Quick question are books back in library

[ann141]

6 hours ago, LandC said:

I agree.  It will very disappointing if the library disappears, but if Saga don’t intend to restock the library they should say so.  

I wonder if a previous poster is correct that the previous book supplier has gone bust? Saga may be trying to source books elsewhere . If that is the case there may be books in the near future 

[david05]

For an initial re-stock my local Waterstones has plenty of books (other book sellers are available!) 😀

[nosapphire]

7 hours ago, ann141 said:

I wonder if a previous poster is correct that the previous book supplier has gone bust? Saga may be trying to source books elsewhere . If that is the case there may be books in the near future 

IF they were trying to source another supplier, then they would, surely, already have done so.

My personal opinion is still that they are desperate to find any possible areas to cut costs, and are hoping that library books are one of the few areas that not too many people will complain about.

I did read (and now I cannot find the link) that one of the conditions for the "mortgages" on the new ships was that they both had to be repaid from cruise earnings - i.e, Saga cannot fund the mortgage from other areas of income.

Although the loans have been restructured for extra time (needed thanks to the pandemic) this will have added to the overall amount to be repaid - so seems reasonable to look for areas to reduce outlay that may not cause too much discontent.

Sad, as I always love browsing the library, even though I have my kindle fully loaded. Just won't be the same if no library on board.

 

[trams]

Turn the Library into a Casino. Entertainment for passengers and income for SAGA, problem solved!

[calliopecruiser]

This is sad to me - I was just lamenting the lack of a dedicated library onboard Seabourn (though there are books on shelves in one of the lounges that can be "borrowed"), and Saga was one of the cruise lines I was considering for future cruises.  It's not that the library is a deciding factor, but the reason they don't have a library might be.  I believe on Seabourn it's done for space, not cost, reasons. 

[Vivaldi]

3 hours ago, calliopecruiser said:

It's not that the library is a deciding factor, but the reason they don't have a library might be.  I believe on Seabourn it's done for space, not cost, reasons.

 

In fairness, we don't know exactly why the books have not reappeared. To say that it is because of the cost is more speculation than fact - Saga haven't said this . Given that Saga are effectively increasing their costs by offering premium spirits to guests from next month, I'm not convinced that the modest savings achievable by failing to restock the library would make much difference. Perhaps it is a fear of norovirus - but that would be speculation on my part! 

[twotravellersLondon]

40 minutes ago, Vivaldi said:

 

In fairness, we don't know exactly why the books have not reappeared. To say that it is because of the cost is more speculation than fact - Saga haven't said this . Given that Saga are effectively increasing their costs by offering premium spirits to guests from next month, I'm not convinced that the modest savings achievable by failing to restock the library would make much difference. Perhaps it is a fear of norovirus - but that would be speculation on my part! 

 

 

You may very well be right.

 

Norovirus became a real issue for one UK based cruise company which was involved in various legal disputes and successful claims for compensation. A specialist firm of Travel solicitors obtained a very significant six figure sum in compensation for passengers who fell ill in 2009 and 2010. The same firm represented more than 200 passengers who said that they were affected by similar symptoms from 2009 to 2013. In one judgement dated 22nd January 2015, 16 claimants succeeded in their claims in respect to a number of cruises in 2011. The company wasn't happy... the case was taken a huge expense to the Court of appeal... where... the company quite spectacularly lost on July 29 2016. The judgement against the company was that; "the illness from Norovirus was acquired on board ship and not otherwise. It was acquired by reason of a failure by the company to properly implement their plan or procedures." The compensation and the legal costs must have been eyewatering.

 

More importantly, this example is now case law. Woe betide any cruise company attempting to argue a case in a lower court where it might be suggested that the Court of Appeal has already passed judgement on a similar case!

[Windsurfboy]

Closing the library when Norovirus is detected on board makes a bit of sense. Closing it when no Norovirus is nonsense.

 

Stopping  Norovirus is all about Hygiene throughout the ship, the library is a very minor player. If there is an outbreak of Norovirus then saying we had the library  closed as a precaution will cut no ice with lawyers.

 

Anyway  lack of books is still down as a Covid precaution. 

[Denarius]

On 12/12/2022 at 11:47 AM, Windsurfboy said:

Closing the library when Norovirus is detected on board makes a bit of sense. Closing it when no Norovirus is nonsense.

 

Stopping  Norovirus is all about Hygiene throughout the ship, the library is a very minor player. If there is an outbreak of Norovirus then saying we had the library  closed as a precaution will cut no ice with lawyers.

 

Anyway  lack of books is still down as a Covid precaution. 

Not any longer. Just received an email and "Life on Board" attachment regarding my Feb 2023 cruise. No mention of covid anywhere, but the attachment states in the facilities section

 

The Library (deck 7)
A quiet area where you can while away the
hours reading a book, playing games or
enjoying a coffee and pastry. There is free
Wi-Fi, and a coffee station open between
0800-1800. We continue not to carry
books on board so please remember to
bring your own.
 

So the jury is still out as to when or if they will return.

[twotravellersLondon]

35 minutes ago, Denarius said:

Not any longer. Just received an email and "Life on Board" attachment regarding my Feb 2023 cruise. No mention of covid anywhere, but the attachment states in the facilities section

 

The Library (deck 7)
A quiet area where you can while away the
hours reading a book, playing games or
enjoying a coffee and pastry. There is free
Wi-Fi, and a coffee station open between
0800-1800. We continue not to carry
books on board so please remember to
bring your own.
 

So the jury is still out as to when or if they will return.

 

We're also cruising with SAGA early in the new Year. We're always busy on a cruise: either wildlife watching, exploring on shore,, enjoying the food and entertainment or just being sociable. Books in the library are always impressive but a lack of them is just not a deal-breaker for us. 

[Windsurfboy]

It's  not  a deal breaker for me either .  However it's  a facility other cruise ships offer, and was advertised when I  booked. I will miss it.

 

Clearly if it doesn't have books it is no longer correct to call it the library. It is misleading,  it is just another lounge. They still advertise that their ships have libraries  -  under life on board on website and in letter to Denarius. Which without books they don't. 

 

I'll wait untill nearer my cruise before emailing Nigel Blanks and his boss.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Windsurfboy

[Denarius]

56 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

It's  not  a deal breaker for me either .  However it's  a facility other cruise ships offer, and was advertised when I  booked. I will miss it.

 

Clearly if it doesn't have books it is no longer correct to call it the library. It is misleading,  it is just another lounge. They still advertise that their ships have libraries  -  under life on board on website and in letter to Denarius. Which without books they don't. 

 

I'll wait untill nearer my cruise before emailing Nigel Blanks and his boss.

Agree. A library is a place with books, if there are no books then it is not a library. The absence of books to borrow does not matter to me, I always take my own. But if books are not to be reinstated then the area should be renamed to reflect this. Something like the Sanctuary might be appropriate.

[twotravellersLondon]

3 hours ago, Denarius said:

Agree. A library is a place with books, if there are no books then it is not a library. The absence of books to borrow does not matter to me, I always take my own. But if books are not to be reinstated then the area should be renamed to reflect this. Something like the Sanctuary might be appropriate.

 

An interesting point. Sanctuary however seems rather precious and off-putting to us... "safe-place for someone being hunted?" type of thing.  The House of Lords Library has no books but it's also called a "library." Bookless libraries have been around since the 1990s... sometimes they are called BiblioTechs. 

[Windsurfboy]

I thought bibliotek was the Latin name for library, people had adopted  biblio tech for a place with digital books and other digital media.  Don't think it applies to a place with seats.  That's a lounge.

[Tothesunset]

From Latin:

 

Liber - book

 

Librarius - relating to books

 

Libraria - bookshop. 

 

From whence we get library. 

 

So nothing can really be described as a library in the absence of books. 

[twotravellersLondon]

4 hours ago, Tothesunset said:

From Latin:

 

Liber - book

 

Librarius - relating to books

 

Libraria - bookshop. 

 

From whence we get library. 

 

So nothing can really be described as a library in the absence of books. 

 

That may be the semantic case... but many university, college and even school libraries in the US and some in the UK have no books. If we retreat to the Latin meanings of a couple of millennia ago we might as well insist that our "Salaries" are paid in  sodium chloride every four weeks or so... because... Salary means a monthly allowance of salt. Other examples are available!

 

In the year to 18 September 2022, SAGA cruises almost doubled its revenue, increased its passenger numbers and raised its ocean cruise loading factor. It certainly doesn't seem that books in the library are a significant problem for most SAGA passengers.

 

If anyone is really seriously upset by a library with no books... surely they would go on a ship that has a library with books in it.

 

On the other hand,  if SAGA didn't offer good food, excellent entertainment, comfortable cabins and good quality drinks... then we might think again.

[Tothesunset]

8 hours ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

That may be the semantic case... but many university, college and even school libraries in the US and some in the UK have no books. If we retreat to the Latin meanings of a couple of millennia ago we might as well insist that our "Salaries" are paid in  sodium chloride every four weeks or so... because... Salary means a monthly allowance of salt. Other examples are available!

 

That seems to be the urban truth concerning the etymology of salary but isn't founded on documented evidence. That salary derives from the Latin for salt is tenuous when explained by the canard of a soldier's method of payment. In fact, they were paid in sisterces with which, of course, they may have bought salt. 

 

Libraries with no books? O tempora. O mores! 

[Windsurfboy]

Anyway  on their website Saga describe the library as offering a wide selection of fiction and non fiction books . That's what I expect to see.

[twotravellersLondon]

7 hours ago, Tothesunset said:

That seems to be the urban truth concerning the etymology of salary but isn't founded on documented evidence. That salary derives from the Latin for salt is tenuous when explained by the canard of a soldier's method of payment. In fact, they were paid in sisterces with which, of course, they may have bought salt. 

 

Libraries with no books? O tempora. O mores! 

 

Libraries with no books...

 

As an aside... the internet is awash with bloggers, seemingly with little else to occupy their time, composing increasing complex arguments for and against the etymology of "salary"...

 

More relevantly, although some cruisers (if they have time) may miss the thumbing through the odd heavy tomb... Cicero's "O tempora O mores" ("Shame on this age and on its lost principles!") was somewhat eclipsed in AD 8 by Ovid's "Omnia mutantur, nihil interit" ("everything changes, nothing perishes.")

 

We live in a digital age and the world including the world of books has changed. Ovid's assurance is that everything changes yet nothing need be lost... now have instant access to billion of books on our "phones."

 

In 2016, the at Bodleian Library Oxford, The British Library, The US Library of Congress, and even the Library of Alexandria in Egypt (Latin scholars and historians.. may take note!) were all given a digital makeover and have virtual (bookless) access.

 

If we object to the use of the word "library" on SAGA if there are no books in a particular space, should we continue to accept that SAGA can have "sailors" who don't use sails to power the ship? Or should a SAGA crew member in charge of propulsion on a ship without a traditional engine still be called an "engineer?" What of a "purser" with no "purse," a "mate" who's not on good terms with the captain, a "passenger" who's cruising rather than travelling on a passage from a home port to a destination... the discussion has endless possibilities.

 

Such erudite semantics are the stuff of small talk and humour over an afternoon tea or a pre-dinner cocktail on the Spirit of Discovery or the Spirit of Adventure. All good fun. 

 

As far as books are concerned, we take with us the most relevant, interesting and absorbing writings relating to the areas that we're due to visit... most people seem to do something similar. 

 

We're far more interested in what Gins and Whiskies will be available in the New Year!

[Kohima]

To be pedantic, bibliotheke is Ancient Greek for ‘room of books’, nothing to do with technology..

Similarly the word library (from Latin) is inextricably linked with books. The vast majority of people, whether satisfied Saga customers or not, would expect to find books in an area described as a library. The availability of games and jigsaws in this area, as well as playing cards in others, completely negates the argument of avoidance of virus transmission by touch.
Saga used to boast in brochures that they had, arguably, the best libraries at sea. This was certainly true on the old ships, where they were very well used by many passengers for both borrowing and browsing from an excellent selection of books of all types.
Why would Saga not wish to offer as wide a variety of amenities onboard as possible, rather than reduce them?

[Vivaldi]

4 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

Such erudite semantics are the stuff of small talk and humour over an afternoon tea or a pre-dinner cocktail on the Spirit of Discovery or the Spirit of Adventure.

 

It's not just semantics, it's a question of fact: as Windsurfboy mentioned, Saga says that the library offers a wide selection of fiction and non-fiction books, and on their website, Saga describes the library on the SofD as "a booklover's paradise". Not quite, if there are no books there. In the absence of books, Saga should remove these misleading descriptions.

As for the "salary" debate, the OED agrees with Tothesunset - the word refers to the payment, not to the salt itself. 

[twotravellersLondon]

18 minutes ago, Vivaldi said:

It's not just semantics, it's a question of fact: as Windsurfboy mentioned, Saga says that the library offers a wide selection of fiction and non-fiction books, and on their website, Saga describes the library on the SofD as "a booklover's paradise". Not quite, if there are no books there. In the absence of books, Saga should remove these misleading descriptions.

As for the "salary" debate, the OED agrees with Tothesunset - the word refers to the payment, not to the salt itself. 

 

Books or no books. Library or some other another title... it's just not something that we're fussed about and it certainly won't impinge on our enjoyment of our upcoming cruise in the New Year or influence our decision when we're buying our next cruise with SAGA... we consider other things be much more important.

[Windsurfboy]

As I said before it's not a deal breaker and I won't be cancelling my cruise.  But I cannot comfortably read tablet in sun. Whilst my wife sunbathe I read. I took a seperate case with books for our Eastern Mediterranean Odyssy. 

 

I wouldn't rank books as important as food and drink. However to me a library is more important than daytime lectures and craft workshops. 

[Denarius]

On 12/17/2022 at 5:00 PM, twotravellersLondon said:

 

An interesting point. Sanctuary however seems rather precious and off-putting to us... "safe-place for someone being hunted?" type of thing.  The House of Lords Library has no books but it's also called a "library." Bookless libraries have been around since the 1990s... sometimes they are called BiblioTechs. 

In retrospect I agree. I was searching for something appropriate to a quiet lounge area outside the general traffic flow and free from piped music, enterainment etc. Somewhere where you could sit to read a book, listen to music on headphones/earbuds, engage in quiet conversation or just have a coffee. How about The Sitting Room, it being The Living Room's quieter cousin?

Edited December 18, 2022 by Denarius

[Tothesunset]

6 hours ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

In 2016, the at Bodleian Library Oxford, The British Library, The US Library of Congress, and even the Library of Alexandria in Egypt (Latin scholars and historians.. may take note!) were all given a digital makeover and have virtual (bookless) access.

 

What have they done with all the books? Do they no longer have them? Has access to original tomes been denied?