Carnival Corporation Orders Three Additional Ships for Carnival Cruise Line, Introducing a New Class of Ships

[BlerkOne]

12 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

The newly announced Carnival ships are planned to be as big as the Icon class (MORE passengers and rooms).

 

Not by all measures.

 

 

12 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

The Discovery class is planned to be smaller than Icon.

Obviously.

[BlerkOne]

16 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Royal charges more because the market will bear it, and Carnival (and every other cruise line, hotel chain, resort, airline, etc., etc.) would charge more if the market would bear it.

 

Royal charges more because they have to and is lucky the market will bear it. When the market collapses, they will be in trouble.

 

Carnival IS charging a lot, except to gamblers. More than one would expect.

 

18 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Royal charges more because they can, and Carnival doesn't charge more because they can't.

We've already been around this bend in the river.

[DanJ]

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

That is an answer.

 

 

If you have some inside information on the size of Discovery class or mission, perhaps you'll share?

Obviously the company hasn't put anything out yet, or as far as I can tell, even confirm such a class is in the planning. I did see a post I found on a google search, from I think royalcaribbeanblog where a captain said that they will have new ships coming out at some undetermined time in the 80-90k GRT range. I see the logic mentioned above about the Vision class, but I have my doubts until such time as they announce them and that they are in that size range.

[BlerkOne]

18 minutes ago, DanJ said:

Obviously the company hasn't put anything out yet, or as far as I can tell, even confirm such a class is in the planning. I did see a post I found on a google search, from I think royalcaribbeanblog where a captain said that they will have new ships coming out at some undetermined time in the 80-90k GRT range. I see the logic mentioned above about the Vision class, but I have my doubts until such time as they announce them and that they are in that size range.

I have seen rumors and all of them can't be true.

Edited July 30 by BlerkOne

[jimbo5544]

6 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I have seen rumors and all of them can't be true.

I would bet the ranch that RCCL will NEVER build a 90K ship 

[Illbcruzn4life]

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Royal charges more because they have to and is lucky the market will bear it. When the market collapses, they will be in trouble.

 

Carnival IS charging a lot, except to gamblers. More than one would expect.

 

We've already been around this bend in the river.

if the market collapses, they will all be in trouble

[Retired-N-Happy]

21 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Paradise made money, just not enough. And smoke free included the crew, so that was an issue.

 

Discovery class might still be larger than anything Carnival will build. When does that first Discovery ship launch? Not this decade.

 

Royal's pipeline is building up debt. Demand for cruising will peak at some point.

Like I previously said, I personally don't care about what Royal has in their pipeline or how much debt they are building up or how much they are charging for their new builds.

But it's a fact that it's taken Carnival 20 years to finally build their version of the Oasis.  And why does RCI think the Discovery Class can make money for them while Carnival doesn't think that smaller new builds are profitable.

[BlerkOne]

6 minutes ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

Like I previously said, I personally don't care about what Royal has in their pipeline or how much debt they are building up or how much they are charging for their new builds.

But it's a fact that it's taken Carnival 20 years to finally build their version of the Oasis.  And why does RCI think the Discovery Class can make money for them while Carnival doesn't think that smaller new builds are profitable.

Carnival is building ships that make sense for Carnival when they make sense.

 

You have it backwards. Royal has been one upping itself with bigger and bigger ships while Carnival was building more sensible and affordable ships. Carnival already has an assortment of smaller ships. Royal is trying to play catch up.

[tidecat]

8 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

If you have some inside information on the size of Discovery class or mission, perhaps you'll share?

I am just going by public statements Michael Bayley has made referring to the bridge heights in Tampa and Baltimore, and the eminent aging out of their two oldest classes of ships.

 

I had done a reply earlier with links to a couple of articles with those statements, but it's in some sort of unapproved State in this board. They were from fairly high up on the results on Google, though.

[Retired-N-Happy]

47 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

You have it backwards.... Carnival already has an assortment of smaller ships. Royal is trying to play catch up.

You also have it backwards.  Royal already has an assortment of 200,000 K ton ships with 10 currently and more in their pipeline before Carnival comes out with their first one five years from now.  Carnival is trying to play catch up and obviously never will.  

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

Like I previously said, I personally don't care about what Royal has in their pipeline or how much debt they are building up or how much they are charging for their new builds.

But it's a fact that it's taken Carnival 20 years to finally build their version of the Oasis.  And why does RCI think the Discovery Class can make money for them while Carnival doesn't think that smaller new builds are profitable.

1.) Carnival chose not to play in the mega liner, 20 years ago was 20 years ago, totally different time, totally different reasons 2.) Discovery is a concept, nothing more  3.) We have no idea what Discovery class will ever happen. 4.) IF and WHEN they build it, we have no idea the size, how many people, or the profitability, pretty much no idea of anything.  5.) Clearly we know factually (unlike everything else mentioned) that larger ships are more profitable. 6.) Carnival has gotten bashed for years for not going big, and now they do they get bashed, gotta love Cruisecritic.  How any of that has anything to do with what Carnival does escapes me.

Edited July 31 by jimbo5544

[jimbo5544]

6 minutes ago, tidecat said:

I am just going by public statements Michael Bayley has made referring to the bridge heights in Tampa and Baltimore, and the eminent aging out of their two oldest classes of ships.

 

I had done a reply earlier with links to a couple of articles with those statements, but it's in some sort of unapproved State in this board. They were from fairly high up on the results on Google, though.

Does shorter mean smaller?

[Retired-N-Happy]

2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

1.) Carnival chose not to play in the mega liner, 20 years ago was 20 years ago, totally different time, totally different reasons 2.) Discovery is a concept, nothing more  3.) We have no idea what Discovery class will ever happen. 4.) IF and WHEN they build it, we have no idea the size, how many people, or the profitability, pretty much no idea of anything.  5.) Clearly we know factually (unlike everything else mentioned) that larger ships are more profitable. 6.) Carnival has gotten bashed for years for not going bug, and now they do they get bashed, gotta love Cruisecritic.  How any of that has anything to do with what Carnival does escapes me.

Royal has made their money with the mega ships or Behemoths of the Seas or whatever you wish to call them.  They have 10 currently and more in their pipeline.  The bells and whistles appeal to the new cruiser as well as families that drive the almighty dollar.  I'm amazed and blown away with the prices that Royal is charging and getting for the multiple ships in the Icon Class.  I certainly would never pay those prices.

 

Carnival on the other hand made their profits on smaller and mid size ships and as the entry level cruise line that catered to first time cruisers.  They followed that up with giving cruises as well as drinks away to gamblers since they can add alot of money to the bottom line so Carnival can chip away at their debt from the shutdown.

 

It seems like the shutdown is in the rearview mirror of both companies and each are looking at the future with different perspectives as to how they can become more profitable.

[BlerkOne]

25 minutes ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

You also have it backwards.  Royal already has an assortment of 200,000 K ton ships with 10 currently and more in their pipeline before Carnival comes out with their first one five years from now.  Carnival is trying to play catch up and obviously never will.  

You missed the part where it didn't make sense for Carnival until now. Royal is overbuilding and they know it.

[tidecat]

5 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Does shorter mean smaller?

Probably.

 

It sounds like Royal wants to build a beamier (wider) ship. The maximum beam on Oasis class is basically double that of the Vision-class, and Oasis-class has seven more decks. Of course if you make the ship too wide you may lose access to certain ports and canals even if draft and air draft are otherwise fine.

 

The length of the ship can also be a limiting factor in terms of what ports can be accessed. Even aside from that making a ship too long can make for a ship that is not very stable.

 

The other design choice that would have to be made is do you put lots of interior staterooms, or do you open up the middle? Even if the ship is as wide as Oasis, opening up the middle will reduce the potential passenger capacity and gross tonnage of the ship.

 

[jimbo5544]

Just now, tidecat said:

Probably.

 

It sounds like Royal wants to build a beamier (wider) ship. The maximum beam on Oasis class is basically double that of the Vision-class, and Oasis-class has seven more decks. Of course if you make the ship too wide you may lose access to certain ports and canals even if draft and air draft are otherwise fine.

 

The length of the ship can also be a limiting factor in terms of what ports can be accessed. Even aside from that making a ship too long can make for a ship that is not very stable.

 

The other design choice that would have to be made is do you put lots of interior staterooms, or do you open up the middle? Even if the ship is as wide as Oasis, opening up the middle will reduce the potential passenger capacity and gross tonnage of the ship.

 

All based on a discussion.  We do not know.  It certainly is not going to be 90K

 

[tidecat]

15 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

All based on a discussion.  We do not know.  It certainly is not going to be 90K

 

If you don't know, how can you be certain it isn't?

[Retired-N-Happy]

4 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

You missed the part where it didn't make sense for Carnival until now. Royal is overbuilding and they know it.

Why praytel did it take 20 years for Carnival to realize that a mega ship would be profitable to them?  They should have known by the time that the third Oasis ship came out for Royal that there was money to be made.  Did they have to dip their little toe in the water with the three and soon to be five Excel Class ships @ 180 K tons before they decided to pull the trigger on three 230 K ton ships?

Once again, I don't care about Royals new large builds.  It's why did it take Carnival 20 years to decide to hop in the deep end?  

[jimbo5544]

6 hours ago, tidecat said:

If you don't know, how can you be certain it isn't?

I do not know.  That said, it cuts against every single move they have done for 30 years.  Makes more sense than anything else I have read or seen.

[Tom-n-Cheryl]

It is what it is... or will be.

 

And, in "x" years, it won't matter 😉 

 

Tom

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

Why praytel did it take 20 years for Carnival to realize that a mega ship would be profitable to them?  They should have known by the time that the third Oasis ship came out for Royal that there was money to be made.  Did they have to dip their little toe in the water with the three and soon to be five Excel Class ships @ 180 K tons before they decided to pull the trigger on three 230 K ton ships?

Once again, I don't care about Royals new large builds.  It's why did it take Carnival 20 years to decide to hop in the deep end?  

Pretty easy answer, at least from my viewpoint.  20 years ago, ships were not the destination.  Carnival decided not to follow the lead (they never really ever followed RCCL by nature), RCCL was paying way more for their mega ships and the return was obviously not there for Carnival.  The Excel class is/was a perfect for the next generation of Carnival ships (personally, from my take they could have made 8 more Vista class an I would have been overjoyed….but they did not ask me 😏).  Covid, altered life for everyone and for the cruise industry as well, and especially Carnival Corp.  With their significant pause for the debt structure payoff, revenue generation needs changed, the ships as the destination increased (partly due to covid residual affects), and the investment for private islands/resorts exploded.  Just my view, but did not require a ton of thought and fits perfectly with all of their press and marketing over the time.

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

It is what it is... or will be.

 

And, in "x" years, it won't matter 😉 

 

Tom

Just in historical retrospect, but true enough.

[Retired-N-Happy]

13 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Pretty easy answer, at least from my viewpoint.  20 years ago, ships were not the destination.  Carnival decided not to follow the lead (they never really ever followed RCCL by nature), RCCL was paying way more for their mega ships and the return was obviously not there for Carnival.  The Excel class is/was a perfect for the next generation of Carnival ships (personally, from my take they could have made 8 more Vista class an I would have been overjoyed….but they did not ask me 😏).  Covid, altered life for everyone and for the cruise industry as well, and especially Carnival Corp.  With their significant pause for the debt structure payoff, revenue generation needs changed, the ships as the destination increased (partly due to covid residual affects), and the investment for private islands/resorts exploded.  Just my view, but did not require a ton of thought and fits perfectly with all of their press and marketing over the time.

By the time that the third Oasis Class ship came out, the ship was the destination for Royal, they have printed money ever since and with the astronomical prices they are getting for the Icon ships, they obviously are doing something right.  Carnival stupidly decided that they didn't want to take that path and that is part of the reason why their stocks are priced where they currently are.  I'm not saying that Carnival had to duplicate what Royal did, but they certainly would be in a better place financially if they had decided to invest in a Oasis sized ship after the third one was profitable, not waiting 20 years.

[jimbo5544]

15 minutes ago, Retired-N-Happy said:

By the time that the third Oasis Class ship came out, the ship was the destination for Royal, they have printed money ever since and with the astronomical prices they are getting for the Icon ships, they obviously are doing something right.  Carnival stupidly decided that they didn't want to take that path and that is part of the reason why their stocks are priced where they currently are.  I'm not saying that Carnival had to duplicate what Royal did, but they certainly would be in a better place financially if they had decided to invest in a Oasis sized ship after the third one was profitable, not waiting 20 years.

I answered my thoughts on the 20 years, we can disagree with that (for someone who does nit care about RCCL new builds, you seem pretty focused on them).  The facts are Carnival chose (an active decision on their part) not to play in the mega liner race till now.  Micky seems fine with their path (he was def behind them not doing it) and his worth of almost 8 bill and the Chairman of the Board for the largest cruise company in the world must carry a little more weight than your view….maybe give him a call and tell him how stupid he is.

 

I am not sure they would be in a better position financially, in fact if they were in hock for 3 or 4 ships when covid hit, they probably would not be around (at least in their current form) today.  Again, just my view. 

Edited July 31 by jimbo5544

[Retired-N-Happy]

9 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I answered my thoughts on the 20 years, we can disagree with that (for someone who does nit care about RCCL new builds, you seem pretty focused on them).  The facts are Carnival chose (an active decision on their part) not to play in the mega liner race till now.  Micky seems fine with their path (he was def behind them not doing it) and his worth of almost 8 bill and the Chairman of the Board for the largest cruise company in the world must carry a little more weight than your view….maybe give him a call and tell him how stupid he is.

 

I am not sure they would be in a better position financially, in fact if they were in hock for 3 or 4 ships when covid hit, they probably would not be around (at least in their current form) today.  Again, just my view. 

 

They have been printing money non stop with their mega ships except for the shutdown and Carnival's stock would certainly be in a substantially better position if Carnival had built their first Oasis sized ship in about 2017 instead of waiting till 2029.

I'm not saying anything else because the splinters on the bench stink.