Britannia broke her lines

[Windsurfboy]

Firstly P&O are responsible for the incident. Police stopped talking about road traffic accidents years ago. The is  no such thing as an accident.  There is an incident that happened because of decisions and actions taken or not taken. Starting with the decision to enter port, and many afterwards. These were taken by P&O. This does not mean the captain acted unprofessionally or irresponsibility. However the weather was not out of the blue very bad weather was predicted,  warnings were in place. In the end P&O were responsible, for the consequences of what may have been very sensible actions. 

 

As to the accommodation,  I find it unbelievable that yesterday there were pages and pages of 5 and 4 star hotels available on booking.com but not the day before most people with cancelled flights are stuck for a few days not 1. Yes they were all circa £200, a night. Taking the cheap and easy way out to put everyone in a dump is unacceptable.  Easier to manage but bad consumer service. £15 pp for food indicates P&O see themselves as a cheap holiday camp on sea , not a quality cruise line.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Windsurfboy

[Fionboard]

Love some of the comments by the expert weather forecasters and vessel masters on here (who were not there)! 

[9265359]

14 minutes ago, kalos said:

Captain hindsight can say what he wants about the lorry or the ship but  9/10 they 

were not there .

 

Are you going to tell the Comisión Permanente de Investigación de Accidentes e Incidentes Marítimos that they should not carry out the investigation they are required to do because "they were not there"?

[kalos]

2 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

Are you going to tell the Comisión Permanente de Investigación de Accidentes e Incidentes Marítimos that they should not carry out the investigation they are required to do because "they were not there"?

No I will tell them nothing as I was not there . 

[AchileLauro]

P&O as a company are not without their faults, the usual main criticisms levied against them being poor public relations, dreadful communication and an IT system that often fails them. We as a family have experienced this in the past and have criticised them for it.

 

However on this occasion let's be fair to them and  remind ourselves of three things.

1. The winds were absolutely exceptional.

 

2. It has been the perfect storm for the company, with the disruption of the air traffic system totally frustrating their best efforts to repatriate a limited number of passengers.

 

3. How many of us have ever  attempted to find hotel accommodation at short notice for over 300 people never mind in high season. I certainly wouldn't relish that challenge.

 

Just be thankful that none were seriously injured and that all will return safely home, perhaps not immediately but within a few days.

[9265359]

3 minutes ago, kalos said:

No I will tell them nothing as I was not there . 

 

But will you dismiss the findings of their report as 'captain hindsight' because they were not there when the incident occurred?

[Megabear2]

18 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

There is  no such thing as an accident. 

Of course there are accidents and the ridiculous situation we find ourselves in looking for someone to blame causes long delays on roads while investigators pick over minute details looking for that blame.  The incidious blame culture came in because of insurance companies and lawyers insisting that someone has to be at fault so monetary costs could be passed between them. 

 

There was an accident on the A303 a few months back where the driver of a vehicle was unexpectedly blinded by sun reflecting of a vehicle.  Thankfully no one died but there were unfortunate injuries.  Using the logic of there are no accidents who does the injured party and the police etc blame?  Should the sun be pursued, the innocent car driver driving in front of the car involved in the crash for having a nice shine on his car, the manufacturer of the crashed car for not having good enough tint in the windscreen?

 

Trying to blame someone for absolutely everything has come about because insurance companies and lawyers want someone to blame to pass the financial responsibility off on anyone other than their client.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Megabear2

[kalos]

Going onto fact ..Some folks are at Palma Airport for a Charter back to BHX just after midday 

[cruising.mark.uk]

18 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

 Police stopped talking about road traffic accidents years ago. The is  no such thing as an accident. 

But, what they have not stopped talking about is 'no blame' incidents.  And, neither have insurance companies.  Sometimes, ship happens!  No doubt there will be an investigation by suitably qualified experts and they will draw their own conclusions.  I suspect they'll be better placed to do that than the media and the many keyboard warriors who appear to have appointed themselves as experts despite having no first hand knowledge of what happened.

[9265359]

Just now, kalos said:

Going onto fact ..Some folks are at Palma Airport for a Charter back to BHX just after midday 

 

So time spent in a manky hotel with dodgy food and then a cramped flight back to Birmingham, and then a long coach ride back to Southampton - and instead they could have been enjoying a leisurely sail back to Southampton.

 

Never volunteer. 

[Windsurfboy]

The is a difference  between blame and responsibility. Things can go wrong even if you make sensible decisions. In the end P&O can be held responsible, that as I said doesn't mean they were negligent or unprofessional. 

[crompton21]

Disclaimer, I haven’t a clue what I am on about here, but thought I would share an observation/ ask a question.  
The maritime agency guidelines on mooring appear to have recommendations/regulations stating that only one rope should be used per bollard (where practical). The video showing the ropes snapping has two ropes on one bollard with the adjacent bollard unused.  
Anyone actually know if that situation would be a factor?

[Son of Bare]

3 minutes ago, JeanieC,Aston said:

Exactly!

Even ROSPA acknowledges there is no such thing as an accident.

In 40 yrs in the chemical industry we would go through every incident in the year and the Safety Manager would challenge us to find an ‘accident’,we never could.

 

The P&O incident will be looked at with a fine toothed comb…..as an example.

When told of the impending storm and high winds hitting the dock side of the ship who made the decision that there was enough ropes out.

Why was a decision made not to take the ship out into the bay,,,,it would be safer.

Was the first rope to break weak or frayed,,,who checked them,,,when one rope goes they all go.

Who was checking the tension on the ropes.

At the end of the day the fact the ropes snapped proves there wasn’t enough ropes out.

 

I have to agree with this.

I doubt anyone would be excusing PO/the captain if for whatever reason one of the fleet went down. That's an extreme example, but I doubt there would be any mitigating factors in the minds of observers allowing those responsible for that event off the hook, so why is it any different for this incident?

Because this is a 'minor event' which allows the observer to retain the 'accidents happen' mentality...

[JeanieC,Aston]

3 minutes ago, TigerB said:

 

Well, no need for an investigation now, since Jeanie has definitive proof that there weren't enough ropes.🙄

Sorry I forgot to put question marks into my text,,,,but I suspect you knew I was asking questions,,,not giving definitive reasons.

[scooby1]

Was the weather predicted - Yes

Did the weather even predict Hurricane force winds - Yes

Did the weather talk about unprecedented rain - Yes

 

This wasn't a completely un-expected event. What does a captain do, oh look might be hurricane force winds tomorrow, this thing its like a huge mobile sail what should I do??

 

Were the passengers made aware of the potential of bad weather - it seems not.

Did they ensure a tug was on hand just in case - No they didn't

Did they put extra lines were on and all existing at the right tension to ensure the issue was mitigated - we don't know

Did they review half hourly weather to see if they need to bring in anything on deck or limit people going outside - again it appears not. 

Was the fact there was a drill actually going on meant they were distracted - possibly and this could have been a factor

 

The number of people blindly defending P&O without the merest challenge is worrying at best and I could use far stronger. Yes these weather events can be un-predictable, yes sometimes they aren't as bad as can be made out, but this one was pretty darn bad and as a result a good few people have had the latter half of their holiday ruined as a result and it appears it could potentially have been avoided.

 

One of those things, maybe, could it have been much worse..... yes and thank goodness it wasn't.

 

[JeanieC,Aston]

2 minutes ago, scooby1 said:

Was the weather predicted - Yes

Did the weather even predict Hurricane force winds - Yes

Did the weather talk about unprecedented rain - Yes

 

This wasn't a completely un-expected event. What does a captain do, oh look might be hurricane force winds tomorrow, this thing its like a huge mobile sail what should I do??

 

Were the passengers made aware of the potential of bad weather - it seems not.

Did they ensure a tug was on hand just in case - No they didn't

Did they put extra lines were on and all existing at the right tension to ensure the issue was mitigated - we don't know

Did they review half hourly weather to see if they need to bring in anything on deck or limit people going outside - again it appears not. 

Was the fact there was a drill actually going on meant they were distracted - possibly and this could have been a factor

 

The number of people blindly defending P&O without the merest challenge is worrying at best and I could use far stronger. Yes these weather events can be un-predictable, yes sometimes they aren't as bad as can be made out, but this one was pretty darn bad and as a result a good few people have had the latter half of their holiday ruined as a result and it appears it could potentially have been avoided.

 

One of those things, maybe, could it have been much worse..... yes and thank goodness it wasn't.

 

Good questions to ask.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

Firstly P&O are responsible for the incident. Police stopped talking about road traffic accidents years ago. The is  no such thing as an accident.  There is an incident that happened because of decisions and actions taken or not taken. Starting with the decision to enter port, and many afterwards. These were taken by P&O. This does not mean the captain acted unprofessionally or irresponsibility. However the weather was not out of the blue very bad weather was predicted,  warnings were in place. In the end P&O were responsible, for the consequences of what may have been very sensible actions. 

 

As to the accommodation,  I find it unbelievable that yesterday there were pages and pages of 5 and 4 star hotels available on booking.com but not the day before most people with cancelled flights are stuck for a few days not 1. Yes they were all circa £200, a night. Taking the cheap and easy way out to put everyone in a dump is unacceptable.  Easier to manage but bad consumer service. £15 pp for food indicates P&O see themselves as a cheap holiday camp on sea , not a quality cruise line.

I wonder what your views about the lost port of call would have been, with lots of passengers complaining that they had missed the only port they really wanted to see, especially if the forecast bad weather had not been as severe in Palma?

[9265359]

9 minutes ago, lancashire_cruisers said:

Well this thread has gone the way I thought it would 😂 Amazon must be thrilled to have sold so many copies of Cruise ship docking for dummies and emergency planning for dummies over the last couple of days 😂🙄

 

It has, with the the P&O cheerleaders 'rah, rah, rahing' away.

 

Was it good that the ship came loose from her berth - well no it wasn't and P&O were damn lucky that nobody was killed or seriously injured.

 

Will the maritime accident investigators look into it and decide whether the captain and ship's crew did everything they should have done with the information they had available - lines, tugs, moving off the mooring in advance, etc. - of course they will rather than just shrug their shoulder and say 'stuff happens'.

 

Should P&O have treated the paying passengers that they removed from the ship better - quite probably, but their 'emergency planning' seems to focus on minimising costs (cheap hotels and getting the ship back so it doesn't have to refund the next cruise) rather than keeping the paying customers happy.

[Megabear2]

3 minutes ago, scooby1 said:

Was the weather predicted - Yes

Did the weather even predict Hurricane force winds - Yes

Did the weather talk about unprecedented rain - Yes

 

This wasn't a completely un-expected event. What does a captain do, oh look might be hurricane force winds tomorrow, this thing its like a huge mobile sail what should I do??

 

Were the passengers made aware of the potential of bad weather - it seems not.

Did they ensure a tug was on hand just in case - No they didn't

Did they put extra lines were on and all existing at the right tension to ensure the issue was mitigated - we don't know

Did they review half hourly weather to see if they need to bring in anything on deck or limit people going outside - again it appears not. 

Was the fact there was a drill actually going on meant they were distracted - possibly and this could have been a factor

 

The number of people blindly defending P&O without the merest challenge is worrying at best and I could use far stronger. Yes these weather events can be un-predictable, yes sometimes they aren't as bad as can be made out, but this one was pretty darn bad and as a result a good few people have had the latter half of their holiday ruined as a result and it appears it could potentially have been avoided.

 

One of those things, maybe, could it have been much worse..... yes and thank goodness it wasn't.

 

I'm certainly not defending anyone.  What I believe is that there will be an investigation and enquiry and that will apportion blame where necessary if there is any to be had.  If heads need to roll or be banged together no doubt that will happen.  Newspaper hysteria is dying down. Let the relevant authorities deal with it.  It is not helpful to say what if this or that had occurred, fact is thankfully it didn't.

 

No matter how much people discuss this on forums, social media or through the press there actually aren't any useful answers to be found here, just a lot of hot air between a small group who think they know best.

 

Any person caught up in all this, particularly if they are stuck in Majorca, might be reading these forums and all this conjecture will only add to their anxiety and anger.  

[Megabear2]

7 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

It has, with the the P&O cheerleaders 'rah, rah, rahing' away.

 

Was it good that the ship came loose from her berth - well no it wasn't and P&O were damn lucky that nobody was killed or seriously injured.

 

Will the maritime accident investigators look into it and decide whether the captain and ship's crew did everything they should have done with the information they had available - lines, tugs, moving off the mooring in advance, etc. - of course they will rather than just shrug their shoulder and say 'stuff happens'.

 

Should P&O have treated the paying passengers that they removed from the ship better - quite probably, but their 'emergency planning' seems to focus on minimising costs (cheap hotels and getting the ship back so it doesn't have to refund the next cruise) rather than keeping the paying customers happy.

Any opinion on the similar event with QM2 in Italy the other week, or is it only P&O who do it wrong?

[majortom10]

11 minutes ago, scooby1 said:

Was the weather predicted - Yes

Did the weather even predict Hurricane force winds - Yes

Did the weather talk about unprecedented rain - Yes

 

This wasn't a completely un-expected event. What does a captain do, oh look might be hurricane force winds tomorrow, this thing its like a huge mobile sail what should I do??

 

Were the passengers made aware of the potential of bad weather - it seems not.

Did they ensure a tug was on hand just in case - No they didn't

Did they put extra lines were on and all existing at the right tension to ensure the issue was mitigated - we don't know

Did they review half hourly weather to see if they need to bring in anything on deck or limit people going outside - again it appears not. 

Was the fact there was a drill actually going on meant they were distracted - possibly and this could have been a factor

 

The number of people blindly defending P&O without the merest challenge is worrying at best and I could use far stronger. Yes these weather events can be un-predictable, yes sometimes they aren't as bad as can be made out, but this one was pretty darn bad and as a result a good few people have had the latter half of their holiday ruined as a result and it appears it could potentially have been avoided.

 

One of those things, maybe, could it have been much worse..... yes and thank goodness it wasn't.

 

Please enlighten everyone of your superior knowledge and how you know these "facts". Were you onboard were you on the bridge when Captain was given weather reports before docking. I very much doubt it you are more than likely the usual keyboard warrior who was thousands of miles away but think you are an expert. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and can be very different from what  usually happens when it happens. Having been in an emergency service for over 30 years hindsight can be very different from what really happens in serious fires and accidents which I have been involved.

[Dermotsgirl]

People like to find someone to blame.

 

What I find interesting is that people are eager to blame the unfortunate 321 that were offloaded for the unpleasant situation that they find themselves in ! 
 

I also find it interesting that people who are asking somewhat different questions are dismissed as ‘experts’, which is a derogatory term these days.

 

As Molecrochip says, there will be a proper enquiry, and blame, if any will be apportioned. At this stage we can’t simply exonerate P&O, as we simply don’t know the full facts.

 

It maybe that ‘nobody’ is to blame for what happened, but, even so P&O and the captain are accountable for the actions of their ships - they are in a position of great responsibility 

 

 

[majortom10]

It happens all the time the armchair specialists with very little factual evidence think they know better. The same thing happened couple of years ago when P&O didn't dock in Amsterdam due to weather conditions. All the armchair specialists, some who are on this thread, were highly critical of the Captain and were suddenly master mariners who knew better. It even went as far as some suggesting the Captain should be sacked. Laughable but honestly it isn't funny, like I said earlier in thread no or little knowledge can be very dangerous and many, with no sea qualifications knew better than the Captain.

[9265359]

6 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Any opinion on the similar event with QM2 in Italy the other week, or is it only P&O who do it wrong?

 

Did Cunard offload passengers and put them into manky hotels with dodgy food, as that was what P&O certainly did wrong.

 

If Cunard did not do that then I suggest you re-read my post because I made no comment on whether the captain and ship's crew had done anything wrong, but that the serious incident where P&O were lucky that nobody was killed or seriously injured will be investigated and not brushed under the carpet like some here are doing with a 'stuff happens' attitude.

[JeanieC,Aston]

2 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

It happens all the time the armchair specialists with very little factual evidence think they know better. The same thing happened couple of years ago when P&O didn't dock in Amsterdam due to weather conditions. All the armchair specialists, some who are on this thread, were highly critical of the Captain and were suddenly master mariners who knew better. It even went as far as some suggesting the Captain should be sacked. Laughable but honestly it isn't funny, like I said earlier in thread no or little knowledge can be very dangerous and many, with no sea qualifications knew better than the Captain.

Why are you trying to stop people asking questions?