Opinions please on the legality of P&O's T&Cs

[MX-Drew]

I'm looking for, preferably some with legal experience to help.

 

I booked a cruise back in April 21 and I was not sure 100% I would be free on those dates but I was advised that was no problem as under the (then) current T&Cs I could transfer the booking to ANY cruise.

 

Fast forward to today and I find that due to circumstances beyond my control I can not go the the cruise, no problem I thought I shall move it and so we chose an alternative cruise. I ring P&O to be told they have changed their T&Cs and whilst I can still move the cruise it has to be to one of the same value or dearer. I told the lady on the phone thanks but P&O has now lost yet another booking from us as we have already cancelled 2 others losing the deposit.

 

My question is, is it legal to change T&Cs and retrospectively apply them?

 

For what it is worth both booking would have been "Select".    

[arlowood]

Do you have documentary evidence of the T&C's at the time you originally booked.

 

I'm no legal eagle but I would think it unlikely that P&O can impose new T&C's retrospectively.

 

Normally at the time of booking, you would be sent a booking confirmation with T&C's attached. If you have those and they include the "transfer to ANY cruise" wording then those are the terms that will apply to your booking.

 

Hopefully someone more qualified in these legal matters will be along to support or shoot down my opinion.

[MX-Drew]

5 minutes ago, arlowood said:

Do you have documentary evidence of the T&C's at the time you originally booked.

 

I'm no legal eagle but I would think it unlikely that P&O can impose new T&C's retrospectively.

 

Normally at the time of booking, you would be sent a booking confirmation with T&C's attached. If you have those and they include the "transfer to ANY cruise" wording then those are the terms that will apply to your booking.

 

Hopefully someone more qualified in these legal matters will be along to support or shoot down my opinion.

Good point, I shall have a read and report back.

 

It didn't take me long to find this and they have themselves covered unless I can get my hands on an old brochure. This is what they say.

 

 The Booking Conditions which govern this holiday contract are available on the P&O Cruises website
www.pocruises.com and are printed in the back of the latest brochure.

Edited August 8, 2022 by MX-Drew
Updated

[terrierjohn]

T&Cs are set by the provider and AFAIK they are able to amend these as and when they want, and effectively make them retrspective. So I doubt you have a leg to stand on.

[MX-Drew]

2 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

T&Cs are set by the provider and AFAIK they are able to amend these as and when they want, and effectively make them retrspective. So I doubt you have a leg to stand on.

I did think that may be the case but at the same time that means any supplier could get out of any situation just by changing T&Cs which I also find hard to believe.

[terrierjohn]

Just now, MX-Drew said:

I did think that may be the case but at the same time that means any supplier could get out of any situation just by changing T&Cs which I also find hard to believe.

Think about it, if youre correct then when covid hit the cruise lines would not have been able to amend their T&Cs to enable cruises booked under the old terms to be moved as freely as they have been.

[david63]

If I am not mistaken the T&Cs regarding the change of a booking had the clause "this offer may be withdrawn in the future" of something similar along those lines.

[MX-Drew]

10 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Think about it, if youre correct then when covid hit the cruise lines would not have been able to amend their T&Cs to enable cruises booked under the old terms to be moved as freely as they have been.

Good point but I could envisage a clause in a law that allowed changes that benefit the other party

[Pippa04]

I've just been having correspondence with them on this very subject.  They refuse to give me the terms and conditions from the day I booked which I assume form part of my contract with them and try to tell me that I have to bear in mind that they can do exactly what they like due to global circumstances.  Certainly leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

[MX-Drew]

13 minutes ago, david63 said:

If I am not mistaken the T&Cs regarding the change of a booking had the clause "this offer may be withdrawn in the future" of something similar along those lines.

I would have read that to mean the offer to new customer would not apply not the existing customers no longer have the offer. Otherwise that would also apply to sales offers with extra OBC, they with drawn the offer and all those who have already booked lose the extra OBC.

[terrierjohn]

Just now, MX-Drew said:

Good point but I could envisage a clause in a law that allowed changes that benefit the other party

You could maybe go into the My p&o cruises for this cruise and amend your credit card details changing the security code?

[MX-Drew]

1 minute ago, Pippa04 said:

I've just been having correspondence with them on this very subject.  They refuse to give me the terms and conditions from the day I booked which I assume form part of my contract with them and try to tell me that I have to bear in mind that they can do exactly what they like due to global circumstances.  Certainly leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

I'm with you on this and makes you distrust P&O.

Maybe we need to join forces.

[MX-Drew]

Just now, terrierjohn said:

You could maybe go into the My p&o cruises for this cruise and amend your credit card details changing the security code?

Why?

I can just tell them to cancel it as I'm way off balance due date.

[thinfool]

I have to think that, if I lived in the UK, I would move heaven and earth to book with a US travel agent so that I would not lose deposit over something as corrupt as this.

[terrierjohn]

2 minutes ago, MX-Drew said:

I would have read that to mean the offer to new customer would not apply not the existing customers no longer have the offer. Otherwise that would also apply to sales offers with extra OBC, they with drawn the offer and all those who have already booked lose the extra OBC.

I don't believe the T&Cs will include any mention of OBC or indeed any other special price offers. You just have to accept that the new conditions apply to all existing bookings from whichever date P&O specify.

[Megabear2]

Hmmm.  This is exactly the scenario I foresaw last week! You will most certainly not have been the first and no doubt won't be the last.  They tried to distinguish between bookings before 3 August and those after but the only real difference is that if you book after 3 August only select fares are free to move.

 

I think it is probably legal but as to whether its ethical a totally different matter.  However my straw poll showed the majority were happy with the reintroduction of the more expensive only option.

 

For my part I've always thought it unfair but there you go.

[terrierjohn]

8 minutes ago, MX-Drew said:

Why?

I can just tell them to cancel it as I'm way off balance due date.

Sorry that reply was to JH1809 on the paying the balance thread, no idea how it ended up on here.

 

.

[Pippa04]

33 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Think about it, if youre correct then when covid hit the cruise lines would not have been able to amend their T&Cs to enable cruises booked under the old terms to be moved as freely as they have been.

I would imagine that is acceptable as it's an alteration that both parties are happy with.  T&C's are there to protect both parties, not just the biggest bully.

[Jazzytelly]

Can you perhaps book a new cruise and upgrade to a higher grade of cabin. Although I assume if you have only paid the deposit it wouldn’t perhaps be worth it.

[Megabear2]

You might find this interesting!

 

https://ironcladapp.com/journal/contracts/terms-and-conditions-legally-binding/

 

 

https://www.law365.co/blog/can-i-change-my-terms-conditions

Edited August 8, 2022 by Megabear2

[tring]

1 hour ago, MX-Drew said:

I'm looking for, preferably some with legal experience to help.

 

I booked a cruise back in April 21 and I was not sure 100% I would be free on those dates but I was advised that was no problem as under the (then) current T&Cs I could transfer the booking to ANY cruise.

 

Fast forward to today and I find that due to circumstances beyond my control I can not go the the cruise, no problem I thought I shall move it and so we chose an alternative cruise. I ring P&O to be told they have changed their T&Cs and whilst I can still move the cruise it has to be to one of the same value or dearer. I told the lady on the phone thanks but P&O has now lost yet another booking from us as we have already cancelled 2 others losing the deposit.

 

My question is, is it legal to change T&Cs and retrospectively apply them?

 

For what it is worth both booking would have been "Select".    

 

From a source with knowledge of consumer law, I have been told that:-

 

Terms and conditions cannot be changed after you have booked the cruise, so T&C's present at the time of the booking will apply to that booking.  We always save a copy and also print out the T&C's at the time a booking is made, so we know which T&C's were applicable at the time.  It is not likely the offer of free flexible transfers were part of those T&C's though. 

 

If you were told by P&O that the flexible booking offer was available at that time, then that is what you were told, so could be removed at any time.  However, if you were assured that you would be able to change your cruise at any time in the future according to that offer, then that would form part of your T&C's, but proving it could be a very sticky point.  If we had a query about something like that on a purchase, we would have asked for that information in writing (e.g. email), then we would be able to prove any additional point.

 

From your initial post, it does not sound like you were in fact given the assurance a current offer could be used at any time in the future as you referred to then current position, but for future reference, a copy of the T&C's which were in place when your booking was made is always worth having available.  We had an issue on another cruise line recently, when they decided to change the T&C's of pre-booked excursions - a copy of the original T&C's turned up trumps, along with a point being made that T&C's cannot be changed subsequently.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by tring

[Megabear2]

7 minutes ago, Jazzytelly said:

Can you perhaps book a new cruise and upgrade to a higher grade of cabin. Although I assume if you have only paid the deposit it wouldn’t perhaps be worth it.

This has always been the old chestnut, long before covid.  The terms have always been totally against the consumer as in some cases - a world cruise for instance - it is virtually impossible to find a more expensive voyage and you were expected to pay a penalty for moving your cruise as well.

 

Traditionally voyages going on sale 2 or even 3 years ahead offered lower prices.  Covid has seen this off because of all the FCC washing around in the system.  As a result select prices in particular have been extremely high and as has been discussed elsewhere a massive gap has opened for those booking on launch to secure cabins and those being tempted very late to fill the ships up.  The downside of this for P&O etc al has been the generous terms they offered to move cruises in an effort to keep people on side.  

 

With some clearly having been "playing the game" and abusing the system to their advantage the door has been closed and genuine people are back in the trap albeit without a fee at this stage.  It has always been this.  

 

I was charged £100pp to move a cruise when my father was dying and a further £50pp to change the passenger name from my mum to my husband.  P&O did have the good grace to be embarrassed but still charged it!

[tring]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

 

 However my straw poll showed the majority were happy with the reintroduction of the more expensive only option.

 

For my part I've always thought it unfair but there you go.

 

Was the ability to change a cruise according to those flexible rules ever part of the T&C's, as applied for new bookings though?  It did not not appear for any cruises we have booked.  The applicable T&C's can usually be accessed from a link provided on booking, though need to access them then, as they can of course be changed for later bookings. As you say perhaps unfair if not made clear, but customers are made aware of the T&C's at the time of booking.  If the ability to make a flexible change was actually mentioned on the T&C's, then it could not be changed for the bookings made under them.

 

Perhaps see my earlier post regards verbal information which could add to those conditions.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by tring

[Megabear2]

28 minutes ago, tring said:

 

Was the ability to change a cruise according to those flexible rules ever part of the T&C's, as applied for new bookings though?  It did not not appear for any cruises we have booked.  The applicable T&C's can usually be accessed from a link provided on booking, though need to access them then, as they can of course be changed for later bookings. As you say perhaps unfair if not made clear, but customers are made aware of the T&C's at the time of booking.  If the ability to make a flexible change was actually mentioned on the T&C's, then it could not be changed for the bookings made under them.

 

Perhaps see my earlier post regards verbal information which could add to those conditions.

 

I wasn't actually arguing with your point!  My comment refers to historically the booking conditions have always been thus (albeit I think unfair).  I have never agreed with long term bookings being locked into only upwards pricing (the same applying to property leases and being a big influence on our empty shops). 

 

The rules are more or less what they were apart from no charge to change. They have always been rigid.  Personally I will not book anything else long term as the world is far too unstable so will take my chances on late savers.

 

I feel very sorry anyone genuinely caught up in the change as new cruisers in particular will not be used to the must cost more clause.

[tring]

31 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I wasn't actually arguing with your point!  My comment refers to historically the booking conditions have always been thus (albeit I think unfair).  I have never agreed with long term bookings being locked into only upwards pricing (the same applying to property leases and being a big influence on our empty shops). 

 

The rules are more or less what they were apart from no charge to change. They have always been rigid.  Personally I will not book anything else long term as the world is far too unstable so will take my chances on late savers.

 

I feel very sorry anyone genuinely caught up in the change as new cruisers in particular will not be used to the must cost more clause.

 

I did not take your post as an argument and I totally agree with all you say. 

 

The idea that you sign an agreement to something on a screen is my pet hate.  Recently I went to the Med centre on a ship and before the consultation, I was asked to sign a screen - the nurse had given a brief idea of what I was signing to agree (in her opinion).  She was not too pleased at all when I told her I wanted to read what I was signing!

 

It is also the case that those who are more at risk of being misled are those who would suffer most as well, since they are likely less affluent.  Interesting how even on this thread, people who appear to be well educated are also confused as to the situation and tend to make assumptions.  

 

Perhaps this is something schools should address - an awareness of consumer issues could be of more use in life than some other traditional school subjects IMO.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by tring