EES and P&O cruisers

[majortom10]

10 hours ago, david63 said:

Because they can. Their country, their rules.

What a rather useless silly comment to make.

[nosapphire]

I have a suspicion that it is neither a state or USA law but up to the local border force team.

The only definite is that everybody on the ship has to go through the process, whether or not they intend to go ashore.

Last cruise to USA in 2020 (with Saga) round trip Southampton, the first USA port was San Juan.

We were told that everybody had to disembark to go through border control, whether or not they intended to go ashore, and nobody could return until the whole ship was cleared.

Saga sent people down in batches - for the passengers it was everybody on tours first, people wanting to walk around independently next, those wanting to come back on board last (to save waiting), with staff and crew filtered in.

The queues were moving very fast (we were the only ship in) and as we were getting off an

announcement was made that those not intending to go ashore in San Juan could wait in the lounge and Border Control would process them on the ship.

They were a very smiley, jolly Border Control team, too.

[zap99]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:30 AM, kalos said:

 

Thanks for the very detailed explanation,yes I was getting confused with various things

the press and others had written but I think it's clearer now -Thanks .

The way I see it now is ,the ETIAS is a visa waiver system ,that does exactly what it

says on the tin .

The EES (entry exit system )  is just a tracker that is put onto my bio metric passport

that holds info ,finger prints etc, once taken for the first time at an air/port . After 

that for the next few years I can go anywhere within Europe and just show my 

passport at border control , no need for stamps/visa's just like when we were in the EU.

The possible problem is getting it all set up onto folks passports 10 Nov onwards ? 

 

Thanks for your help in this matter .

We fly to the Canaries on 2nd November and fly back on 13th. Could be interesting.🤔

[kalos]

56 minutes ago, zap99 said:

We fly to the Canaries on 2nd November and fly back on 13th. Could be interesting.🤔

Hopefully not a problem as you fly out before all of this kicks off ? 🤔

[zap99]

17 minutes ago, kalos said:

Hopefully not a problem as you fly out before all of this kicks off ? 🤔

Maybe they will delay our return home.🤣

[kalos]

41 minutes ago, zap99 said:

Maybe they will delay our return home.🤣

 

Remember the early 1970's ? They were the best I would get off in Alicante and try 

to show the passport guy my passport .."OK ,GO,GO "  He made it clear he did not 

want anything to do with any of us .You could have had a rocket launcher strapped

to your back ,he just wanted you gone.

A few months back in Madeira and how things have changed . I got a guy looking 

at my new UK passport, pretending to read the blank pages . Then he looks up 

at me and says " Why you come here ?"  To show you my passport I replied. 

" No,no ,why you come to Madeira ? "   .. "Cos I like the place for holiday "

Next my wife's old red EU passport , quick glance ,stamped both and said "Go"

 

I'm sure they will think of something to delay you Zapp, even if it's just gazing 

at your passport photo, they do say if we looked like those photos , then one 

has to think "are they really fit to travel ".🙃

Have a goodtime when you go .

[Snow Hill]

Shortly will be negotiating French Passport at Eurotunnel, the first trip through since 2018, previously a casual glance at passport an au revoir on handing them back and wave us on our way. I guess this time it will be different. I have usually found the French Passport Control officers quite amiable both at Folkestone on way out an Coquelles on the way back, the Border Force at Coquelles on the return not so. Last time there was a very slow queue, no wonder given the stupid questions being asked

 

”Where have you been” France I said, not realising he wanted more detail

””Where in France?” “Perigord, not far from Bergerac” I answered 

“Where is Perigord?” “Next door to the Dordogne” I answered

 

He then paged through both our passports very slowly and begrudgingly hand them back. On getting home I checked Eurotunnel social media feed where there were hundreds complaining about the attitude of the Border Force that, Eurotunnel’s advice was complain to the Home Office as they are unable to do anything. 

[cruising.mark.uk]

7 hours ago, majortom10 said:

What a rather useless silly comment to make.

Actually, it's no more useless or silly than moaning about how another country exercises it's sovereign powers over its border and national security.  

Nothing anyone on here says is going to change how those matters are handled in the US.  Although, if you want to try to get yourself in a position where you might be able to direct changes, I think there may still be time to throw your hat into the ring for the US presidential election in November.  Best of luck with that.

[9265359]

4 hours ago, Snow Hill said:

He then paged through both our passports very slowly

 

Yes, to check for stamps to ensure neither of you had not overstayed - as is their job.

[zap99]

10 hours ago, kalos said:

 

Remember the early 1970's ? They were the best I would get off in Alicante and try 

to show the passport guy my passport .."OK ,GO,GO "  He made it clear he did not 

want anything to do with any of us .You could have had a rocket launcher strapped

to your back ,he just wanted you gone.

A few months back in Madeira and how things have changed . I got a guy looking 

at my new UK passport, pretending to read the blank pages . Then he looks up 

at me and says " Why you come here ?"  To show you my passport I replied. 

" No,no ,why you come to Madeira ? "   .. "Cos I like the place for holiday "

Next my wife's old red EU passport , quick glance ,stamped both and said "Go"

 

I'm sure they will think of something to delay you Zapp, even if it's just gazing 

at your passport photo, they do say if we looked like those photos , then one 

has to think "are they really fit to travel ".🙃

Have a goodtime when you go .

We are on a RC cruise to the Canaries in a few weeks. I'll tell them in Funchal, Kalos said that statue of Ronaldo looks like Alfred E Newman from Mad magazine. That should speed up your entry on your next visit to Madeira. 🤣

[Snow Hill]

8 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Yes, to check for stamps to ensure neither of you had not overstayed - as is their job.

No stamps in passport in 2018 to view as we hadn’t left EU then. 

[FangedRose]

5 hours ago, Snow Hill said:

No stamps in passport in 2018 to view as we hadn’t left EU then. 

And the he knew that without checking how?

[terrierjohn]

13 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

And the he knew that without checking how?

Why would he have needed to check when we were still in the EU, albeit on our way out.

[Jonb_chi]

Has anyone found out what happens if your trip crosses over the EES activation?

We fly USA to Greece before EES, cruise RT, depart Greece after EES (one of us actually leaves day of EES). 

Will the exit procedure be an EES catch up process to digitize my entry stamp? Or just a simple non-EES exit stamp?

I'm guessing regardless, we should arrive VERY early?

[9265359]

On 8/27/2024 at 10:03 PM, Lois2409 said:

Thank you for your advice and guidance. In relation to the EES, please can you advise if I fly into Barcelona to embark a cruise ship, my passport will be electronically read as entering the EU and Day 1 will begin of my 90 days out of the rolling 180. If I debark in a UK port or non-EU country not part of the Schengen zone, how do the EU know I have left the EU?  I understand if I fly back from an EU country, my exit from the EU will be recorded at the airport when I leave but if I debark in Southampton or another UK port or fly back from Turkey for example that is not part of the EU, how do they know I have exited the EU? Thank you

 

Once EES is in operation then yes your entry (and the start of the count of 90/180) will be recorded when you fly into Barcelona.

 

When you leave on your cruise from Barcelona the EU border guard manual says - 

 

where a cruise ship departs from a port situated in a Schengen State to a port situated outside the area without internal border control, crew and passengers must be subject to exit checks on the basis of the nominal lists of crew and passengers. If an assessment of the risks related to security and illegal immigration so requires, passengers going on board must be subject to exit checks in accordance with general rules

 

So the situation is pretty much as now when your passport wouldn't be stamped when you left on the cruise ship to a non-Schengen country - the cruise line will send a list of passengers and their passport details to the authorities and the authorities will perform their checks on those details and in the future should enter those details onto EES.

 

But if you are concerned that your exit has not been recorded correctly, EES will have a web page where individuals can access their travel information so you can see whether you have been shown as leaving correctly, and undoubtably (as now when passports are not stamped in some circumstances) there is a process that allows you to provide evidence to show that you had left on a specific date (cruise tickets, etc.) and had not broken the 90/180 rule, and then when EES is in place the database could be updated with that information.

[9265359]

21 hours ago, Jonb_chi said:

Has anyone found out what happens if your trip crosses over the EES activation?

We fly USA to Greece before EES, cruise RT, depart Greece after EES (one of us actually leaves day of EES). 

Will the exit procedure be an EES catch up process to digitize my entry stamp? Or just a simple non-EES exit stamp?

 

 

The guidance for airports on the introduction of EES says - 

 

During a 180-day transition period, the competent border authorities will check the stamps in the travel documents, in addition to the entry-exit data recorded in the EES. In case of a discrepancy, the stamp will prevail (Art. 22 of the Regulation).

 

 

[powderhorn]

On 8/26/2024 at 2:06 PM, 9265359 said:

 

To start with you are confusing EES and ETIAS, which are two different systems.

 

Firstly EES (Entry Exit System), this has an announced start date of the 10th November 2024 and there is no charge for it.

 

With EES, if you are a non-EU citizen then on your first entry to the Schengen Area your fingerprints and a photo will be taken by the border guards at the Schengen Area airport or at Dover (etc.) or St Pancras.

 

The purpose of EES is to monitor the time spent in the Schengen Area and to ensure that the 90/180 day rule is correctly enforced, plus removing the need to 'wet stamp' passports.

 

Unlike now, the border guard won't need to try to look at all the stamps in the passport to try to calculate how long someone has spent in the Schengen Area, the system will simply tell them when they put the passport in the scanner.

 

Individuals will have access to a website so they can see how long they have spent in the Schengen Area and how long they have left in the current rolling 180 day period so they don't inadvertently break the rules.

 

EES is also designed to work with family members of EU citizens and ensure that they time they spend in the Schengen Area with their EU family member does not count towards the 90 day limit (it does if they are there on their own).

 

Turning to the impact of EES for cruise passengers (not ETIAS which is covered below)

 

For round trip cruises starting and ending at non-Schengen ports, e.g. a cruise starting and ending at Southampton, then EES will not be required at port stops in Schengen countries - exactly the same as you don't have to go through passport control now - cruises are a low risk for the Schengen Area because you are scanned on and off the ship and the ship has to report if you have not got back onboard.

 

For cruises starting at a non-Schengen port and ending at a Schengen port, e.g. a repositioning cruise from Southampton to Barcelona, then EES will be required at Barcelona, because you have simply used a cruise ship as a method of transport from A to B.

 

For cruises starting at a Schengen port then EES will be required but that will be at the airport you fly into (or whatever other means you take to get to that Schengen country.

 

Thus for any P&O passengers doing Southampton to Southampton cruises then they will not be troubled by EES.

 

Now for ETIAS (European Travel Information and Authorisation System) which does not have an announced start date.

 

ETIAS is a 'travel authorisation' and although it isn't a visa or a visa waiver it has pretty much the same effect - you don't have one then you are not getting in!

 

The purpose of ETIAS is so the Schengen Area countries have some control on the type of people entering with a passport as the ETIAS application contains details on your background, employment, criminal convictions etc. 

 

Once in operation then non-EU citizens will need to apply before they travel to the Schengen Area and it has a cost of 7 euros unless you are under 18, over 70, or a family member of an EU citizen.

 

There is no announced start date for ETIAS but the indications are - 

 

- You will be able to apply from May 2025 for an ETIAS but importantly there will be no requirement to have one for another six months, likely to be up to November 2025.

 

- From November 2025 you will be required to have an ETIAS but you will be allowed into the Schengen Area once and once only provided everything else is OK, and this state will last for six months up to May 2026.

 

- From May 2026 you will be required to have an ETIAS and there will be no allowance if you don't.

 

But as before, all those dates are not certain yet and may yet move.

 

Turning to the impact of ETIAS for cruise passengers (not EES which is covered above)

 

For round trip cruises starting and ending at non-Schengen ports, e.g. a cruise starting and ending at Southampton, then an ETIAS will be required if the ship has port stops in Schengen countries.

 

For cruises starting at a non-Schengen port and ending at a Schengen port, e.g. a repositioning cruise from Southampton to Barcelona, then an ETIAS will be required.

 

For cruises starting at a Schengen port then an ETIAS will be required but that will be at the airport you fly into (or whatever other means you take to get to that Schengen country.

 

Thus for any P&O passengers doing Southampton to Southampton cruises then they will need an ETIAS if there are any Schengen Area port stops.

 

In summary, EES will make no difference to almost anyone using P&O, because either it will not apply (Southampton to Southampton) or it will be dealt with at the airport on a fly cruise into Malta or Tenerife.

 

However ETIAS will make a difference and look out for 'sad faced posts' from people denied boarding at Southampton or denied boarding an aircraft for a fly-cruise, when the firm requirement kicks in.

 

And lastly, for those who are fortunate enough to be EU citizens (or dual UK and EU) then neither EES or ETIAS will trouble you if you travel on your EU passport - and importantly, it doesn't matter if you are an Irish citizen as Ireland is a non-Schengen country due to the 'common travel area' with the UK, the same is true and EES and ETIAS is irrelevant.

 

Plus your non-EU spouse (and children under age 21), although they will need to do EES and do ETIAS (unless they have residency in a Schengen Area country) can go with you through the EU passport controls and as mentioned above are not limited to the 90 days if you are somewhere in the Schengen Area (it doesn't need to be the same country) at the same time.

 

Confused - I am not surprised!

 

Sooo….we are on the Vista sailing from Rome to Athens Oct 30 to Nov 11….we enter Greece (our last country) in Corfu on Nov 8th….we will be in Mykonos on Nov 10th….where can I expect to bump into this new EES system?….at Athens airport on the 11th when I check in for my nonstop flight back to Canada? Thanks.

[9265359]

7 minutes ago, powderhorn said:

at Athens airport on the 11th when I check in for my nonstop flight back to Canada?

 

I doubt even then.

 

You will arrive in Schengen when you fly into Rome when EES isn't active so your entry into Schengen will be recorded by a passport stamp, and then you will be leaving in the transitional 180 day period following its start.

 

That will mean that when there is no EES record of your entry into Schengen when they scan your passport when you leave then there will be no issue as the border guard can see the entry passport stamp is there.

 

Will your exit be recorded on EES or will you just get an exit passport stamp - at the moment the border guard manual hasn't been updated with the details, but a reasonable presumption would be to say you would not be recorded on EES as an individual's record on EES requires the photo and fingerprint data which would not have been taken as EES would not have been in operation when you arrived.

 

And anyway there will be millions of people in exactly this situation, so realistically it isn't going to cause an issue otherwise the airports would cease to be able operate.

[Jonb_chi]

4 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

I doubt even then.

 

You will arrive in Schengen when you fly into Rome when EES isn't active so your entry into Schengen will be recorded by a passport stamp, and then you will be leaving in the transitional 180 day period following its start.

 

That will mean that when there is no EES record of your entry into Schengen when they scan your passport when you leave then there will be no issue as the border guard can see the entry passport stamp is there.

 

Will your exit be recorded on EES or will you just get an exit passport stamp - at the moment the border guard manual hasn't been updated with the details, but a reasonable presumption would be to say you would not be recorded on EES as an individual's record on EES requires the photo and fingerprint data which would not have been taken as EES would not have been in operation when you arrived.

 

And anyway there will be millions of people in exactly this situation, so realistically it isn't going to cause an issue otherwise the airports would cease to be able operate.

I was curious if they'd have biometrics at the exit during the transition. As you stated, we'll just have to wait and see.

Regardless, looks like I'm getting to Athens very early on Nov 10, just in case.

[Kruzengma]

On 8/25/2024 at 8:26 AM, yorkshirephil said:

There is no cost to passengers for EES the fee is for the ETIAS which is scheduled to start 2025 after several delays. The EES is supposed to track entry and exit and starts on November 10th 2024 after being put back several times, I have been monitoring the EES as it was supposed to apply to us in October but the French had it delayed until the Olympics were completed. In theory it should work fine but it probably depends how difficult the EU want to make it for us.

So,  for the application, where would we go to get finger printed and photographed? It would be great if they could use the Global Entry info. for this. I'm not cruising P & O but NCL in Feb out of Southampton to Miami, with ports in France Spain and Portugal. Interesting to see how this work?

[yorkshirephil]

4 hours ago, Kruzengma said:

So,  for the application, where would we go to get finger printed and photographed? It would be great if they could use the Global Entry info. for this. I'm not cruising P & O but NCL in Feb out of Southampton to Miami, with ports in France Spain and Portugal. Interesting to see how this work?

Albeit some European countries accept Global entry at the moment I would be surprised if the EES system does, but who knows. 

[9265359]

7 hours ago, Kruzengma said:

So,  for the application, where would we go to get finger printed and photographed? .... I'm not cruising P & O but NCL in Feb out of Southampton to Miami, with ports in France Spain and Portugal. Interesting to see how this work?

 

Even if you are travelling after November 2024 you won't get fingerprinted and photographed anywhere.

 

Fingerprinting and photographs are for EES and EES won't apply to cruises that start and end outside the Schengen Area, which Southampton and Miami obviously are, even though there are stops at ports in the Schengen Area.

 

EES is to allow the authorities to know if you have overstayed and cruise ships are low risk because they have to let the authorities know if anyone has not got back on board.

 

However if you are travelling after May 2025 then you will likely run into ETIAS, although the start date still not confirmed, which does apply to cruises that start and end outside the Schengen Area if they have port stops in the Schengen Area.

 

ETIAS is to allow the authorities to control who is arriving and it is a travel authorisation (not a visa or a visa waiver) where you have to declare your background, criminal convictions, etc. which will allow the authorities to deny you entry (and likely boarding on the cruise ship) if they don't want you.

 

Two different systems doing different things and apply to cruises in different ways - people are going to get very confused!

 

 

[9265359]

10 hours ago, Jonb_chi said:

I was curious if they'd have biometrics at the exit during the transition.

 

I doubt it, because they would have to set up the systems to capture those 'one way' people (those who entered pre-EES and exited with EES) for only six months or so.

 

Far easier just to use passport stamps, like now, to control those 'one way' people for that transitional period.

 

10 hours ago, Jonb_chi said:

As you stated, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

I won't, because I have dual citizenship so will be travelling on my EU passport!

[Kruzengma]

3 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Even if you are travelling after November 2024 you won't get fingerprinted and photographed anywhere.

 

Fingerprinting and photographs are for EES and EES won't apply to cruises that start and end outside the Schengen Area, which Southampton and Miami obviously are, even though there are stops at ports in the Schengen Area.

 

EES is to allow the authorities to know if you have overstayed and cruise ships are low risk because they have to let the authorities know if anyone has not got back on board.

 

However if you are travelling after May 2025 then you will likely run into ETIAS, although the start date still not confirmed, which does apply to cruises that start and end outside the Schengen Area if they have port stops in the Schengen Area.

 

ETIAS is to allow the authorities to control who is arriving and it is a travel authorisation (not a visa or a visa waiver) where you have to declare your background, criminal convictions, etc. which will allow the authorities to deny you entry (and likely boarding on the cruise ship) if they don't want you.

 

Two different systems doing different things and apply to cruises in different ways - people are going to get very confused!

 

 

Thank you so much. I was like, so when we get off in Le Harve, are they going to fingerprint everyone e? There's not even a terminal there🤣🤣🤣.

[westerdam]

On 8/30/2024 at 8:37 AM, 9265359 said:

 

 

The guidance for airports on the introduction of EES says - 

 

During a 180-day transition period, the competent border authorities will check the stamps in the travel documents, in addition to the entry-exit data recorded in the EES. In case of a discrepancy, the stamp will prevail (Art. 22 of the Regulation).

 

 

So if I am (sort of) understanding that correctly they still will be stamping passports for 180 days after implementation?