Prepaid Gratuities VS Prepaid Service Charges

[phillygwm]

8 hours ago, Two Wheels Only said:

...and that increase would be an amount that is more than the current DSC. 

Well, NCL changes their fares for lots of reasons, the true reasons are mostly not disclosed to the public.  So if DSC went away tomorrow and base fare increased by $10 or $20 per day rather than the precise amount, I wouldn't be surprised.  Base fare is what the market will bear and is the easiest way to compare apples to apples.  At the end of the day, if a traveler can look at Carnival, RCCL, NCL, etc. and say this mostly identical itinerary costs more or less on a given line, that's good for competition.  Ancillary charges muddy things and confuse travelers who might be unfamiliar with cruising.

[Oakman58]

“if everyone opted out of DSC it would force the cruise lines to increase their fares” is another silly statement.  How would you go about getting everyone to opt out?  Organize other like-minded people to stand at every cruise port by every ship with a sign asking people not to pay the additional charge?  Or perhaps you would organize a social media campaign against almost all cruise lines.  Every major cruise line has a similar daily charge.

 

The fact is if the DSC money dried up the basic fare would increase in which case you would still be paying that same money for the cruise plus you would lose the opportunity to adjust DSC.

 

The best course of action is to pre-pay the DSC and go on your cruise and enjoy yourself and enjoy how attentive and friendly the crew is to you.  And for goodness sake, quit trying to screw hard working people out of the money they deserve.

[billslowsky]

1 minute ago, Oakman58 said:

“if everyone opted out of DSC it would force the cruise lines to increase their fares” is another silly statement.  How would you go about getting everyone to opt out?  Organize other like-minded people to stand at every cruise port by every ship with a sign asking people not to pay the additional charge?  Or perhaps you would organize a social media campaign against almost all cruise lines.  Every major cruise line has a similar daily charge.

 

The fact is if the DSC money dried up the basic fare would increase in which case you would still be paying that same money for the cruise plus you would lose the opportunity to adjust DSC.

 

The best course of action is to pre-pay the DSC and go on your cruise and enjoy yourself and enjoy how attentive and friendly the crew is to you.  And for goodness sake, quit trying to screw hard working people out of the money they deserve.

 

His statement is not silly.  The cruise line hides its actual costs and doesn't guarantee wages to its workers.  The typical passenger does not get transparent information as to how much of the fare or DSC is being paid to anyone.  Not even resembling transparent.

 

"quit trying to screw hard working people out of the money they deserve."

 

Tell that to the corporation.  They put their workers in this financial arrangement.

 

[Two Wheels Only]

28 minutes ago, phillygwm said:

  So if DSC went away tomorrow and base fare increased by $10 or $20 per day rather than the precise amount, I wouldn't be surprised. 

 

But would you be happy? If the DSC went away tomorrow but prices jumped $200pp for a 7 night cruise, would people who remove the DSC still "tip with cash"? 

 

Some people want the total price given on the website. In a perfect world, that would make the most sense. However, anyone who can book a cruise can see/figure out what the total price is. Unfortunately, some people get too excited when booking and just zip right through to the payment screen then complain that the total is more than expected.

[chengkp75]

48 minutes ago, billslowsky said:

 

His statement is not silly.  The cruise line hides its actual costs and doesn't guarantee wages to its workers.  The typical passenger does not get transparent information as to how much of the fare or DSC is being paid to anyone.  Not even resembling transparent.

 

"quit trying to screw hard working people out of the money they deserve."

 

Tell that to the corporation.  They put their workers in this financial arrangement.

 

Well,  there is some guaranteed wage and some variable. Does a resort that charges a DSC provide you with a transparent report on how the staff are paid?

[billslowsky]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Well,  there is some guaranteed wage and some variable. Does a resort that charges a DSC provide you with a transparent report on how the staff are paid?

Nope, no service industry does, and I don't consider the level that I choose to tip any of them "screwing them out of the money they deserve".

[Oakman58]

I really don’t understand people not wanting to pay the DSC.  All major cruise lines that I know of charge a service fee and some cruise lines don’t allow you to adjust it.  Of course there are some cruise lines that include the service charge in their fares but those are usually 2, 3, or even 4 times more expensive.  Just pay the service charge and quit looking for excuses to cheap out.

[NikiPinkston]

47 minutes ago, Oakman58 said:

I really don’t understand people not wanting to pay the DSC.  All major cruise lines that I know of charge a service fee and some cruise lines don’t allow you to adjust it.  Of course there are some cruise lines that include the service charge in their fares but those are usually 2, 3, or even 4 times more expensive.  Just pay the service charge and quit looking for excuses to cheap out.

Agree!  Like it or not, a lot of people in the service industry, including crew members, rely on tips to supplement their income.  I believe that if you can afford to cruise, you can surely afford to pay the service charge.  And tip your room steward & whomever you wish on top of that!  We've cruised with all-inclusive lines that don't charge a DSC & they are substantially more expensive.

Edited October 9, 2021 by NikiPinkston

[ChiefMateJRK]

I think the current system is great.  I always pay the DSC and generally a small amount of additional tips.  It makes my cruise more fun.

[MoCruiseFan]

6 hours ago, billslowsky said:

Nope, no service industry does, and I don't consider the level that I choose to tip any of them "screwing them out of the money they deserve".

 

 

Actually in the States, if a tipped employee does not earn enough tip to bring them up to the standard minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference.

[MoCruiseFan]

The segregation of the DSC is merely an internal accounting issue.  it is noting to fret over even slightly.

[JYDCruise]

22 hours ago, mem50 said:

How do you know how hard someone behind the scenes is working?

Is this a serious question?? Dishwashers may well be the hardest working people in any restaurant, and those are the people being hurt by Sam Ting's "I give cash directly instead of the DSC" policy.

[JYDCruise]

8 hours ago, billslowsky said:

Nope, no service industry does, and I don't consider the level that I choose to tip any of them "screwing them out of the money they deserve".

Land-based restaurants "tip out" - some of the money you give the servers goes to the back-of-house staff, food runners, bussers, etc. I doubt that happens on cruises, so yes, by opting out of the DSC and giving all of your tips to the servers, bartenders, etc. you are, in fact, screwing some of the crew out of money they would have otherwise gotten. And it's for no other reason than they aren't visible to you or engaging you in conversation.

Edited October 9, 2021 by JYDCruise

[billslowsky]

1 hour ago, JYDCruise said:

Land-based restaurants "tip out" - some of the money you give the servers goes to the back-of-house staff, food runners, bussers, etc. I doubt that happens on cruises, so yes, by opting out of the DSC and giving all of your tips to the servers, bartenders, etc. you are, in fact, screwing some of the crew out of money they would have otherwise gotten. And it's for no other reason than they aren't visible to you or engaging you in conversation.

Do you believe that the daily charge isn't set anticipating a certain participation rate by the passengers?

[mem50]

On 10/8/2021 at 9:02 PM, phillygwm said:

I agree that if everyone opted out of DSC it would force the cruise lines to increase their fares, which would be a more equitable solution.  But in the short term that would hurt many of the crew and most of us are unwilling to do that.  So people can choose to freeload.

Why say “freeload”?  The same amount of money it’s being given to those who directly serve us. They can choose to share it if they like. Because someone disagrees with you does not make them bad or a freeloader, nor does it make you noble to overtip or just go along with this extra charge -

just add 100$ to the fare. People need to know that they can remove this charge

[mem50]

2 hours ago, JYDCruise said:

Is this a serious question?? Dishwashers may well be the hardest working people in any restaurant, and those are the people being hurt by Sam Ting's "I give cash directly instead of the DSC" policy.

So why isn’t they cruise line paying them?

[BirdTravels]

2 hours ago, mem50 said:

So why isn’t they cruise line paying them?

 

16 hours ago, billslowsky said:

 

His statement is not silly.  The cruise line hides its actual costs and doesn't guarantee wages to its workers.  The typical passenger does not get transparent information as to how much of the fare or DSC is being paid to anyone.  Not even resembling transparent.

So when you go to your local diner for breakfast, are they transparent that they are paying their servers far less than minimum wage?

 

In our area, the minimum wage is $15/hour. But, if you are in a service industry, employers are allowed to pay as little as $5/hour. And the first $10/hour in tips (earned a dollar at a time or a few cents at a time depending on what people leave) goes to getting those server to a minimum wage? That's the way it works in the good 'ole USA today. But, on the ship, those servers, dishwashers, cooks have to work morning, noon, and night 7-days a week waiting on people who would remove their DSC to save a buck, using all kinds of excuses, rationalizing that what they are doing is fair. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by BirdTravels

[chengkp75]

18 hours ago, billslowsky said:

Nope, no service industry does, and I don't consider the level that I choose to tip any of them "screwing them out of the money they deserve".

Again, I'm not talking about "tips" or how much you "tip".  You were talking about "transparency" in Daily Service Charge, and that is what I questioned you about.  Most land resorts charge a DSC, which is neither adjustable nor removable, so do you question what that goes for, or who gets this?   The DSC on cruise ships is not a "tip" or "gratuity", it is a DSC.

8 hours ago, billslowsky said:

Do you believe that the daily charge isn't set anticipating a certain participation rate by the passengers?

No, its not.  Under international convention, every seafarer is guaranteed a minimum wage, of $641 per month.  Each crew member on a cruise ship signs a contract that clearly states that their compensation will be a blend of guaranteed salary and DSC contribution, depending on their position.  The average cabin steward will make about $1400/month, of which almost nothing is guaranteed salary (usually around $200/month), and the balance being DSC.  If the DSC is adjusted or removed by a passenger, everyone in the pool loses a little money.  The more DSC removed, the more each crew loses.  Only when the DSC contribution falls to where the minimum wage of $641 is not being met, does the cruise line have to step in and make up the difference to reach the $641 minimum.

[vswan]

I have always had a hard time with tipping making up a persons salary - on land or sea. I am really bothered by the resort fees - just add it to the price of the room if I have to pay it. Having said that, three of four members of our household had at times worked jobs where tips were a big portion of their compensation. Not fair in my opinion, just the way it works at this point.

 

Since getting back out and about I find myself being a much more generous tipper. If I can afford to go out to a restaurant, I can afford an extra generous tip to the server in these times. In addition to not working for a while, they are having to deal with some unruly customers at this point. I am just glad that someone in willing to work in the places I want to go for leisure at this point. With so many Now Hiring signs in windows for these low paying jobs I'm willing to help raise their salary a little.

[billslowsky]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

No, its not.  Under international convention, every seafarer is guaranteed a minimum wage, of $641 per month.  Each crew member on a cruise ship signs a contract that clearly states that their compensation will be a blend of guaranteed salary and DSC contribution, depending on their position.  The average cabin steward will make about $1400/month, of which almost nothing is guaranteed salary (usually around $200/month), and the balance being DSC.  If the DSC is adjusted or removed by a passenger, everyone in the pool loses a little money.  The more DSC removed, the more each crew loses.  Only when the DSC contribution falls to where the minimum wage of $641 is not being met, does the cruise line have to step in and make up the difference to reach the $641 minimum.

In order to get the proper funding for that minimum the cruise line must anticipate the revenue that will come in from passengers or face losses.  Therefore they must increase the charge to more than simply the amount guaranteed divided by the number of passengers.

 

I don't think anyone can guarantee that in situations where more passengers pay the DSC than modelled for that this excess goes 100% to the crew.  However, if there is a shortfall, the cruise line must pay the difference.  

[JYDCruise]

14 hours ago, mem50 said:

Why say “freeload”?  The same amount of money it’s being given to those who directly serve us. They can choose to share it if they like. Because someone disagrees with you does not make them bad or a freeloader, nor does it make you noble to overtip or just go along with this extra charge -

just add 100$ to the fare. People need to know that they can remove this charge

Let me try this again - if you opt out of the DSC (your choice, of course) and instead give that amount directly to the crew with whom you have a couple of minutes of face time, in essence you are taking money from the dishwasher and putting it in the server's pocket. It really is that simple, and you're doing it not because the server works harder than the dishwasher, or that the server is more essential, but simply because they are visible to you . . . and, to be slightly less charitable, because you are visible to them.

 

 If you ever get to know someone who works, or has worked, the back of the house in a restaurant, it might change your perspective.

Edited October 10, 2021 by JYDCruise

[Outerdog]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The DSC on cruise ships is not a "tip" or "gratuity", it is a DSC.

 

NCL themselves have referred to the DSC as both of those things in their promotional materials.

 

[MoCruiseFan]

3 hours ago, vswan said:

I have always had a hard time with tipping making up a persons salary - on land or sea. I am really bothered by the resort fees - just add it to the price of the room if I have to pay it. Having said that, three of four members of our household had at times worked jobs where tips were a big portion of their compensation. Not fair in my opinion, just the way it works at this point.

 

Since getting back out and about I find myself being a much more generous tipper. If I can afford to go out to a restaurant, I can afford an extra generous tip to the server in these times. In addition to not working for a while, they are having to deal with some unruly customers at this point. I am just glad that someone in willing to work in the places I want to go for leisure at this point. With so many Now Hiring signs in windows for these low paying jobs I'm willing to help raise their salary a little.

 

 

Again in the USA, tipped employees are subject to a lower minimum wage.  However if the tips any given employee gets do not bring them up to at least the non-tipped minimum wag, the employer has to make up the difference.  Essentially all employees are subject to the same minimum wage.

 

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, billslowsky said:

In order to get the proper funding for that minimum the cruise line must anticipate the revenue that will come in from passengers or face losses.  Therefore they must increase the charge to more than simply the amount guaranteed divided by the number of passengers.

 

I don't think anyone can guarantee that in situations where more passengers pay the DSC than modelled for that this excess goes 100% to the crew.  However, if there is a shortfall, the cruise line must pay the difference.  

 Yes, the amount of DSC is more than required to meet the minimum. But the amount that the DSC is set for the contracted maximum that the crew are to receive.  The contracted maximum wage is based on what the labor market will sustain.  The "model" is that if all passengers pay the DSC, then the crew receive 100% of the contracted salary.  Anything less than 100% results in crew getting less than the contracted maximum, and only when the percentage gets to below the guaranteed minimum, will the cruise line have to make up the difference.  So, a cabin steward could have his/her salary vary from about $1500/month, down to the $641/month minimum, depending on how many pay the DSC, and there is no change to the cruise line's payment to the crew.  So, the minimum only requires about 30% participation in the DSC.

 

Having worked for NCL, and knowing that NCL must meet US accounting methods for reporting earnings to the SEC, that DSC, being a "broken out" charge to the customer, must be used for the crew.

[billslowsky]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 The "model" is that if all passengers pay the DSC, then the crew receive 100% of the contracted salary.  Anything less than 100% results in crew getting less than the contracted maximum, and only when the percentage gets to below the guaranteed minimum, will the cruise line have to make up the difference.

Using the maximum amount possible - based on 100% of passengers paying the DSC - is rarely going to be achieved and both the cruise line and the workers know it.  A benchmark based on the normal paying patterns of passengers is a more reasonable analysis.  Especially as long as the cruise line doesn't require the payment.