Prepaid Gratuities

[Another_Critic]

30 minutes ago, kruzgal said:

Agreed. P&O UK have done this and I feel so much more comfortable with this arrangement. I feel sorry for Royal staff as when ships sail from the UK there are queues of people at guest services lining up to remove ‘gratuities’. We just don’t have the same tipping culture and it all feels so awkward. I really hate it. 

The problem is that Royal is calling them Gratuities when they are actually a daily service charge.  Royal needs to call them what they are.

 

U.S. "tips" are service charges/wage subsidies, they are not TIPS.

[karena1]

On 6/4/2023 at 10:41 PM, OHagan said:

...also...if you don't want to pay gratuities, then the cruise line can not enforce this. Many Australians cancel their gratuities onboard as we are not used to paying tips or such.

Sad, just sad.  They work so hard for you.

[Ret MP]

2 hours ago, Another_Critic said:

The problem is that Royal is calling them Gratuities when they are actually a daily service charge.  Royal needs to call them what they are.

 

U.S. "tips" are service charges/wage subsidies, they are not TIPS.

I honestly don't care what you call it, there will be people that will do everything in their power to avoid paying tip(s).  There will always be those that don't think that there is a need to tip regardless of the level of service.  If tips/gratuities/service charges are made compulsory, these same folks will line up complaining to the manager demanding a full refund of the tip/gratuity/service charge and/or a free meal or whatever was provided.  

 

BTW, if you look at the definitions of tip, gratuity, and service charge, they are all related to each other.  A tip is a gratuity.  Gratuity is a tip. Service Charge is either a tip or gratuity (except that a Service Charge can be compulsory and the customer has no options, that's one of many reasons I don't care for anything other than voluntary tipping/gratuities).  So, nothing would change.  Tomaaaatos/Tomooootos. JMHO

 

And another BTW, my intent is not to argue.  Just a discussion with someone that has a slightly different view of a very minor subject.  

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Ret MP

[taglovestocruise]

3 hours ago, Ret MP said:

LOL, me too!

 

 

BTW:  Your mileage may vary but to me, the cruise fare is the Bottom Line, the Total Charges.  But, there are certain options, of course.

I would call the top line the cruise fare. There should be no gratuities of any kind listed separately. That is the only way everyone pays the same. 

[Ret MP]

2 hours ago, taglovestocruise said:

I would call the top line the cruise fare. There should be no gratuities of any kind listed separately. That is the only way everyone pays the same. 

Well, "Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are mandatory to pay, you have no option other than not booking the cruise.  I'd call that part of the "Cruise Fare" as long as it is what shows up on the final payment on the final payment date, including Graguites if elected to pre-pay.  The Bottom Line is the Bottom Line.  

 

And "everyone pays the same" is exactly what I'm against.  If you get great service and I get crappy service, should I pay the same as you?  If so, why?  Should the great server get the same compensation as the one that gives pooooooooor service?  If so, why?

 

But, that's my opinion.  It doesn't have to be yours.  But, if RCCL sends out a questionnaire/survey about this issue (which I doubt will ever happen), I'll be sure to vote against any change that makes gratuities/service charges/tipping a compulsory expense. 

 

As a side note:  I really don't like the 18% tip added on the bar tab on the ships, either.  But, it is what it is.  To be honest, in my case only, I believe the servers would do better if there wasn't that compulsory 18% even though I tip at least $2.00 above the final bill in cash IF the service was very good.  

[topnole]

3 hours ago, taglovestocruise said:

I would call the top line the cruise fare. There should be no gratuities of any kind listed separately. That is the only way everyone pays the same. 

People pay different prices for the same cabins anyhow. So folks will pay varying prices regardless.  

[Cigar King]

22 hours ago, Ret MP said:

It is already like that, here in the U.S.  However, you have the option to remove the pre-paid Gratuity.

It's not.  Can I decide to remove other portions of my cruise fare?  No.  When it's treated like the rest of the fare, then I'll consider it included.

[Ret MP]

6 hours ago, Cigar King said:

It's not.  Can I decide to remove other portions of my cruise fare?  No.  When it's treated like the rest of the fare, then I'll consider it included.

And that's your option and opinion!  Just doesn't happen to be mine.

[Cigar King]

I'm sorry, but it's not an opinion.  I can't opt out of any portion of the cruise fare.  I can, if choose, opt out of the gratuities.  This is a fact.

[Hutcha]

On 6/6/2023 at 3:43 PM, Ret MP said:

LOL, me too!

 

 

BTW:  Your mileage may vary but to me, the cruise fare is the Bottom Line, the Total Charges.  But, there are certain options, of course.

You are just pre-paying the gratuity. It is not part of the cruise fare, and you can have it removed. It was probably put there by your TA.

 

Actually, now that I look at it, It's there so that they can show that it's part of your Star class inclusions. You are not paying it.

[Another_Critic]

4 minutes ago, Hutcha said:

Actually, now that I look at it, It's there so that they can show that it's part of your Star class inclusions. You are not paying it.

At $5377.35 for Guest #1, he IS paying it.  😄

[FamilyCruiserUK]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:37 PM, kruzgal said:

Agreed. P&O UK have done this and I feel so much more comfortable with this arrangement. I feel sorry for Royal staff as when ships sail from the UK there are queues of people at guest services lining up to remove ‘gratuities’. We just don’t have the same tipping culture and it all feels so awkward. I really hate it. 

MSC have also done it for UK based bookers. If you use a different country website to book the same cruise you are charged graturites. When we went and chatted to the hotel manager they said their market research showed uk passengers prefer it that way as they know right away what they are paying BEFORE the final price page and its cultural as well. As well as kettles in the rooms. 

We dont have the same tipping culture, thankfully as others have said its a reward.  We do tip but its above and beyond not just expected, or just added to the bill. In that case just call it a service charge.

[RedIguana]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:52 PM, Ret MP said:

Service Charge is either a tip or gratuity

In the US a service charge is not a "tip or gratuity". You are lead to believe that, but a service charge belongs to the business, with no legal requirement that it is passed on to the staff, unlike the legal requirements to pay out "tips" .

 

 

 

 

On 6/6/2023 at 10:06 PM, Ret MP said:

Well, "Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are mandatory to pay, you have no option other than not booking the cruise.  I'd call that part of the "Cruise Fare"

"Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are kept separate as they are refundable in part or in full in some cases, with different criteria than the fare may fall under. Also to separate from revenue.

[Ret MP]

4 hours ago, Hutcha said:

You are just pre-paying the gratuity. It is not part of the cruise fare, and you can have it removed. It was probably put there by your TA.

 

Actually, now that I look at it, It's there so that they can show that it's part of your Star class inclusions. You are not paying it.

No, that was just to show that the Gratuities are part of the total fare, if you elect to pre-pay them.  That example is for a Star Class booking that I have going on now,  gratuities are always show but then credited, you'll notice that it is credited right under the Gratuities.  The credit is called:  "TYV4-STAR SAVINGS".

 

And like I've said, again and again, this is how I feel about the bottom line, you are free to feel differently.  Please see my previous posts for context.  

 

BTW, the "Cruise Fare" is refundable in certain situations, TOO!

 

BTW again, yes I did read your last paragraph.  

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Ret MP

[Ret MP]

18 hours ago, Cigar King said:

I'm sorry, but it's not an opinion.  I can't opt out of any portion of the cruise fare.  I can, if choose, opt out of the gratuities.  This is a fact.

Geeeeeeeesh, some of you think I'm trying to change your outlook on life.  I'm only saying that the "bottom line" is the "cruise fare", FOR ME!  You're welcome to hold a different OPINION.  It is my opinion that the bottom line, again, it the bottom line and part of the "cruise fare".  I'm not arguing with you, I'm stating my opinion and how I look at how I define things, how I develop my opinion.  

 

And, you can OPT OUT of a "cruise fare", you don't have to take the cruise and some or all will be refunded to your CC or FCCed OR if you find a cheaper "cruise fare" for the same cruise, category, you get a credit for the difference.  So, the "cruise fare" isn't as static as some would like others to believe.  So, "I can't opt out of any portion of the cruise fare", isn't exactly fact!

[Ret MP]

3 hours ago, RedIguana said:

In the US a service charge is not a "tip or gratuity". You are lead to believe that, but a service charge belongs to the business, with no legal requirement that it is passed on to the staff, unlike the legal requirements to pay out "tips" .

Apparently, you didn't read what I said/typed.  I said, definition - "BTW, if you look at the definitions of tip, gratuity, and service charge, they are all related to each other.  A tip is a gratuity.  Gratuity is a tip. Service Charge is either a tip or gratuity (except that a Service Charge can be compulsory and the customer has no options, that's one of many reasons I don't care for anything other than voluntary tipping/gratuities).  So, nothing would change.  Tomaaaatos/Tomooootos. JMHO".  AND, I'd check each state's laws before making such a claim.  Each has its own labor laws on top of the Federal labor laws.  

3 hours ago, RedIguana said:

"Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are kept separate as they are refundable in part or in full in some cases, with different criteria than the fare may fall under. Also to separate from revenue.

But, the "Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are paid upfront and you only get credit for them if you don't visit a port and it's only a portion of the total Taxes, .............  But, there is still that upfront cost of the cruise that must be paid.  If you don't miss a port, guess what <that's not a real question.  The bottom line is the bottom line and it includes all expenses that it takes to make a booking and, again, must be paid in full, first/by the final payment date or booking after the final payment date.  

 

 

[RedIguana]

47 minutes ago, Ret MP said:

Apparently, you didn't read what I said/typed.  I said, definition 

OK, by DEFINITION, tips or gratuities are not the same as a service charge. You can try and spin it any way you want, but they have different qualities, properties, and ownership. 

 

54 minutes ago, Ret MP said:

But, the "Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are paid upfront and you only get credit for them if you don't visit a port and it's only a portion of the total Taxes

You also get credit for them for a canceled cruised where your cruise fare may be in the penalty phase, or for a no show for a cabin, where "Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are fully refunded. Wrapping these into a single fare would cause quite a few legal issues when refunding partial or retaining fares due to cancellation in the penalty phase, or due to decreases between booking and sailing, not to mention the tax complication by including them as revenue vs pass through. I am aware they must be paid upfront, but the discussion was just rolling them all into one charge.

[Ret MP]

2 minutes ago, RedIguana said:

OK, by DEFINITION, tips or gratuities are not the same as a service charge. You can try and spin it any way you want, but they have different qualities, properties, and ownership. 

 

You also get credit for them for a canceled cruised where your cruise fare may be in the penalty phase, or for a no show for a cabin, where "Taxes, Fees, and Port Expenses" are fully refunded. Wrapping these into a single fare would cause quite a few legal issues when refunding partial or retaining fares due to cancellation in the penalty phase, or due to decreases between booking and sailing, not to mention the tax complication by including them as revenue vs pass through. I am aware they must be paid upfront, but the discussion was just rolling them all into one charge.

Okay, enough is enough, you and others seem to want to make this what it isn't intended or stated.  My last comment(s):  I never suggested, not one bit, that the line items be merged into the "Cruise Fare", not once and I don't care about any ramifications of taxes or anything else because merging ain't gonna happen.  I'm only saying that this is my view/opinion/definition.  It doesn't have to be yours or anybody else's, it's my money, my expenses, and my way of thinking of my expenses, the bottom line.  The bottom line is the bottom line, for me!  Nothing is static, everything has its, and, or buts. And lastly, if you cancel a booking outside of the 75% rule, I believe that is where the penalty starts, you get 100% of your "cruise fare" back minus the deposit and you get the deposit back if you have the refundable fare, that's if they even have a refundable fare/deposit anymore.  

 

Have at it!

[Ret MP]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:29 PM, taglovestocruise said:

I would call the top line the cruise fare. There should be no gratuities of any kind listed separately. That is the only way everyone pays the same. 

I'm done discussing the "Cruise Fare" part of this.  However:

 

I don't want everybody to pay the same!  I like freedom of choice, I like paying for exceptional service, not substandard service.  If you want everyone to pay the same, there should only be one category of cabin, no suites or all suites, no balconies, no windows, and all servers are pre-programmed robots.  I know where you can get where everybody pays the same but It's not allowed to discuss that in here.  And if you really look, everyone in the two different categories (Suites vs Cabins) do pay the same, depending on the suite or not, "As of September 7^th, 2022, the automatic service gratuity of $16.00 USD per person, per day for guests in non-suites staterooms, or $18.50 USD per person, per day for guests in Suites". 

 

There is absolutely no requirement to pay anything else to anyone a gratuity.  As like already stated, you can line up several different people in the same exact category cabin and find that each has paid a different price for the exact same category cabin, it's called dynamic pricing, but they all did pay the exact same for the pre-paid or set sail account option.  And yes, you can go to guest services and modify the gratuity amount.  

 

And, as a side note, you can Google the words "Service Charges" and most sites will acknowledge that gratuities/tips can be incorporated into the/a "Service Charge".  In fact, those restaurants that do charge a "Service Charge" AND pay their servers much more than the prevailing minimum wage, and do pay their servers a portion of that "Service Charge" as their gratuities, it's a wage.  But, it isn't considered a gratuity wage, it's a Service Charge, legally, and taxed as a wage, not a gratuity. But, make no mistake, it's a gratuity if any money from that "Service Charge" goes back to the server, in reality.

 

"In 2012, the IRS made a decision that would impact the classification of automatic gratuities starting in January 2014. Previously, money from automatic gratuity was counted as a tip. With this update from the IRS, automatic gratuity would now count as a service charge, not a tip".  So, no matter how you look at it if an amount of money goes to a server from the Restaurant, it's a tip/gratuity, it's just taxed and/or categorized differently.  Note that the wording says that it would not be "counted" as a tip and it would be "counted" as a Service Charge.  It doesn't say it isn't a tip or isn't a gratuity.  

[paulfoel]

On 6/5/2023 at 9:37 PM, kruzgal said:

Royal Caribbean should just pay their staff properly. Tips should be an extra for good service not what the staff need to live. 

 

Jeez don't embarrass us Brits please - we're not all like that.

 

I don't care if you never tip at home, how many times YOU'RE IN SOMEONE ELSES COUNTRY. RESPECT THAT.

 

Its not hard. It does my chunk in when people from the UK go to the USA and try and tell them how it should work. 360 million people in the US do this all the time, let we visit from the UK and want to tell them how wrong there are.

 

We might think its strange or weird but hard luck. If you'd like it don't visit.

 

[cruiseboy89130]

41 minutes ago, paulfoel said:

We might think its strange or weird but hard luck. If you'd like it don't visit.

But it is optional after all!

[watcher_62]

🍿

[Cigar King]

14 hours ago, Ret MP said:

I'm done discussing the "Cruise Fare" part of this.  However:

You said that before, and yet you keep bringing it up.  Apparently you not only don't know what the word opinion means you also have no self restraint.  Here's a "tip": if you don't want us to change your "opinion" than quit trying to justify it.

[RedIguana]

15 hours ago, Ret MP said:

But, it isn't considered a gratuity wage, it's a Service Charge, legally, and taxed as a wage, not a gratuity.

 

15 hours ago, Ret MP said:

it's a tip/gratuity, it's just taxed and/or categorized differently

Tips, gratuities, and wages are all taxed the same. The differences between service charges and tips (with automatic gratuities being classified as a service charge) have more to do with the employers reporting and withholding requirements. Service charges are revenue to the employer, not the employee, unless some portion is passed on to the employee,  which is then taxed at the same rate as gratuities, tips, or wages.

Edited June 9, 2023 by RedIguana
For the US, I know nothing about other countries tax structures

[Ret MP]

3 hours ago, Cigar King said:

You said that before, and yet you keep bringing it up.  Apparently you not only don't know what the word opinion means you also have no self restraint.  Here's a "tip": if you don't want us to change your "opinion" than quit trying to justify it.

Well, after I said that I was done discussing "Cruise Fare", I didn't mention it again, did I!  Please quote me where I did, if I did.  So, I don't get your point with that.  I think you are reading into something.  What I was discussing after I said I was done discussing "Cruise Fare" Gratuity issues and whether there should be separate Gratuities or not, included Gratuities or not, voluntary Gratuities or not.  And my OPINION is that Gratuities should be voluntary and based upon service, the quality of service, and the promptness of service, not a flat rate that pays servers the same. 

 

I was only responding, not challenging anybody and I don't feel the need to justify anything to you or anybody else.  I'm not rude, in most cases, I answer things, and I don't ignore!  There is only one person in here that I don't respond to.  And you don't know me, you have no idea how much "self-restraint" I have or don't.  And please be specific, if you can, where I misused the word "opinion".  If I state how I feel about something, isn't that by definition an "opinion"?

 

opinion

noun

opin·ion ə-ˈpin-yən 

 

Synonyms of opinion

1

a

: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter