After Reading Numerous Posts over the last Several Weeks, These are my thoughts

[Cruiz'nBaers]

LAFFNVEGAS, thank you for this thoughtful review.  We were on the 2022 VOV on the Zaandam and experienced many of the problems you mentioned.  While we had a wonderful cruise, going to amazing destinations, we felt the onboard experience was less than stellar.  We have been cruising HAL since 2003, 12 cruises and 4 star status.  We also cruise other lines, so have firsthand knowledge of what is offered and provided by other companies.  We ran into deep cuts in the quality of the food service and staff shortages.  Beverage shortages were common at the bars.  We heard the excuses of supply chain issues and being unable to hire the staff needed.  We listened, but, were never convinced with the answers, we had our skepticism.  We haven’t sworn off HAL, in fact, we are going on a 35 day Hawaii and Tahiti cruise this coming winter.  That cruise may influence how much we sail with this line in the future.  We love the longer itineraries to unique places, not offered on other lines.  But, there are other options to see these same places.  I have posted in the past the old adage “you have to spend money to make money”,  HAL does not seem familiar with that concept.  We are always blown away by our experience on Celebrity, but, have only cruised on them for 10-11 days in the Caribbean to get away from winter.  We will probably branch out with them to do some European cruises.  We do love the round trip from the US cruises that HAL offers, but will have low onboard expectations when doing one.  Thank you, again, for your thoughtful and balanced post.

[cruisemom42]

33 minutes ago, ski ww said:

I think HAL should go back to what they were good at, stop trying to be everything to everyone. Why did people keep coming back to HAL year after year?? It was the service, staff, itineraries, the ships. Sell off or scrap some of the older ships, they can then spread out the staff from those to the other ships, in this way it would take care of one of the biggest complaints, shortage of staff. Also it costs less to run one bigger ship then two smaller ones.

 

What you're proposing is a fundamental mismatch. Why did people keep coming back to HAL?  Smaller ships, not larger ones.

 

Smaller ships lead to itineraries that could go places where the large ships cannot go. If HAL sells off the smaller ships and focuses on the larger ones, they have much less to offer and are moving away from, not toward, what they used to be.

 

We've become anesthetized to the size of ships because they keep getting bigger. Carrying 2,000 passengers no longer seems large because there are ships that carry two times, even three times as many. But unfortunately port sizes do not change, and HAL has already "lost" many ports of call due to not having smaller ships. Why am I cruising with Azamara and Oceania later this year?  Not because of better food or entertainment (as if!), but because their ships call on ports that bigger lines do not. And in future I strongly suspect we will see more "interesting" ports (like Bar Harbor, like Key West, like Venice) that become off limits to larger ships.

 

Let the Pinnacle class ships sail the basic itineraries to Caribbean, Alaska, Mexico. I have no interest getting aboard one to sail the Med or Asia or other interesting longer cruises. When I see the name of one of those ships on my search, I just pass it by. The crowding in the MDR, for example, is not going to be fixed by hiring more staff -- it's a fundamental design flaw on these ships:  too many people and too few spaces designed to accommodate them without feeling crowded.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by cruisemom42

[trivia addict]

I have sailed on HAL, Royal, Celebrity and Norwegian since cruising started up again. Although almost a Diamond Plus on Royal due to sailing her many times when the children were young,I am not loyal to any specific Line.

I choose by price and destination.

I will tell you that EVERY  one of these Lines has fallen in service, food and and entertainment since before Covid. Some ships are better than others and all of the above categories are subjective anyway, but anyone looking for that magic cruise line that will make you perfectly happy is going to be disappointed. 
I can still cruise and be happy with the positives that I can find while being on a ship, although I am noticing the decline of what was once my favorite way to travel.

[ncgolferette]

It certainly is different strokes for different folks.  I was on the Oosterdam in October and I thought the food and entertainment was mediocre at best.  My dinner in the Pinnacle was not good.  Certain folks can slam  for me this but the server brought me the mint jelly for my lamb chops in the Polandar jelly jar. So much for fine dinning!  Overall the crew was great.  I am much more impressed with Celebrity at this point and taking my first Oceania cruise from Tokyo next month.  It will be interesting to see how it compares to Hank’s cruise on the Westerdam.

Edited May 13, 2023 by ncgolferette

[Florida_gal_50]

38 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

What you're proposing is a fundamental mismatch. Why did people keep coming back to HAL?  Smaller ships, not larger ones.

 

Smaller ships lead to itineraries that could go places where the large ships cannot go. If HAL sells off the smaller ships and focuses on the larger ones, they have much less to offer and are moving away from, not toward, what they used to be.

 

We've become anesthetized to the size of ships because they keep getting bigger. Carrying 2,000 passengers no longer seems large because there are ships that carry two times, even three times as many. But unfortunately port sizes do not change, and HAL has already "lost" many ports of call due to not having smaller ships. Why am I cruising with Azamara and Oceania later this year?  Not because of better food or entertainment (as if!), but because their ships call on ports that bigger lines do not. And in future I strongly suspect we will see more "interesting" ports (like Bar Harbor, like Key West, like Venice) that become off limits to larger ships.

 

Let the Pinnacle class ships sail the basic itineraries to Caribbean, Alaska, Mexico. I have no interest getting aboard one to sail the Med or Asia or other interesting longer cruises. When I see the name of one of those ships on my search, I just pass it by. The crowding in the MDR, for example, is not going to be fixed by hiring more staff -- it's a fundamental design flaw on these ships:  too many people and too few spaces designed to accommodate them without feeling crowded.

 

I’m no fan of the older ships.  I do not like the ornate decor or lack of amenities.  I do agree with you on using the smaller ships for the longer, more unique itineraries and have mentioned this repeatedly.  It makes perfect sense to do so. While I’m not crazy about the 7 days cruises, I’m in no position to take ultra long vacations.  I just don’t have the vacation time. I’d love to see more 10 to 14 day cruises where I can easily get on the ship without flying for days.

[Florida_gal_50]

23 minutes ago, ncgolferette said:

It certainly is different strokes for different folks.  I was on the Oosterdam in October and I thought the food and entertainment was mediocre at best.  My dinner in the Pinnacle was not good.  Certain folks can slam  for me this but the server brought me the mint jelly for my lamb chops in the Polandar jelly jar. So much for fine dinning!  Overall the crew was great.  I am much more impressed with Celebrity at this point and taking my first Oceania cruise from Tokyo next month.  It will be interesting to see how it compares to Hank’s cruise on the Westerdam.

The pinnacle is easily the worst specialty restaurant.   It’s been my experience that they seem to run around like chickens with their heads cut off. I don’t notice this in any other specialty restaurant.  When I first started dining in the pinnacle both the service and food was so much better.   

[HappyInVan]

I'm alarmed by the constant barrage of low deposits offered for new bookings. There's the $1 deposit+HIA, $25 deposit, $1 deposit, now $150 deposit for the '150 Anniversary '. How long will the latest drag on.

 

Pax are being trained to wait for the next deal .

 

By now, HAL must realize that many $1 deposits are 'speculative'. Prices are back to breakeven levels. A reflection of the over-capacity in the industry. Even Viking was offering $25 deposits for its 25th Anniversary.

 

For HAL, the immediate problem is cashflow. Those $1 deposits generate negligible cashflow whilst the ships still need to be resupplied and maintained.

 

And, all their cost cutting has cost them dearly. 

 

Just back from a Alaska cruise on the KO. Horrible embarkation in Vancouver. Incredible wait to board in Skagway, as 500 returning pax from the White Pass excursion met 00s of pax leaving for the 1pm departure on the only gangway. Right now, I'm almost along in the Crow's Nest and disembarkation is still 30 minutes away. Bet half the ship is already waiting to disembark on the lower decks. I am supposed to have CO priority at 0800. I'll let you know how it goes.

[BermudaBound2014]

16 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Prices are back to breakeven levels.

 

What do you mean by this comment? RCL reported to the SEC that they sailed at 102% occupancy last quarter and still lost money. As a whole, CCL is no where near break even financially based on their quarterly releases. Not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand what you mean.

 

As a side note: I believe it's widely accepted that the low deposits are a way for cruise lines to continue to boast 'record bookings.' 

Edited May 13, 2023 by BermudaBound2014

[Florida_gal_50]

18 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

I'm alarmed by the constant barrage of low deposits offered for new bookings. There's the $1 deposit+HIA, $25 deposit, $1 deposit, now $150 deposit for the '150 Anniversary '. How long will the latest drag on.

 

Pax are being trained to wait for the next deal .

 

By now, HAL must realize that many $1 deposits are 'speculative'. Prices are back to breakeven levels. A reflection of the over-capacity in the industry. Even Viking was offering $25 deposits for its 25th Anniversary.

 

For HAL, the immediate problem is cashflow. Those $1 deposits generate negligible cashflow whilst the ships still need to be resupplied and maintained.

 

And, all their cost cutting has cost them dearly. 

 

Just back from a Alaska cruise on the KO. Horrible embarkation in Vancouver. Incredible wait to board in Skagway, as 500 returning pax from the White Pass excursion met 00s of pax leaving for the 1pm departure on the only gangway. Right now, I'm almost along in the Crow's Nest and disembarkation is still 30 minutes away. Bet half the ship is already waiting to disembark on the lower decks. I am supposed to have CO priority at 0800. I'll let you know how it goes.

That is just stupid to only have one gangway open at a port.  That’s just going to be a disaster.  Part of the problem for disembarkation is people that have to stand in the gangway area hours and hours before disembarkation.  Every cruise I’ve been on there are multiple announcements not to do that. It must be for other people, not them.  

[KAKcruiser]

I think that one person's experience will always be different from another.  It depends on many factors.  I have been on the same ship 6 months apart.  On one sailing it was the best cruise ever and the other sailing it was the worse ever.  Why?  Maybe a change in management or something else?  The best you can do is make an educated guess and go for it.  Maybe it will work out and maybe it won't.  This is life.

[DCThunder]

3 hours ago, Ellencruise said:

I’m also booked on Oosterdam for Med. I loved it for SA this March. No complaints

Totally agree.  I'm another 31-day veteran of the South America cruise.  I find it very hard to believe that the Oosterdam has been transformed into a hellship in the six weeks since I disembarked in Port Everglades in early April.

 

But I'm only a Two Star, so what do I know...🤷‍♂️

[aliaschief]

We sailed on the Eurodam for twenty days last month. It was a wonderful cruise. We also cruise with Azamara. There are still supply issues at times. On both lines we have witnessed officers not accepting poor quality produce. Unavailability of certain wines or spirits.
Since last summer we have cruised over sixty days on Hal and have enjoyed each cruise but the last one on Eurodam was fantastic. Great food, entertainment and a very happy and proficient crew.

We have been told they are in need of more assistant waiters but the service we had at fixed upper late was like days of yore. Great waiter who actually had time to talk to us and in an out in less then an hour or at our leisure.

We have noticed and heard complaints about early dining. It appears that the main cause is that there are so many guest that want to dine at the same time resulting in long lines to get in and slow service. Late fixed dining had many unoccupied tables.

At one time during our last cruise there were up to 58 confirmed cases of Covid. We really appreciated the Captain keeping us up to date and how many cases we had on board. For a few days crew went back to wearing mask and many of us guest also heeded the Captain voluntarily request for guest to wear mask.

Though most of our upcoming cruises are with Azamara we will definitely be up to cruising with Hal on longer voyages. We find the short or back to back cruises lacking and repetitious. Fortunately we are able to enjoy longer cruises.

[Florida_gal_50]

16 minutes ago, DCThunder said:

Totally agree.  I'm another 31-day veteran of the South America cruise.  I find it very hard to believe that the Oosterdam has been transformed into a hellship in the six weeks since I disembarked in Port Everglades in early April.

 

But I'm only a Two Star, so what do I know...🤷‍♂️

I think length of cruise makes a huge difference.  No way is a 7 day cruise the same as a month long cruise.  I'm not saying the Oosterdam is doing 7 day cruises right now.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

5 hours ago, albingirl said:

I appreciate reading reviews, but I am usually astonished by very negative ones. These are from people who continue to sail with HAL.  If they are that disappointed, maybe sailing on other lines would be better for them.  Oh, people here say that I should just scroll by, but it's kind of like a train wreck that you can't help seeing.

I do sail on other lines and that is how I know that HAL could be doing a LOT better job in numerous areas also know they use to be very competive. Since My last HAL cruise which was July on the Rotterdam that over all I was not at all impressed with. Specifically all dining options, lack of crew and service and the entertainment even on the Rotterdam. The Main stage was the same stuff I have seen numerous times. It really does get old after a while. Possibly if some ships had different shows??? But I do sail on other lines. After July last year was on the NCL Bliss in November, this was an amazing cruise. One of the best in the last 5 years. Full capacity of passengers. Yes Entertainment had already started to be cut back but there is entertainment all over the place. They have some of the best Specialty restaurants at sea. While we book Haven we usually only eat evening meals once or twice a week in the Haven Restaurant. Too many other great meals to be had on the ship. In December we were on the Discovery Princess, we had not sailed Princess since just weeks before the shut down in February 2020. We did see obvious cutbacks especially in the Main Dining Room and felt the Quality of their Specialty Dining had also gone down. But their pricing for Specialty dining was less than HAL and NCL. But what was great was their Entertainment. The shows were absolutely amazing, there was entertainment every where ont he ship. Lots of music, great people watching in the Piazza. I have to admit we had lots of fun each and every day and evening. Princess earned more points in my book with that cruise.

Next was February 2023 we flew to Miami for the NCL Encore, again we were in the Haven, actually everything was perfection it was perfect and yes if money was no object I would be sailing NCL Haven for for every cruise I ever booked but...... right now I think NCL has over priced themselves. To book the same cruise we did in February for the same suite for next February the price is within a few dollars of double what we previously paid. Yes, I love NCL and yes they also have had cutbacks not nearly to to extend of HAL but I draw the line on the extreme over paying. But the difference with NCL and HAL those staterooms are selling at the high prices and they are not cutting the prices as much as HAL. The few prices they have cut after final they are actually giving back to passengers in the form of Future Cruise Credit at 100% of the difference.

Why I am returning to HAL..., well old habits are hard to break, I keep hoping to see improvements and we are 11 days from reaching our 300 day medallion, and our second cruise with HAL this year we will hit 5 Star on about the 2nd day. You might say it was always a challenge to try to get to the next level. We had originally always thought we would go after our 500 days but both DH and I have given up on that. That is not going to happen. There are too many other cruise lines out there that we enjoy.

I do have hope that Holland America can turn around. But they really need to start to make improvements now because there are many of us that want to travel and ready to spend money. Ten years ago I still cruised other lines but strongly would always go to HAL not so any more. 

[grannyshell]

8 hours ago, southamptoncruisers said:

Where are these reviews? I'm on the Oosterdam this July and have been following CC for information, as we have never sailed HAL, I've not noticed anything to alarm me. 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/getreviews.cfm?action=ship&ShipID=283

 

So many poor reviews. We were on the Nieuw Statendam last fall so would expect a similar experience on the Oosterdam but these reviews don't even sound like the same cruise line. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by grannyshell

[ShipsAreTheBest]

If your last cruise was on the Rotterdam in July, that was almost 10 months ago at this point.  I was on the Rotterdam in October and Zaandam in January.  Things are getting better, but there are still some small issues but nothing I would consider a showstopper.  We also sailed Zaandam last May.  Her third cruise back.  The experience then, while not terrible, was not what I was used to.  By January, the ship and crew have hit their stride, service and food was fantastic and no supply chain issues.  I was forgiving of the May 2022 trip because I understood the circumstances.  
 

Entertainment has always been a weak point, but to be fair, I don’t need a lot all the time.  Comedians and specialty acts are usually good, the Music Walk on the larger ships are always a hit.  I’m not a fan of production shows, but that’s me. I respect the talent of the artists and I also understand the logistics (read: money) that it takes to develop these shows.   Not a lot of extra cash flow around right now to develop more. 

What’s been interesting to me is to read comments from (or have spoken directly with)  RCCL, Carnival, and NCL loyalists who, because of a really good deal, decided to give HAL a try.  They are always overwhelmingly impressed and have discovered what they’ve  been missing and say they’ll be back.  I think as people mature, they realize they don’t need to be go-go-go all the time and want an experience more like HAL delivers.

Edited May 13, 2023 by ShipsAreTheBest

[southamptoncruisers]

14 minutes ago, grannyshell said:

https://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/getreviews.cfm?action=ship&ShipID=283

 

So many poor reviews. We were on the Nieuw Statendam last fall so would expect a similar experience on the Oosterdam but these reviews don't even sound like the same cruise line. 

Thanks for the link. 

[rodndonna]

23 minutes ago, ShipsAreTheBest said:

If your last cruise was on the Rotterdam in July, that was almost 10 months ago at this point.  I was on the Rotterdam in October and Zaandam in January.  Things are getting better, but there are still some small issues but nothing I would consider a showstopper.  We also sailed Zaandam last May.  Her third cruise back.  The experience then, while not terrible, was not what I was used to.  By January, the ship and crew have hit their stride, service and food was fantastic and no supply chain issues.  I was forgiving of the May 2022 trip because I understood the circumstances.  

 

I agree. Since coming out of Covid - the timeframe is a huge factor. Our first HAL cruise coming out of Covid was Dec 2021 (the emergence of Omicron), we then sailed Jun 2022, Sept 2022 and then Dec 2022 . The experiences across those 4 sailings in a 1 year timeframe were QUITE different with the last being the best of the four. 

[OlsSalt]

27 minutes ago, grannyshell said:

https://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/getreviews.cfm?action=ship&ShipID=283

 

So many poor reviews. We were on the Nieuw Statendam last fall so would expect a similar experience on the Oosterdam but these reviews don't even sound like the same cruise line. 

 

 

The real issue is HAL has become "two different cruise lines" so there can be no apples to apples comparisons between the "old Hal" and the "new Hal".

 

They are two different products. One smaller, more traditional and more travel and destination oriented. The other more on-board experience oriented but lacking the variety of destinations and dedication to the longer onboard cruise experiences, which were the real hallmark of the "older" HAL.

 

Compare HAL ships within their class categories is the better course, but not necessarily each separate class against each other, as each class of ships will be capable of offering different experiences by size, design of ship and the interests of passengers each ship will draw.

 

Some long time HAL passengers are very comfortable moving among the various classes; other find their own sweet spot and stick to it.

 

We personally are R-Class and Vista Class HAL passengers and those are where our own HAL cruise choices continue to be made. The larger, newer Pinnacle class was like an alien world to us and unlikely we will ever chose it again. But others love and warmly welcome it, and we all call ourselves HAL passengers.

 

(1) R-Class - (2) Vista Class - (3) (Eurodam-Nieuw Amsterdam class??) - (4) Pinnacle class.

[OlsSalt]

If it is any comfort the most scathing review I ever read was right before we were to embark on our first HAL cruise on the old Maasdam in 2009 - "bucket of rust, stinky and should have  been sent to the wrecking yards for scrap years ago" pretty much sums up what we read about her back then. I believe that same person continues to write "reviews" for HAL ships here today.

 

Oh dear, did we make a tragic error?  She did have some pretty bizarre decor choices, or decor by fire sale default, but we fell in love with her and HAL anyway. And never looked back.

 

And that very same "ready for the scrap heap"  ship years later gave us some of our very best HAL cruise experiences when she offered the Maasdam In-Depth cruises with grand itineraries and dedicated high enrichment. We were so sorry to see her finally go prior to the "covid" shutdowns. 

[Ottawa traveller]

I've finally decided to add my two cents to this issue.  I was on the Westerdam in March-April on a 28 day B2B around Japan.  There was a daily blog being posted about the cruise on this page which was mostly complaints and I read it every day and wondered if I was on the same cruise. I will concede his points about shortages of alcohol and issues with charges that needed to be corrected. I don't drink alcohol so I did not have that experience.  I know that we did reprovision in Keelung, Taiwan and Busan, Korea where they also picked up a part to repair one of the azipods.   This was a port intensive cruise - 20 ports with 11 in a row in the middle of it.  I checked the maritime traffic  maps from time to time and we were the only large international ship in those waters. I do know that a couple of smaller ones from Oceania and Seabourn (I think) were there. We visited ports that larger ships could not possibly have stopped at due to the small size of the local towns.  This is where HAL excels.  I found myself so busy touring during the day that I had very little energy for late evening entertainment. The ship had come out of a recent drydock. I was so impressed with the linen and draperies in the cabin that I asked if they were new. Apparently some were and the rest just professionally cleaned. The carpets were cleaned during the cruise. Everything in the cabin  (a VA) was in excellent shape.  The cabin stewards were excellent. I thought they were maybe the friendliest and most helpful in all my sailing days. I would say the same about my Dining Room stewards.  I went to the Front Office a few times with questions and they were quickly and politely dealt with.  I have rebooked on the Westerdam for next fall and the Oosterdam for January because I really want to go where they are sailing.

[BermudaBound2014]

27 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

They are two different products. One smaller, more traditional and more travel and destination oriented. The other more on-board experience oriented but lacking the variety of destinations and dedication to the longer onboard cruise experiences, which were the real hallmark of the "older" HAL.

 

The Koningsdam has been doing longer cruises for a few years. For example;18-19 nights to Hawaii. 35 night cruise to Tahiti. It seems HAL isn't saving all their longer cruises for the smaller gals, although I suppose some may consider Hawaii and Tahiti destinations lacking variety.

 

What exactly does the Koningsdam have in terms of 'on board experiences' that the other ships are lacking?

[Oceansaway17]

21 hours ago, LAFFNVEGAS said:

I debated if to write this under two of the active threads on the Westerdam or just state my opinion seperately. I decided to do the latter.Below is just my personal thoughts and things that keep coming to mind as I have been reading many posts over the last several weeks. I have been closely following Westerdam since we will be sailing on her in September and loved following the Live From Japan thread by Hank.

 

I think we need to come to the realization that Holland America may be at a Cross Roads of Sinking or Cruising. I know that many HAL Loyalist like to look at the cruise line with Rose Colored Glasses but there are some facts coming out that one cannot deny. 

 

I can remember a few years back like 6 or 7 that the TA on board ships had a saying --- "Westie is the bestie"   guessing not so much any more..

I see changes even on RCI.  Some items I used to like are no longer available on ships like this one cookie they had with vanilla chips and cashews.  supply chain issues I guess.

I think HAL is trying to keep longer cruises so as to not have party ships or families.  I think they need to have at least one in FLA to compete with RCI, and CCL.  

Also closing down some of the well liked music venues might be hurting them a bit too.

[XLVIII]

During the shutdown, Carnival Corp was spending $650 million A MONTH just to keep everything running. They have undertaken massive debt just to stay viable as a corporation. HAL’s number one job right now is to stay afloat as a company. I’m sure they are quite aware of what the cutbacks effects have been, and would have preferred to avoid them as well. 

[CNSJ]

4 hours ago, trivia addict said:

I have sailed on HAL, Royal, Celebrity and Norwegian since cruising started up again. Although almost a Diamond Plus on Royal due to sailing her many times when the children were young,I am not loyal to any specific Line.

I choose by price and destination.

I will tell you that EVERY  one of these Lines has fallen in service, food and and entertainment since before Covid. Some ships are better than others and all of the above categories are subjective anyway, but anyone looking for that magic cruise line that will make you perfectly happy is going to be disappointed. 
I can still cruise and be happy with the positives that I can find while being on a ship, although I am noticing the decline of what was once my favorite way to travel.

Agree with you Trivia Addict, but its not just cruises.... Hotels, Airlines, etc.  ALL have had slips in service. Part of its labor issues, part of its cost.  We have hyper inflation and the industry (travel) has been gut punched.  I have more patience than most I am afraid.....