BEAV Posted June 23 #51 Share Posted June 23 (edited) On 6/22/2024 at 7:53 AM, Texas Tillie said: So, what Vince posts is we have a part of the law that makes sense inside a law that makes absolutely no sense under current circumstances. This is the US government, why should we be surprised! 😮🙄😏 Patty Either Canada, or British Columbia, has a similar law. A few years ago we sailed Celebrity from SF to Vancouver. The first two stops were Victoria and Nanaimo. I arranged through Celebrity reservations to disembark in Victoria, spend the night there, then reboard the following day in Nanaimo. It wasn’t until the day after we sailed from SF that the ship’s immigration officer called our stateroom and told us although we could disembark in Victoria, we couldn’t reboard in Nanaimo. The violation? We couldn’t be “transported” from Nanaimo to Vancouver aboard a foreign flagged vessel. No doubt that law was to protect the BC ferry system from foreign ships doing the same thing. The fact the itinerary included several Alaskan ports between Nanaimo and Vancouver was immaterial. So this experience once again points to a general lack of knowledge of these laws on the part of call center and sales personnel, necessitating it be moved up the chain. Edited June 23 by BEAV 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Roland4 Posted June 23 #52 Share Posted June 23 1 hour ago, BEAV said: Either Canada, or British Columbia, has a similar law. A few years ago we sailed Celebrity from SF to Vancouver. The first two stops were Victoria and Nanaimo. I arranged through Celebrity reservations to disembark in Victoria, spend the night there, then reboard the following day in Nanaimo. It wasn’t until the day after we sailed from SF that the ship’s immigration officer called our stateroom and told us although we could disembark in Victoria, we couldn’t reboard in Nanaimo. The violation? We couldn’t be “transported” from Nanaimo to Vancouver aboard a foreign flagged vessel. No doubt that law was to protect the BC ferry system from foreign ships doing the same thing. The fact the itinerary included several Alaskan ports between Nanaimo and Vancouver was immaterial. So this experience once again points to a general lack of knowledge of these laws on the part of call center and sales personnel, necessitating it be moved up the chain. Having never heard of this in 20 years in the industry, I asked Mr. Google and found this; Stated very broadly, the CTA protects Canadian marine interest, including not allowing foreign flagged ships to embark passengers in one Canadian port and disembark them in a different Canadian port. The CTA is the Canadian Transportation Act. Learned something new today! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daleandrews Posted June 23 #53 Share Posted June 23 This is the general rule in most countries. Restricting coastal trades to vessels (or aircraft) that are registered in that country is commonly referred to as "cabotage" restrictions. Historically these rules have been around a long time and are premised on not only providing an economic incentive to citizens of the host country but also (hopefully) assuring an available fleet of vessels and aircraft in case they are needed in times of military crisis. The restrictions are particularly difficult in the context of the United States -- where there is a huge market for transportation between cities that are often far apart -- particularly so in the airport context. On the ocean front, the requirement that U.S. built, registered, and crewed vessels are the only ones that can ply the domestic intercostal trades is particularly difficult given the economic reality that U.S. vessels are markedly more expensive to build and operate than are foreign vessels. Nonetheless, the laws persist. Ahh well, there we have it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Roland4 Posted June 23 #54 Share Posted June 23 1 hour ago, daleandrews said: This is the general rule in most countries. Restricting coastal trades to vessels (or aircraft) that are registered in that country is commonly referred to as "cabotage" restrictions. Historically these rules have been around a long time and are premised on not only providing an economic incentive to citizens of the host country but also (hopefully) assuring an available fleet of vessels and aircraft in case they are needed in times of military crisis. The restrictions are particularly difficult in the context of the United States -- where there is a huge market for transportation between cities that are often far apart -- particularly so in the airport context. On the ocean front, the requirement that U.S. built, registered, and crewed vessels are the only ones that can ply the domestic intercostal trades is particularly difficult given the economic reality that U.S. vessels are markedly more expensive to build and operate than are foreign vessels. Nonetheless, the laws persist. Ahh well, there we have it! Several years ago, in a similar discussion on this board, a very knowledgeable poster (whom I cannot remember) defended the PVSA by asking what would happen if it was abolished and "foreign interests" bought the Staten Island Ferry and reflagged it?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daleandrews Posted June 23 #55 Share Posted June 23 2 hours ago, Roland4 said: Several years ago, in a similar discussion on this board, a very knowledgeable poster (whom I cannot remember) defended the PVSA by asking what would happen if it was abolished and "foreign interests" bought the Staten Island Ferry and reflagged it?? Yeah, I mean if we ended up going to war what would we do if we could not control the Staten Island Ferry??? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Roland4 Posted July 20 #56 Share Posted July 20 At the end of the day, Crystal gave us the option to disembark in New York, making it a roundtrip, or Nassau. We chose Nassau on Nov 8, and will fly to FLL the same day. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare rafinmd Posted July 20 #57 Share Posted July 20 9 hours ago, Roland4 said: At the end of the day, Crystal gave us the option to disembark in New York, making it a roundtrip, or Nassau. We chose Nassau on Nov 8, and will fly to FLL the same day. Are you aware it appears there is an 11:55am nonstop to Toronto that day? Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Roland4 Posted July 20 #58 Share Posted July 20 2 hours ago, rafinmd said: Are you aware it appears there is an 11:55am nonstop to Toronto that day? Roy We had already made arrangements to spend three nights in FLL post-cruise and had the flights already booked. We just added an extra day to everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenzSailing Posted July 20 #59 Share Posted July 20 These periodic and evergreen PVSA dust-ups are perhaps the only subject about which there is agreement on CC. Anybody wanna talk dress codes/tipping/casinos next? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Keith1010 Posted July 20 #60 Share Posted July 20 6 minutes ago, KenzSailing said: These periodic and evergreen PVSA dust-ups are perhaps the only subject about which there is agreement on CC. Anybody wanna talk dress codes/tipping/casinos next? Let's find something with no controversy such as inclusive laundry. As they say welcome to CC. 😂 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Roland4 Posted July 20 #61 Share Posted July 20 2 hours ago, Keith1010 said: Let's find something with no controversy such as inclusive laundry. As they say welcome to CC. 😂 Or maybe debate the relative merits of Prego vs Osterria??? 😁😁 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimundsR Posted July 20 #62 Share Posted July 20 (edited) Just curious . . . if you book this b2b as originally planned, boarded the ship, what would happen and at what point would it? With ticket in hand would you even be allowed to board? Are fines involved? Edited July 20 by dimundsR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topo Gigio and Me Posted July 20 #63 Share Posted July 20 I've seen arguments about whether or not these archaic laws apply, which I guess, is the topic here, but has anyone ever taken the side that these laws are hunky dory and we should keep them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daleandrews Posted July 20 #64 Share Posted July 20 10 minutes ago, Topo Gigio and Me said: has anyone ever taken the side that these laws are hunky dory and we should keep them? Every single maritime-related labor union. The laws are supposed to promote build-American and crew-American. Costs are so high for U.S. built and crewed ships that there still aren't many of them. Actually, many countries have similar cabotage laws -- the difference is that the U.S. has such a large number of coastal ports that the public is much more aware of the restrictions here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAV Posted July 20 #65 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 2 hours ago, dimundsR said: Just curious . . . if you book this b2b as originally planned, boarded the ship, what would happen and at what point would it? With ticket in hand would you even be allowed to board? Are fines involved? When we encountered this situation back in 2002, we were notified 10 days prior to sailing our itinerary (SFO-YVR-SEA) was in violation. Holland America offered to pay the fine in our behalf, but CBP wasn’t having it. So our reservation was cancelled and refunded. Just one week ago there were media reports of a family who missed the ship in Ketchikan (a fault of the tour operator). They were on a 7-night round trip cruise from Seattle. CBP levied the fine for the PVSA violation. The family was reimbursed by Norwegian for the fine, plus expenses to get back to Seattle. Edited July 20 by BEAV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimundsR Posted July 20 #66 Share Posted July 20 So one doesn’t even make it onto the ship. Thank you for answering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Roland4 Posted July 21 #67 Share Posted July 21 17 hours ago, BEAV said: When we encountered this situation back in 2002, we were notified 10 days prior to sailing our itinerary (SFO-YVR-SEA) was in violation. Holland America offered to pay the fine in our behalf, but CBP wasn’t having it. So our reservation was cancelled and refunded. Just one week ago there were media reports of a family who missed the ship in Ketchikan (a fault of the tour operator). They were on a 7-night round trip cruise from Seattle. CBP levied the fine for the PVSA violation. The family was reimbursed by Norwegian for the fine, plus expenses to get back to Seattle. What strikes me as odd, is that Crystal broke the B2B booking into two separate bookings, the original booking NYC/QC, and a second under a new booking number QC/FLL with a note on our Nassau disembarkation. They still gave us the B2B discount, so we are not out anything, I just can't figure out the reason/logic behind this. And this was done without any notice to me as the booking TA, or as the guest. Fortunately, we were able to re-book the few tours we had on the second leg. And of course, in spite of requests for an explanation, no one from Crystal has bothered to respond. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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