers.  Disclosure: V Air service terms shows airlines can restrict seat selection.

 

Standard BA procedures, whether on cruiseline tickets or ones purchased direct from BA.

 

31 minutes ago, greydog said:

BTW: will it show in 'air' section of MVJ when air has been ticketed (get ticket #) or do I have to separately check the airline locator codes to see if ticketed. I'm 65 days out from trip.

 

I would ALWAYS go directly to the airline website for air information.  Aside from any timing delays, you also have the issue of a middleman in the information flow.  

[KBs mum]

32 minutes ago, greydog said:

Since topic title "airline code shares", here's my ques.  V Air+ booked my Prem-Econ on Finn Air, operated by Brit Air, from ATL to LHR connect to ATH.   Why not book directly with BA?  Had V Air hit a contract limit on seats with BA or they have a minimum seat quota with FA?  I'm learning BA has older-style P-E seats and seat selection delayed for giving priority to their miles club tiers.  Disclosure: V Air service terms shows airlines can restrict seat selection.

 

BTW: will it show in 'air' section of MVJ when air has been ticketed (get ticket #) or do I have to separately check the airline locator codes to see if ticketed. I'm 65 days out from trip.

Can't help you regarding how viking air works, in the UK economy flights are automatically included, you then pay extra for business, there is a choice of a few flights. 

Codeshares are basically two (or more) airlines sharing a flight. They divide seat allocation amongst themselves, as usual a proportion of the ticket price is the cost of operating the flight. How they decide this is a mystery to us mere mortals.

Airlines do this to increase the amount of routes they can say they have, or if there is not enough demand for them to fill the flight themselves. 

I have not flown Finn Air, but on a long transatlantic on BA I wouldn't consider anything less than business (or as they call it, club)  especially if you are taller than five six. Even BA first is only an acceptable Business class on most airlines, and their customer service can go Awol. Seat allocation on BA depends on category booked and loyalty level, if you'r not top tier loyalty even a booked seat doesn't guarantee that's where you will be sitting. Think of it as a similar situation to  booking a guarantee cabin on viking then being able to book things so many days before sailing depending on which category you went for. 

That said, if the price is right and the route convenient I will tolerate them. 

 

 

[JeriGail]

2 hours ago, greydog said:

BTW: will it show in 'air' section of MVJ when air has been ticketed (get ticket #) or do I have to separately check the airline locator codes to see if ticketed. I'm 65 days out from trip.

Mine showed as ticketed on MVJ first and then on the airlines site.

[dwlmg]

As to the original issue. I am currently in an extended chat session with KLM. Their last response was only KLM operated flights, intercontinental, and business class. No direct answer on booking a Delta code share operated by KLM. I asked in response if their definition of operated by KLM incudes ticketed by KLM. The ball is in their court. The driver for all of this is that I have a skymiles account with Delta. As far as I can tell, from a Delta skymiles perspective, it is better to fly a Delta code share than a skyteam partner. I realize the houses are not all that expensive on ebay but the best of all possible solutions is book Delta and get the house from KLM.

I like code shares. We had an Alaska cruise booked. Our agent found an Alaska Air flight that left Alaska at a reasonable time of day. Viking Air does not contract with Alaska Air but they did book the flight as an American Airlines flight operated by Alaska Air. Alas Covid cancelled the cruise.

[FlyerTalker]

21 minutes ago, dwlmg said:

As to the original issue. I am currently in an extended chat session with KLM. Their last response was only KLM operated flights, intercontinental, and business class. No direct answer on booking a Delta code share operated by KLM. 

 

The issue is that you are inserting a middleman into the equation by trying to utilize Viking air.  And your discussions with KLM are basically nil, since you are going to be bound by the terms and conditions set by Viking in using their services.

 

When you say "only KLM operated" - what are you talking about?  The damned houses?

 

As for booking a DL codeshare on KL metal -- why would you expect KL to sell you a DL marketed ticket?  They sell KL issued tickets.  Only.  Want the DL codeshare (for whatever reason)?  You would buy it from DL.

 

 

21 minutes ago, dwlmg said:

I asked in response if their definition of operated by KLM incudes ticketed by KLM. The ball is in their court.

 

"Operated by KLM" means just that.  The flight is on a KLM aircraft, flown by KLM crew.  "Ticketed by" means who issued the tickets and has NOTHING to do with "operated".

 

21 minutes ago, dwlmg said:

The driver for all of this is that I have a skymiles account with Delta. As far as I can tell, from a Delta skymiles perspective, it is better to fly a Delta code share than a skyteam partner.

 

See this webpage:  https://www.delta.com/us/en/skymiles/how-to-earn-miles/airline-partners

 

And you keep mixing up terms with code share and partner and the like.  There are specific terms that govern all of this:  operated and marketed are ones that matter, but you keep mixing things up in your description.  And it seems you are most concerned about earning SkyPesos.  Is that your driving factor?  Use the chart noted in the page above and figure out your earning.

 

21 minutes ago, dwlmg said:

I realize the houses are not all that expensive on ebay but the best of all possible solutions is book Delta and get the house from KLM.

 

 

For the last time....it doesn't matter who sells the ticket.  If you are flying in business class on a long-haul international KL flight, you get a house.  Personally, I'd be much more concerned about the onboard experience than the damned house -- KL is probably the worst of the SkyTeam options across the Atlantic from that perspective.

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by FlyerTalker

[FlyerTalker]

21 minutes ago, dwlmg said:

I like code shares. We had an Alaska cruise booked. Our agent found an Alaska Air flight that left Alaska at a reasonable time of day. Viking Air does not contract with Alaska Air but they did book the flight as an American Airlines flight operated by Alaska Air. Alas Covid cancelled the cruise.

 

 

Again, it's not a matter of codeshares -- it's the Viking aspect that came into play.  And you could have bought that ticket yourself.

[soundcruiser]

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Seat allocation depends on category booked and loyalty level, if you're not top tier loyalty even a booked seat doesn't guarantee that's where you'll be sitting.

 

 

  Is this just in the case of using Viking Air, or equally true if you book on your own and pay to select a seat on BA in advance? I know that all airlines sometimes have to move your selected seat due to equipment change or some other factor, but I have thought that if you pay BA to select a seat in advance, that's as guaranteed as you can get, relatively speaking.

[KBs mum]

6 hours ago, soundcruiser said:

  Is this just in the case of using Viking Air, or equally true if you book on your own and pay to select a seat on BA in advance? I know that all airlines sometimes have to move your selected seat due to equipment change or some other factor, but I have thought that if you pay BA to select a seat in advance, that's as guaranteed as you can get, relatively speaking.

We book direct long haul and direct and via Viking short haul. Doesn't seem to make any difference, nor does booking via a travel agent. Haven't tried paying extra, seat booking is included in business. 

It's their sub par cabins and before boarding customer service that let them down, once you'r on board their maintenance, flight and cabin crews are good. 

[KBs mum]

7 hours ago, dwlmg said:

As to the original issue. I am currently in an extended chat session with KLM. Their last response was only KLM operated flights, intercontinental, and business class. No direct answer on booking a Delta code share operated by KLM. I asked in response if their definition of operated by KLM incudes ticketed by KLM. The ball is in their court. The driver for all of this is that I have a skymiles account with Delta. As far as I can tell, from a Delta skymiles perspective, it is better to fly a Delta code share than a skyteam partner. I realize the houses are not all that expensive on ebay but the best of all possible solutions is book Delta and get the house from KLM.

I like code shares. We had an Alaska cruise booked. Our agent found an Alaska Air flight that left Alaska at a reasonable time of day. Viking Air does not contract with Alaska Air but they did book the flight as an American Airlines flight operated by Alaska Air. Alas Covid cancelled the cruise.

Booked via Delta to best use your points and operated by KLM for the house is what is most likely to happen, and I agree with you the best option. 

 

The only caveat is that the only way to  be sure of the house is to book with KLM in case their aircraft is unavailable. It's one of those intangible factors that is about what it's worth to you, rather than financially. 

 

I've nothing against codeshares, and the alliances, they add interest to proceedings. Wouldn't be surprised to find your flight is also codeshared with SAS.

A few years back we were meant to be on a non codeshare United London to DC flight that was cancelled, pessengers were transfered onto Aer Lingus later that day. After that, other substitutions and seeing Qatar doing European short haul we do our best to have a positive attitude and just go with the flow. 

[uktog]

I must be the only one who wishes her flights were BA rather than KLM. But I am a BA gold with lots of work flights under my belt.  We will be flying economy as we don’t go forward prices for flights under five hours.  KLM from our local airport are really unreliable on connection times (I’m silver with them btw), use cramped planes and have more frequent cancellations due to maintenance. They are also not well timed, usually very very early starts (never advised in winter!) and either sprint tight connections or over long layover.  We will have to spend the night at an airport hotel and also hang around At Schipol for over 3 hours that was the best Viking could offer - UK pricing means booking myself isn’t a good move financially.   I’d rather fly through Heathrow as I’ve much more contingency in back up flights and for me the connection is far simpler than Schipol. 
 

I’m not saying this to knock others views, just adding a different perspective.  

[KBs mum]

28 minutes ago, uktog said:

I must be the only one who wishes her flights were BA rather than KLM. But I am a BA gold with lots of work flights under my belt.  We will be flying economy as we don’t go forward prices for flights under five hours.  KLM from our local airport are really unreliable on connection times (I’m silver with them btw), use cramped planes and have more frequent cancellations due to maintenance. They are also not well timed, usually very very early starts (never advised in winter!) and either sprint tight connections or over long layover.  We will have to spend the night at an airport hotel and also hang around At Schipol for over 3 hours that was the best Viking could offer - UK pricing means booking myself isn’t a good move financially.   I’d rather fly through Heathrow as I’ve much more contingency in back up flights and for me the connection is far simpler than Schipol. 
 

I’m not saying this to knock others views, just adding a different perspective.  

I'm with you on the convenience factor of BA, our nearest airport is Heathrow and we allways aim to fly direct, which often makes BA worth putting up with. 

 

[dwlmg]

So, twelve hours after my last post in the KLM chat session, they responded that the houses only go to KLM passengers and if I book with Delta and ride on a blue airplane with 3 letters on the tail, I will not be a KLM passenger and be entitled to receive a house. I was then asked to rate their social media service. I supported my one star rating with a notation that a 12 hour response time in a chat session is all I need to say.

[Heidi13]

5 hours ago, uktog said:

I must be the only one who wishes her flights were BA rather than KLM. But I am a BA gold with lots of work flights under my belt.  We will be flying economy as we don’t go forward prices for flights under five hours.  KLM from our local airport are really unreliable on connection times (I’m silver with them btw), use cramped planes and have more frequent cancellations due to maintenance. They are also not well timed, usually very very early starts (never advised in winter!) and either sprint tight connections or over long layover.  We will have to spend the night at an airport hotel and also hang around At Schipol for over 3 hours that was the best Viking could offer - UK pricing means booking myself isn’t a good move financially.   I’d rather fly through Heathrow as I’ve much more contingency in back up flights and for me the connection is far simpler than Schipol. 
 

I’m not saying this to knock others views, just adding a different perspective.  

 

We were BA Silver pre-pandemic and always use BA between Vancouver & Edinburgh and for RTW flights. Although my parents liked the KLM option via Schipol, I never liked those flight options.

 

In our experience,  BA are certainly a step down from Qatar, but we did find the First Cabin on the A-380 to be very comfortable, vastly superior to those on the older B-747's. If possible, we would schedule the flights when the A-380's were operating to/from Vancouver. They apparently have replaced all the B-747's, and upgraded the Business cabins on the new aircraft. Last I checked they plan to use A-350's on the Vancouver flights next year, so hopefully those have the new Business Class similar to the A-380's.

 

Provided all flights use T5, we also prefer to fly through Heathrow. At the end of the 22/23 WC and UK & Scandinavia cruise, we will request BA from Stockholm to LHR and then to YVR.

[uktog]

22 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

We were BA Silver pre-pandemic and always use BA between Vancouver & Edinburgh and for RTW flights. Although my parents liked the KLM option via Schipol, I never liked those flight options.

 

In our experience,  BA are certainly a step down from Qatar, but we did find the First Cabin on the A-380 to be very comfortable, vastly superior to those on the older B-747's. If possible, we would schedule the flights when the A-380's were operating to/from Vancouver. They apparently have replaced all the B-747's, and upgraded the Business cabins on the new aircraft. Last I checked they plan to use A-350's on the Vancouver flights next year, so hopefully those have the new Business Class similar to the A-380's.

 

Provided all flights use T5, we also prefer to fly through Heathrow. At the end of the 22/23 WC and UK & Scandinavia cruise, we will request BA from Stockholm to LHR and then to YVR.

Your right no way does BA compare to Qatar, always try and use them when going East