Important Vaccination Question

[moses0]

Does anyone know if Cunard make an exception for people who have a  health condition that precludes them being Vaccinated?  I have a friend who would like to take a trip next spring but on Doctors advice has not been vaccinated.  She is not anti vaccination.

[NavyPanda]

I don't believe they have an exemption policy. However, I would wait and see what happens regarding the vaccination policy. At the moment the Cunard vaccination information on their website states the following

 

"Please note, we have only categorised voyages departing up to and including 23 December 2022 on Queen Mary 2 and Queen Victoria, and voyages departing up to and including 1 March 2023 on Queen Elizabeth. The vaccination and testing policy for voyages departing after these dates will be published shortly and we will be communicating these requirements to any booked guests to confirm the requirements." 

 

Vaccination and testing requirements for your voyage (cunard.com)

 

My guess is that in line with the sister companies owned by Carnival plc/inc such as Holland America and Princess Cruises, that Cunard (and P&O) will no longer require vaccinations for the vast majority of their cruises (the exceptions being for cruises with destinations which require vaccination for entry). I expect that Cunard/P&O will make a joint announcement in the next couple of weeks or so. 

 

Competitors to Cunard/P&O such as Royal Carribean and MSC have also dropped their requirements which shows that Carnival is moving along with the rest of the market and isn't just an outlier on this.

 

Lines which cater to the US market, decided to stop their requirements before lines which predominantly cater to the UK market (Cunard/P&O), presumably due to the lower vaccination rates in the US and the potential custom they have missed out.

 

It is likely Carnival Plc will have looked at their bottom line for their UK based lines and decided that with roughly 30% of people not taking up the offer of a booster vaccine (first offered over a year ago), that this is too large a cohort to exclude from future sales.

 

I would be very surprised if Cunard retain the vaccination requirements into 2023 except what has already been announced for QE and maybe QM2 transatlantics. 

[TheOldBear]

While there was theoretically a vaccination requirement in place this October, no one in Brooklyn asked for any documentation.

[ballroom-cruisers]

It is clear from the experiences of the past few years, that an unvaccinated passenger will represent an increased risk of being infected relative to a vaccinated passenger with up to date booster jabs, and therefore consequentially an increased of passing the virus to other people on board, both passengers and crew. So to minimise the risk it is easy to see that Cunard would not wish to offer exemptions, no matter what the reason is. Also anyone unvaccinated on board who contracts Covid during a voyage would have a greater chance of being more seriously ill and then need more intensive medical care.  Given the number of incidences of some percentage of personnel on board testing positive on most voyages, then anyone who is unvaccinated may require a level of care that is only possible in intensive care wards in a hospital, should they contract Covid, and that is not something available in the medical centres on board, and would likely need a medevac transfer to a facility on land in order to treat anyone who needed to be on a ventilator for example. So it would be surprising if anyone who is unvaccinated, even if for for good medical reasons, to put themselves at risk in a cruise environment in that kind of way.

[ballroom-cruisers]

25 minutes ago, TheOldBear said:

While there was theoretically a vaccination requirement in place this October, no one in Brooklyn asked for any documentation.

 

It was certainly the case that vaccination documentation was checked in Southampton prior to check-in on the voyages I was on earlier in the year.  Making sure passengers didn't bypass that check was a procedure that would likely have led to less incidences of infection during the voyage that followed that departure.  If checking documents was bypassed as in the post quoted, and people knew in advance then it was going to be more likely to have larger numbers on the voyage that followed succumbing to Covid.  No doubt Cunard will have their own records of the outcome for cruises where vaccination documents were enforced compared to those where it was not. In addition forum reports both here and in other private cruise groups will relate passenger experiences and some idea of whether more were affected in cruises departing Brooklyn compared to Southampton, and other departure points could give an indication too.

[Covepointcruiser]

If you are too sick or compromised to be vaccinated, would your doctor advise traveling on a cruise ship where you will be, most likely exposed to the virus?

[ABoatNerd]

4 minutes ago, Covepointcruiser said:

If you are too sick or compromised to be vaccinated, would your doctor advise traveling on a cruise ship where you will be, most likely exposed to the virus?

People have travelled on ships with many medical conditions and have been exposed to the flu, cold, covid, norovirus and survived. It really is up to the person and their risk tolerance. 

[exlondoner]

9 hours ago, Covepointcruiser said:

If you are too sick or compromised to be vaccinated, would your doctor advise traveling on a cruise ship where you will be, most likely exposed to the virus?

And will an insurance company insure you?

[exlondoner]

11 hours ago, NavyPanda said:

I don't believe they have an exemption policy. However, I would wait and see what happens regarding the vaccination policy. At the moment the Cunard vaccination information on their website states the following

 

"Please note, we have only categorised voyages departing up to and including 23 December 2022 on Queen Mary 2 and Queen Victoria, and voyages departing up to and including 1 March 2023 on Queen Elizabeth. The vaccination and testing policy for voyages departing after these dates will be published shortly and we will be communicating these requirements to any booked guests to confirm the requirements." 

 

Vaccination and testing requirements for your voyage (cunard.com)

 

My guess is that in line with the sister companies owned by Carnival plc/inc such as Holland America and Princess Cruises, that Cunard (and P&O) will no longer require vaccinations for the vast majority of their cruises (the exceptions being for cruises with destinations which require vaccination for entry). I expect that Cunard/P&O will make a joint announcement in the next couple of weeks or so. 

 

Competitors to Cunard/P&O such as Royal Carribean and MSC have also dropped their requirements which shows that Carnival is moving along with the rest of the market and isn't just an outlier on this.

 

Lines which cater to the US market, decided to stop their requirements before lines which predominantly cater to the UK market (Cunard/P&O), presumably due to the lower vaccination rates in the US and the potential custom they have missed out.

 

It is likely Carnival Plc will have looked at their bottom line for their UK based lines and decided that with roughly 30% of people not taking up the offer of a booster vaccine (first offered over a year ago), that this is too large a cohort to exclude from future sales.

 

I would be very surprised if Cunard retain the vaccination requirements into 2023 except what has already been announced for QE and maybe QM2 transatlantics. 

I’m not sure of the basis for your speculations. Take up of the autumn booster has been very high among the more elderly, which is the group that makes up a high proportion of Cunard’s passengers. Why would they change their requirements, and risk losing passengers?

[ballroom-cruisers]

37 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

And will an insurance company insure you?

 

Whether or not an insurance company will cover someone with a known existing condition is decided on a case by case basis usually, and the insurance agent setting up the negotiation with a potential insurance customer will need to refer to company policy, or if not already in writing for the particular situation, then the agents will refer up to higher management to assess whether the actuarial probability means that the company is most likely to lose money by providing the cover, or not. In such cases if it is decided that an assessment can be made, and if cover can be offered but with additional premium cost, then the company will do so. For sure though if you purchase insurance without declaring existing or known medical conditions then the policy will be void in the event of a claim, and buying the policy under that situation will be a waste of money.

[NavyPanda]

1 hour ago, exlondoner said:

I’m not sure of the basis for your speculations. Take up of the autumn booster has been very high among the more elderly, which is the group that makes up a high proportion of Cunard’s passengers. Why would they change their requirements, and risk losing passengers?

 

I thought I explained my speculations quite well? Essentially, you only have to look at the wider cruise industry, Cunard's sister companies as well as non-Carnival competitors and see what they are doing.

 

MSC, NCL, Princess, Fred Olsen, Royal Carribean, Celebrity, Oceania and Regent Seven Seas make up the vast majority of the non P&O/Cunard cruises from Southampton. Of these, only Fred Olsen is still mandating vaccination. 

 

I am, of course, making the assumption here, that Cunard's policy will mirror that of P&O, which it has done since the restart of operations, I think that's a sensible assumption to make given the shared management of the two lines and past policy history since restart of operations. 

 

Take up of the autumn booster may be reasonable amongst the more elderly, but the autumn booster is not currently a requirement to sail on Cunard (or P&O) only three doses (or two if taken more recently). Looking at the figures on the Coronavirus Dashboard (GOV UK) 69.9% of 12+ have had a booster (third dose). Cunard's policy for a booster is 18+, but it's not going to make that much difference to the %. 

 

Effectively, Cunard/P&O are going to have to make a decision as to your point. If they change requirements, will they lose more customers than they gain? If they get rid of the requirements the two lines could potentially access an extra 25%-30% of adults who are currently forbidden to cruise with them. Against this will be people who would no longer feel comfortable in cruising with unvaccinated passengers. I feel that Cunard and P&O won't want to miss out on that 25% or so of adults, who can't cruise with them, but CAN cruise with their competitors, whereas the numbers of people who feel they will be unable to cruise will be very low.

 

Yes, it is speculation and only my best guess at what will happen. I could well be wrong, and the vaccination policy is continued into 2023. All is for sure is that Cunard needs to update their guidance as for cruises on QV/QM2 for cruises after 23rd Dec 2022.

[Underwatr]

4 hours ago, exlondoner said:

Take up of the autumn booster has been very high among the more elderly

Perhaps in the UK. Not in the US.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/low-fall-covid-booster-uptake-11668621674

"Among adults 65 and older, some 27% have gotten an updated booster dose, CDC data show. "

Edited December 2, 2022 by Underwatr

[exlondoner]

28 minutes ago, Underwatr said:

Perhaps in the UK. Not in the US.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/low-fall-covid-booster-uptake-11668621674

"Among adults 65 and older, some 27% have gotten an updated booster dose, CDC data show. "

Aren’t P&O and Cunard based in the UK? Hence, presumably, their different approach.

[Jacqueline]

I agree

18 hours ago, ballroom-cruisers said:

Also anyone unvaccinated on board who contracts Covid during a voyage would have a greater chance of being more seriously ill and then need more intensive medical care.  Given the number of incidences of some percentage of personnel on board testing positive on most voyages, then anyone who is unvaccinated may require a level of care that is only possible in intensive care wards in a hospital, should they contract Covid, and that is not something available in the medical centres on board, and would likely need a medevac transfer to a facility on land in order to treat anyone who needed to be on a ventilator for example. So it would be surprising if anyone who is unvaccinated, even if for for good medical reasons, to put themselves at risk in a cruise environment in that kind of way.

This is really the point. Many of the cruises on the Queens are longer in duration as well. On shorter cruises, people often fall ill after they disembark.  The Cunard line tends to attract and older demographic than some other cruiselines as well. A cruise vacation for a person unwell enough or in such fragile health that a vaccine is contraindicated seems like a poor option. 

And to be fair to the rest of the ship, emergency evacuations affect everyone. We arrived in Barbados a half a day late due to a diversion required for a helicopter evacuation. 

[ballroom-cruisers]

5 hours ago, NavyPanda said:

 

Take up of the autumn booster may be reasonable amongst the more elderly, but the autumn booster is not currently a requirement to sail on Cunard (or P&O) only three doses (or two if taken more recently). Looking at the figures on the Coronavirus Dashboard (GOV UK) 69.9% of 12+ have had a booster (third dose). Cunard's policy for a booster is 18+, but it's not going to make that much difference to the %. 

 

 

Just a point of fact about the three doses for over 12s - that is referring to having had the spring (3rd dose) booster, but those take up figures do not relate to the latest autumn bivalent booster that people need to protect more fully against the current BA.5 (and newer BQ.1) variant that is increasing rapidly as a percentage of current cases, with the latter in the UK now passing around 50% of all tested cases with sequenced tests). In the UK for over 70s at present around 75% have had the latest bivalent autumn booster, with only around half of over 50s and much lower percentages of under 50s.  So protection against the latest variants in the UK is at a lower level than during previous surges - the latest data from ONS shows that we currently have around a million people infected with BA.5/BQ.1 in the UK. The data shows that about 1 in 60 people across all age ranges currently has a Covid infection. So I would imagine Cunard managers are  likely to take note of these figures, and also try to assess the risk of infection for potential passengers from other countries if coming aboard, taking their current case rates, and vaccination rates for the new bivalent vaccines that protect at a much higher level for the currently circulating variants compared to those who have only had the earlier Covid jabs or who are unvaccinated. It is a constantly evolving puzzle to act the right way, not only to maximise revenue for the cruise line but also to maximise enjoyment of passengers and minimise the wrecking of people's holidays if they get to be isolated during a cruise!

Edited December 2, 2022 by ballroom-cruisers
typo

[NavyPanda]

12 minutes ago, ballroom-cruisers said:

 

Just a point of fact about the three doses for over 12s - that is referring to having had the spring (3rd dose) booster, but those take up figures do not relate to the latest autumn bivalent booster that people need to protect more fully against the current BA.5 (and newer BQ.1) variant that is increasing rapidly as a percentage of current cases, with the latter in the UK now passing around 50% of all tested cases with sequenced tests). In the UK for over 70s at present around 75% have had the latest bivalent autumn booster, with only around half of over 50s and much lower percentages of under 50s.  So protection against the latest variants in the UK is at a lower level than during previous surges - the latest data from ONS shows that we currently have around a million people infected with BA.5/BQ.1 in the UK. The data shows that about 1 in 60 people across all age ranges currently has a Covid infection. So I would imagine Cunard managers are  likely to take note of these figures, and also try to assess the risk of infection for potential passengers from other countries if coming aboard, taking their current case rates, and vaccination rates for the new bivalent vaccines that protect at a much higher level for the currently circulating variants compared to those who have only had the earlier Covid jabs or who are unvaccinated. It is a constantly evolving puzzle to act the right way, not only to maximise revenue for the cruise line but also to maximise enjoyment of passengers and minimise the wrecking of people's holidays if they get to be isolated during a cruise!

 

Yes, I am aware that the third dose refers to an earlier booster than the one currently being delivered. I used this figure to match as closely as possible to Cunard's current requirements. Cunard requires all adults (18+) to have received a complete vaccination course (two doses of most, or one dose of a specific type) followed by a booster if the primary vaccination course was delivered more than 270 days previously. 

 

I imagine there will be a few people who received their primary vaccination course and then have only had an autumn booster delivered this year (missing out on a previous booster, so presumably not counted in the 69.9% figure), but these numbers are likely very small.

 

I'm not sure what the relevance of the more recent bivalent vaccinations is to Cunard's vaccination policy, unless you believe that Cunard is set to become restrictive in their vaccination policy, perhaps by requiring that people need to have a booster since the new bivalent vaccinations were rolled out? If Cunard goes down this route, using the figures you've provided only around 50% of over 50s have had the bivalent autumn booster and very few under 50s (in part due to people like me being ineligible for one), this will massively reduce their potential market and would be the complete opposite of what is happening in the rest of the cruise industry. This is why I feel any tightening of the vaccination policy is highly unlikely.  

Finally, with regards to your last point about the wrecking of people's holidays if they get isolated. Isolation is a cruise line policy (it is no longer legally required in many countries, including the UK); it will probably be the last thing to go, but with the isolation policy effectively relying on self-testing and reporting results, isolation is effectively optional already.

[ballroom-cruisers]

Clearly in the ideal world very few people would get ill on holiday and only a handful out of the 2k or so passengers would be ill - however if people are infectious on board then more will succumb to becoming unwell.  The situation around the start of the pandemic with ships unable to dock, and significant numbers of people ill, is one I am sure Cunard, as well as other lines would wish not to be repeated.  It is also clear from past posts here as well as on other forums/groups, that if the situation during a voyage deteriorates with a rising number of Covid cases on board, then the ship's management has no hesitation in bringing in tighter controls and prevention of transmission measures. But it is much better to avoid that in the first place - so if the cruise line can fill the required number of rooms to operate in profit and minimise the number of passengers and crew who become ill with Covid then keeping control measures in place makes sense - on the other hand easing back on requirements would make those who will not or cannot have the vaccines, happy and give them more opportunities to get aboard, but those who are fully and recently vaccinated would wish to have their risk reduced to the lowest possible, so that group of passengers would in quite a few cases not be happy if more risk increasing passengers are permitted on board, increasing their chance of becoming infected.  So it is a balance of the limitations on people coming onto the ship against the number of people who as a consequence will not be able to enjoy their holiday in full health, whether in isolation or not - being unwell with a fever, and coughing non-stop is no fun even if not isolating!

[deck chair]

Hello:   Important not to rely alone on these boards for critical information especially regarding covid issues.  You need to contact Cunard Line directly regarding exemptions.   I think you will find that there are medical exemptions allowed.  There is a form to be filled out and submitted.  Please do let us know what  you find.  Good luck.

Deck Chair.  

Edited December 2, 2022 by deck chair

[ballroom-cruisers]

True!

[moses0]

8 hours ago, deck chair said:

Hello:   Important not to rely alone on these boards for critical information especially regarding covid issues.  You need to contact Cunard Line directly regarding exemptions.   I think you will find that there are medical exemptions allowed.  There is a form to be filled out and submitted.  Please do let us know what  you find.  Good luck.

Deck Chair.  

Thank you someone finally gave me an answer and not a lecture. My TA is checking for me. My friend is able to travel but not able to take the vaccine.