No exchanges anymore for mini bar to coffee?

[RD64]

4 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

Well said.  Loyalty programs work off of a revenue bell curve.  People start off spending low, then start to spend real money grasping at the prospect of achieving the loyalty level held by the people they met on the cruise who are on their 27th cruise.  But then, at a certain point, the spending tapers down as the "expert cruiser" knows all the hacks for saving money.  The cruise line in question then no longer covets the loyal customer who has "been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, own the hat" and who now strives to walk off the cruise bragging that their account had a zero balance.  It is proven that the most frequent visitor spends the least money, whether that be a Disney veteran, or a cruise line.  The very fact that this thread is replete with Elite people protesting that Princess is "forcing us to spend money that we don't want to spend" is proof of this.  Yes!  Princess wants people to spend money.  And if there are people who refuse to bite and vote with their feet, don't think that Princess is going to cry over losing a customer who refuses to spend money.    

Well said - I made a similar quote on another board and got reported as a “nuisance comment”.

[JimmyVWine]

25 minutes ago, RD64 said:

Well said - I made a similar quote on another board and got reported as a “nuisance comment”.

Wouldn’t be the first time I was called a nuisance. 😎

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, AE_Collector said:

Removal of a low usage option is just like the minibar coffee card swap elimination. Removal of an option that some couldn’t care less about while others really feel the change. The more options we have the more likely we are to find one that works great for us and keeps us coming back for more.  

I suspect that both cases were changed because they did not fit with Princess systems, more than any other reason.  The Internet change occurred when Princess switched from a per minute to a per day system.  The coffee card also had issue integrating into the medallion package system.  The system showed it as a drink package and created some confusion.  Also noticed that once Princess went to drink packages the order takers in the IC often neglected to charge the card.  I suspect that Princess chose to cancel the coffee card, instead of fixing the issues since it was the only X number of drinks offering, instead of per day.  Fixing the problems would require a modification of how it was displayed  in their system (at least according to the F&B manager on my last cruise.) .  Would have been easier for them to go back to the old card system with punches.

 

We swapped for coffee cards every cruise, while we will miss them, not a major issue.  Will just seek out more coffee shops in port.

Edited April 5, 2023 by ldtr

[AE_Collector]

We were in Caribbean Princess for not the first but the second cruise after it was the first Princess ship to go 100% medallion operation. Internet was mayhem as the elite minutes plan still existed but there was only instructions available for regular customers using the always connected internet plans. So everyone connected and 150 minutes later they were out of time and joined the lineup for Internet cafe help which circled the atrium. 

[caribill]

4 hours ago, billco said:

Perhaps the bean counters at Princess looked at your examples and decided that maybe you aren't their best customers. Maybe the best customers are the ones willing to pay the inflated costs of packages, Princess excursions, and internet.

 

The best customers are those that come back again and again because they like the product.

 

4 hours ago, billco said:

 

They aren't making these changes to be mean, they're doing it to increase the bottom line. Only time will tell if they are right, but by that time many of their former best customers will have died off or be too old to cruise anyway.

 

Or many of their best customers will be cruising on other cruise lines.

 

Yes, there may be cutbacks on the other cruise lines also, but the more the Princess product is like the competition, the more the reason to consider the competition for a cruise.

[caribill]

 

 

2 hours ago, ldtr said:

 

The coffee card also had issue integrating into the medallion package system.  The system showed it as a drink package and created some confusion.  Also noticed that once Princess went to drink packages the order takers in the IC often neglected to charge the card.  I suspect that Princess chose to cancel the coffee card, instead of fixing the issues since it was the only X number of drinks offering, instead of per day.  Fixing the problems would require a modification of how it was displayed  in their system (at least according to the F&B manager on my last cruise.) .  Would have been easier for them to go back to the old card system with punches.

 

 

If they can keep track of 2 fancy desserts a day (with the complications of 0 for those who paid less than $60 for the Plus package and unlimited for those who purchased the Premier package) as well as two fitness cruises per cruise, then it is not hard to keep track of 15 specialty coffees per cruise.

 

It is not the passenger's problem that waitstaff are not trained to know the difference between the various packages sold. Even with the elimination of the coffee package, they still have the plus package, the premier package and the non-alcohol package with their differences.

We already know that the waiters rarely use the E-pads to take orders. They write down cabin numbers and then enter that information into the ordering computer at the bar. One result of that is incorrect cabin numbers are entered which seems to happen often based on posts on Cruise Critic by people who have to go to customer service to have erroneous charges removed.

 

And often when a non-alcohol beverage is involved, staff do not even check if the passenger has any package at all as that takes time. After all, with Princess expecting 75% or more passengers to have one of the three beverage packages, it means the staff has to check 100% of the orders to find less than 25% of orders that need to have a charge made. (I say less than 25% because the average passenger without any package probably orders fewer non-alcohol beverages than the average passenger with a package does.

 

I remember one time on a recent cruise where four or five people came to a bar at the same time to get some bottled water. The server just quickly handed out the number of bottles each person asked for. There was no checking each person's package status on the bar's computer. Probably all four or five people had a package, but maybe one or more did not. It was not worth the busy server's time to check each person's package status.

 

And there have been posts on Cruise Critic by people without a package requesting soda at a bar and just being handed one with no checking for package status.

 

[startedwithamouse]

17 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

Well said.  Loyalty programs work off of a revenue bell curve.  People start off spending low, then start to spend real money grasping at the prospect of achieving the loyalty level held by the people they met on the cruise who are on their 27th cruise.  But then, at a certain point, the spending tapers down as the "expert cruiser" knows all the hacks for saving money.  The cruise line in question then no longer covets the loyal customer who has "been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, own the hat" and who now strives to walk off the cruise bragging that their account had a zero balance.  It is proven that the most frequent visitor spends the least money, whether that be a Disney veteran, or a cruise line.  The very fact that this thread is replete with Elite people protesting that Princess is "forcing us to spend money that we don't want to spend" is proof of this.  Yes!  Princess wants people to spend money.  And if there are people who refuse to bite and vote with their feet, don't think that Princess is going to cry over losing a customer who refuses to spend money.    

Agree with this. There's a lot of fish in the sea who have yet to take a cruise on Princess or are gold/ruby.  Princess Plus is a good value to the future cruisers, and not penny pinchers who take many cruises a year. Princess wants you to have a quality vacation with Plus (new sailors), rather than MANY voyages with standard each year.  Quality not quantity. The cruisers of old aren't going to live forever, and Princess has pivoted to focus on a new generation.  Similar to Disney, the AP's are not valued.  It's the vacationer who spends much more at the table. 

[startedwithamouse]

9 hours ago, caribill said:

 

 

 

If they can keep track of 2 fancy desserts a day (with the complications of 0 for those who paid less than $60 for the Plus package and unlimited for those who purchased the Premier package) as well as two fitness cruises per cruise, then it is not hard to keep track of 15 specialty coffees per cruise.

 

It is not the passenger's problem that waitstaff are not trained to know the difference between the various packages sold. Even with the elimination of the coffee package, they still have the plus package, the premier package and the non-alcohol package with their differences.

We already know that the waiters rarely use the E-pads to take orders. They write down cabin numbers and then enter that information into the ordering computer at the bar. One result of that is incorrect cabin numbers are entered which seems to happen often based on posts on Cruise Critic by people who have to go to customer service to have erroneous charges removed.

 

And often when a non-alcohol beverage is involved, staff do not even check if the passenger has any package at all as that takes time. After all, with Princess expecting 75% or more passengers to have one of the three beverage packages, it means the staff has to check 100% of the orders to find less than 25% of orders that need to have a charge made. (I say less than 25% because the average passenger without any package probably orders fewer non-alcohol beverages than the average passenger with a package does.

 

I remember one time on a recent cruise where four or five people came to a bar at the same time to get some bottled water. The server just quickly handed out the number of bottles each person asked for. There was no checking each person's package status on the bar's computer. Probably all four or five people had a package, but maybe one or more did not. It was not worth the busy server's time to check each person's package status.

 

And there have been posts on Cruise Critic by people without a package requesting soda at a bar and just being handed one with no checking for package status.

 

Another reason why Princess should get rid of standard and just sell fares with Plus.

 

Slows down the server. 

[PacnGoNow]

29 minutes ago, startedwithamouse said:

Agree with this. There's a lot of fish in the sea who have yet to take a cruise on Princess or are gold/ruby.  Princess Plus is a good value to the future cruisers, and not penny pinchers who take many cruises a year. Princess wants you to have a quality vacation with Plus (new sailors), rather than MANY voyages with standard each year.  Quality not quantity. The cruisers of old aren't going to live forever, and Princess has pivoted to focus on a new generation.  Similar to Disney, the AP's are not valued.  It's the vacationer who spends much more at the table. 

Partially true…but take a look around the longer cruises and you’ll see who is spending the money.  It’s definitely not the newbies. 
 

Unless they plan to eliminate the longer cruises and just sail the short 5-7 night cruises, they still need the Elite and Platinum folks to fill the ships. 

[Guest ldtr]

9 hours ago, caribill said:

 

 

 

If they can keep track of 2 fancy desserts a day (with the complications of 0 for those who paid less than $60 for the Plus package and unlimited for those who purchased the Premier package) as well as two fitness cruises per cruise, then it is not hard to keep track of 15 specialty coffees per cruise.

 

It is not the passenger's problem that waitstaff are not trained to know the difference between the various packages sold. Even with the elimination of the coffee package, they still have the plus package, the premier package and the non-alcohol package with their differences.

We already know that the waiters rarely use the E-pads to take orders. They write down cabin numbers and then enter that information into the ordering computer at the bar. One result of that is incorrect cabin numbers are entered which seems to happen often based on posts on Cruise Critic by people who have to go to customer service to have erroneous charges removed.

 

And often when a non-alcohol beverage is involved, staff do not even check if the passenger has any package at all as that takes time. After all, with Princess expecting 75% or more passengers to have one of the three beverage packages, it means the staff has to check 100% of the orders to find less than 25% of orders that need to have a charge made. (I say less than 25% because the average passenger without any package probably orders fewer non-alcohol beverages than the average passenger with a package does.

 

I remember one time on a recent cruise where four or five people came to a bar at the same time to get some bottled water. The server just quickly handed out the number of bottles each person asked for. There was no checking each person's package status on the bar's computer. Probably all four or five people had a package, but maybe one or more did not. It was not worth the busy server's time to check each person's package status.

 

And there have been posts on Cruise Critic by people without a package requesting soda at a bar and just being handed one with no checking for package status.

 

Actually it is when the waiters use the egads where the confusion with the coffee cards occured. Which fit with the F&B Manager saying g to solve the confusion, they would need to change the system.

 

The IC is a different environment then a bar taking multiple orders. Pretty clear it is one order at a time. Yet on a recent 14 day cruise, after ordering atleast 1 blended mocha each day, some how had 9 coffees left out of 15 

 

the card system did not fit with a computer system set up for  per day packaged. To fix it would require money to be spent to fix the issued. Something they were not willing to do for a package that did not fit with their future direction. Same as per minute Internet.

 

Again the benefit is the mini bar setup which is still there, even if the swap options has been reduced.

 

With more people buying the packaged the number of people impacted is significantly reduced. Princess, as with most travel companies, certainly has the data to see how many people are impacted by any change. Low number impacted vs cost of changing system, pretty easy decision. 

 

 

 

[Guest ldtr]

10 hours ago, caribill said:

 

The best customers are those that come back again and again because they like the product.

 

 

Or many of their best customers will be cruising on other cruise lines.

 

Yes, there may be cutbacks on the other cruise lines also, but the more the Princess product is like the competition, the more the reason to consider the competition for a cruise.

There is a marketing concept followed by companies like Apple and Harley Davidson where they attract people that like the product and become advocates for it. Under that concept it is better to get rid of unsatisfied customers, that want something different than the direction chosen by the company than to have then stick around and complain.

 

In other words you respond to customers when the problems involve execution of the company direction, but not those that complain and will never be satisfied over the direction. 

[JimmyVWine]

36 minutes ago, PacnGoNow said:

Partially true…but take a look around the longer cruises and you’ll see who is spending the money.  It’s definitely not the newbies. 

Except that this is 100% wrong.  By way of example, one can book a 21 day Med Cruise on Sun Princess departing on 5/25/24 and pay $10,176 for two people, Standard Fare, in a Cove Balcony cabin.  But if that exact same cabin is sold three separate times to three different couples each taking a 7 day cruise, the fares are $3,546 + $3,526 + $4,126 for a total of $11,198.  Princess makes over $1,000 more by selling three cruises to newbies than it does selling a 21 day cruise to a seasoned pro.

 

And then you have to factor in the extras.  While it was aired a long time ago, there was a CNBC special on the "a week in the life of an NCL cruise ship" and the company representative, while not going into any detail, said that every cruise ship departs at a net revenue of $0.  The fare paid by the passengers and any money spent up to that point covers the operational cost of the cruise but no more.  Any profit from the cruise comes exclusively from on board spending.  I cannot confirm this, but that is what was reported.  If that is true, then Princess will earn more money from three separate couples, each traveling for a week than it will from one couple traveling for 21 days.  To wit:

 

• Each of the three couples might buy a piece of art at the auction.  The 21 day couple might also buy a piece of art.  But 3 > 1.
• Each of the three couples might buy a Stanley doll.  The 21 day couple probably already owns theirs.
• Each of the three couples might buy a miniature model of Sun Princess as a souvenir.  So too might the 21 day couple.  Again, 3 > 1.
• Each of the three couples has kids, friends, relatives and a cat sitter who they want to buy gifts for.  So too does the 21 day couple.  But the sphere of influence of the three couples is > than that of the single 21 day couple.
• It's a brand new ship.  So the 21 day couple wants to try out all of the Specialty restaurants, (let's say that there are three of them) and they go to each one once, and maybe go to their favorite a second time.  That totals 4 Specialty dinners.  Each of the three couples wants to do the same thing and each goes to three Specialty restaurants once.  That is 9 Specialty dinners.

 

And on and on it goes.  The 21 day couple eschews the familiar and approaches certain things with the skepticism that can only come from experience.  The three newbie couples treat their trips like a 5 year old on Christmas morning, tearing into every package with wide eyed gusto.  It is a proven formula.  And the math here proves it yet again. 

[Guest ldtr]

47 minutes ago, PacnGoNow said:

Partially true…but take a look around the longer cruises and you’ll see who is spending the money.  It’s definitely not the newbies. 
 

Unless they plan to eliminate the longer cruises and just sail the short 5-7 night cruises, they still need the Elite and Platinum folks to fill the ships. 

Sure but how many will be new Elite vs old Elite. Always new people joining the Elite ranks.  It is a dynamic pool some additions some departures. The cruise line needs a number of people that cruise a lot and take long itinerary cruises (shorter avg length on Princess than HAL), but they do not need any particular Elite cruiser.

[startedwithamouse]

53 minutes ago, PacnGoNow said:

Partially true…but take a look around the longer cruises and you’ll see who is spending the money.  It’s definitely not the newbies. 
 

Unless they plan to eliminate the longer cruises and just sail the short 5-7 night cruises, they still need the Elite and Platinum folks to fill the ships. 

They're mostly standard fares, as the bars aren't busy.

[startedwithamouse]

16 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Sure but how many will be new Elite vs old Elite. Always new people joining the Elite ranks.  It is a dynamic pool some additions some departures. The cruise line needs a number of people that cruise a lot and take long itinerary cruises (shorter avg length on Princess than HAL), but they do not need any particular Elite cruiser.

Here here. We've been elite for about a year, only started sailing with Princess in 2018. We always get the Plus fare. We don't spend money at art auctions or the spa. We eat at specialty dining a few times each cruise, including Salty Dog and Ocean Terrace. We book the sanctuary for a few days. We don't gamble. We usually buy some spirits with our OBC to take home. We sometimes hit Brighton/Pandora store and add a couple things to the collection.  We've all been invited to 360, without having a suite. Our children buy Gelato. We cruise with our family. We work hard, we play hard. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by startedwithamouse

[caribill]

10 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Except that this is 100% wrong.  By way of example, one can book a 21 day Med Cruise on Sun Princess departing on 5/25/24 and pay $10,176 for two people, Standard Fare, in a Cove Balcony cabin.  But if that exact same cabin is sold three separate times to three different couples each taking a 7 day cruise, the fares are $3,546 + $3,526 + $4,126 for a total of $11,198.  Princess makes over $1,000 more by selling three cruises to newbies than it does selling a 21 day cruise to a seasoned pro.

 

When I have priced my B2Bs as two bookings vs. one, there is usually just a small difference between the two methods.

 

 

10 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

And then you have to factor in the extras.  While it was aired a long time ago, there was a CNBC special on the "a week in the life of an NCL cruise ship" and the company representative, while not going into any detail, said that every cruise ship departs at a net revenue of $0.  The fare paid by the passengers and any money spent up to that point covers the operational cost of the cruise but no more.  Any profit from the cruise comes exclusively from on board spending. 

 

And in the accounting system, the additional price of the Plus and Premier packages counts towards on board revenue. So if Princess meets its goal of 75% of passengers with one of those packages, they have already made a profit from the on board spending

 

10 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

• Each of the three couples might buy a piece of art at the auction.  The 21 day couple might also buy a piece of art.  But 3 > 1.

 

I hope not. Newcomers to cruising should not be suckered into paying for overpriced "art" that is often a computer printout (giclee).

 

10 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

• Each of the three couples might buy a Stanley doll.  The 21 day couple probably already owns theirs.

Posters on Cruise Critic have said they are no longer available on board. Not known is if they have a supply problem or just do not want to sell them anymore.

 

10 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

• Each of the three couples might buy a miniature model of Sun Princess as a souvenir.  So too might the 21 day couple.  Again, 3 > 1.

 

A recent post on Cruise Critic says ship models were not available on his cruise.

[Guest ldtr]

To the cruise line a low spending Elite is better then an empty cabins, but they would prefer someone who has fewer benefit and buys a package.

 

Especially when you consider that Princess now has the oldest average passenger age of any of the main stream line. HAL has been successful if bringing its average age down with its changes. In spite of it having the longest average itinerary length of any of the main stream lines. Of course many long term HAL customers were dissatisfied with the changes. Expect Princess to also try to do thesame.

 

I know I am not in the desired spend or age demographic being a low spending, non package buying Elite who uses all of their benefits, as well as maximizing OBC, Who is older than their average cruiser age.

 

  I am perfectly happy to take advantage of the value Princess provides, cruising over 80 days on the line this year. In spite of losing my free coffee cards it is still one of the best values out there.

Edited April 5, 2023 by ldtr

[JimmyVWine]

2 minutes ago, caribill said:

A recent post on Cruise Critic says ship models were not available on his cruise.

So is your point that the 21 day couple will spend more money than three separate couples because on a particular cruise, ship models weren't in stock?  Sort of an oblique conclusion.

 

And I didn't even mention excursions.  The 21 day couple is going back to places they have been to many times.  They aren't going to purchase $200 pp excursions.  And if they do want an excursion, they will go private and maybe team up with people on a Roll Call.  The three individual couples will put their trust in Princess and buy what the ship offers.  

[AE_Collector]

Diversification is important and I bet this applies to cruising as well. If the ships are full of newbies and there is a downturn in the economy the newbies probably disappear. But the retired in a pension people are still around. 3 - 7 day cruises compared to the same cruise but a 21 day Grand Adventure is one thing but there are regular long cruises that aren’t bookable as shorter segments. Trans Atlantic’s and trans Pacific’s including all the NA west coast to Australia reposition cruises. The long time elites do these cruises and many of us fill the ships by booking “last minute”. Sure they don't make as much per day in onboard revenue but we all know how much effort and price cutting by Princess goes into filling the ships. As I’ve mentioned before, we never get a package but we exclusively do Princess shore excursions and at most ports, not just an occasional one. We frequently spend as much on excursions in total as one of our cruise fare with taxes and fees cost us.

[Guest ldtr]

3 minutes ago, AE_Collector said:

Diversification is important and I bet this applies to cruising as well. If the ships are full of newbies and there is a downturn in the economy the newbies probably disappear. But the retired in a pension people are still around. 3 - 7 day cruises compared to the same cruise but a 21 day Grand Adventure is one thing but there are regular long cruises that aren’t bookable as shorter segments. Trans Atlantic’s and trans Pacific’s including all the NA west coast to Australia reposition cruises. The long time elites do these cruises and many of us fill the ships by booking “last minute”. Sure they don't make as much per day in onboard revenue but we all know how much effort and price cutting by Princess goes into filling the ships. As I’ve mentioned before, we never get a package but we exclusively do Princess shore excursions and at most ports, not just an occasional one. We frequently spend as much on excursions in total as one of our cruise fare with taxes and fees cost us.

Sure it is important. The problem is that Princess is lacking diversity with too many Elite, and too old of an age demographic. It was one thing when Elites were 5% of those on a cruise, another when the number of Elites routinely are 20% or more. 

 

The question is also what is the overall spend is for those Elite.

[coo359a2]

37 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

 

Posters on Cruise Critic have said they are no longer available on board. Not known is if they have a supply problem or just do not want to sell them anymore.

 

 

No Stanley the Bear must have been a problem for certain ships only.  On 12-26 March on the Regal Princess there was a rack full of Stanleys.

[startedwithamouse]

2 hours ago, caribill said:

 

When I have priced my B2Bs as two bookings vs. one, there is usually just a small difference between the two methods.

 

 

 

And in the accounting system, the additional price of the Plus and Premier packages counts towards on board revenue. So if Princess meets its goal of 75% of passengers with one of those packages, they have already made a profit from the on board spending

 

 

I hope not. Newcomers to cruising should not be suckered into paying for overpriced "art" that is often a computer printout (giclee).

 

Posters on Cruise Critic have said they are no longer available on board. Not known is if they have a supply problem or just do not want to sell them anymore.

 

 

A recent post on Cruise Critic says ship models were not available on his cruise.

Lots of Stanley bears on Discovery now. 

[travelin.sisters]

both Stanleys (the original & the smaller costumed ones...unicorn, patriotic, pirate, easter) & ship models on the Crown in March

[JimmyVWine]

4 hours ago, coo359a2 said:

On 12-26 March on the Regal Princess there was a rack full of Stanleys.

Must be lots of Elites on board, as it seems that no one is buying them. 😁

[AE_Collector]

2 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

Must be lots of Elites on board, as it seems that no one is buying them. 😁

We’re Elite and all of our grandkids have one.