Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[EtaC]

In my experience, while the US Navy prefers to use JP-5 for their gas turbine powered ships they can use DFM (diesel fuel marine) as well. On these ships the GTEs are directly coupled to the shafts by reduction gears which leads to some interesting fuel efficiency issues at low speeds. I'm guessing on a cruise ship they're connected to a generator and can be run at their most efficient speed. That said, they do have increased maintenance requirements over diesels which may drive up their operational costs.

[TRLD]

On 9/10/2024 at 7:45 AM, HappyInVan said:

 

IMO, the important insight is here...

 

“Viking has 10 ocean-going cruise ships today, and the first ship, which was delivered in 2015, was 40 percent more fuel efficient compared to ships of similar sizes built around 2000...”

 

HAL has 8 (out of 11) ships built in 2010 or earlier. The newest mega LNG ships must be of a different level of efficiency compared to the Volendam. That's why it makes no sense for HAL to take castoffs from the other brands. The cost of a major refit can't be justified by the short remaining working life as a first tier ship.

 

CCL has already closed P&O Australia who used to receive the castoffs from HAL. We have to be realistic.

nope. P&O Australia which will end next year is using old Princess Ships, not HAL. They might have gotten a couple in the past, but most have come from Princess. Their 3 ships are the previously Dawn Princess, Golden Princess and Star Princess.

 

If not for Covid they were in line for a couple of additional grand class ships. However with the hold on new orders for most CCL owned lines, all of the lines are holding onto ships longer. As a result no Princess ships available to transfer and as all 3 of P&O ships are old, it was a pretty easy decision to get the most value out of them by transfering the ships to Carnival.

 

Especially since P&O Australia was in direct competition there with its source of ships, Princess.  As well as Carnival itself on the discount, party boat element of P&O Australia. As a result the other lines can pick up the business easily. I expect once the transfer takes place next year the 2 P&O ships going to Carnival might end up staying in Australia under the Carnivsl brand.

 

 

[TRLD]

As far as gas turbines go, what is old is new again. The popularity of gas has changed as the availability and price of natural gas has fluctuated.  

 

 

This is from a press release from GE Marine in July 2002.

 

https://www.geaerospace.com/news/press-releases/marine-industrial-engines/ge-marine-engines-gas-turbine-based-system-powers-newly#:~:text=Currently there are a total,four Celebrity Cruises ships%2C Millennium%2C

 

EVENDALE, OHIO - GE Marine Engines announced that a GE LM2500+ gas turbine plant powers Royal Caribbean International's Brilliance of the Seas cruise ship that recently made its maiden voyage. 



The Brilliance of the Seas will sail in Europe, the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. The 962-foot long ship has a passenger capacity of 2,100, is of 90,090 gross tonnage and has a cruising speed of 25 knots. 



Currently there are a total of six cruise ships in operation that use a combined gas turbine and steam turbine integrated electric drive system (COGES) plant based on GE's LM2500+ gas turbines -- two Royal Caribbean ships, Brilliance of the Seas and Radiance of the Seas, and four Celebrity Cruises ships, Millennium, Infinity, Summit and Constellation. 

However they were not the only ones there were other projects at that time including HAL

 

Cunard Line: The Queen Mary 2 will use two LM2500+ gas turbine-generators combined with four diesels. This transatlantic liner will be the world's largest passenger vessel upon completion in late 2003. GE AEP will deliver equipment to the shipyard during November of this year. 



Carnival Corporation's Holland America: The first two LM2500 gas turbine-generator sets have been delivered to the shipyard and have been installed. These units, along with three other LM2500s, will be used for five new cruise ships. One LM2500 turbine-generator set, combined with five diesel generators, will be applied per ship. 



Princess Cruises: Coral Princess, Island Princess, Diamond Princess, and Sapphire Princess will each use one LM2500+ gas turbine-generator set in conjunction with medium-speed diesel engine-driven alternators. The ships are scheduled to join the fleet in December 2002, May 2003, June 2003 and May 2004, respectively. 

 

[EtaC]

The LM2500 family are the workhorse gas turbine engines. The Navy has been using them in surface combatants since the Spruance-class destroyers back in the 1970's. I do sense a possible misunderstanding though (if I'm mistaken I apologize). Gas turbines do not run on natural gas. They are essentially jet engines that turn a shaft rather than provide thrust. As such they run on liquid fuel such as JP-5 or DFM. In the case of the combined GTG/Diesel plants it probably is the latter.

[TRLD]

23 minutes ago, EtaC said:

The LM2500 family are the workhorse gas turbine engines. The Navy has been using them in surface combatants since the Spruance-class destroyers back in the 1970's. I do sense a possible misunderstanding though (if I'm mistaken I apologize). Gas turbines do not run on natural gas. They are essentially jet engines that turn a shaft rather than provide thrust. As such they run on liquid fuel such as JP-5 or DFM. In the case of the combined GTG/Diesel plants it probably is the latter.

The Navy may have their preferred fuel, but according to GE they are multifuel, including natural gas.  As per

 

https://www.gevernova.com/gas-power/products/gas-turbines/lm2500

 

LM2500 gas turbines can operate on a wide variety of fuels, like natural gas, diesel, aviation fuel, naphtha, LPG, ethane, ethanol, biodiesel and others, and have nearly 30 years of experience operating on fuels that contain hydrogen, totaling over 6 million operating hours using concentrations ranging from 5% to 95% (by volume).

Edited September 11 by TRLD

[HappyInVan]

On 9/9/2024 at 9:51 AM, Ken the cruiser said:

OTOH Viking has chosen not to go the LNG route. In fact, Hagen, the founder and chairman of Viking, is strongly opposed to it. He said LNG is another word for methane, which he said is 80 times worse than CO2 in terms of global warming.

 

Viking On Course to Hydrogen Fuel Cells - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

 

 

Regardless of the relative merits of LNG versus hydrogen in terms of GHG, the immediate future belongs to LNG.

 

“Hagen said that hydrogen will initially be more expensive but is projected to be a very competitive fuel by 2035...”

 

Viking has a starting fare 5x higher than Carnival. So, they can mess around with hydrogen. The budget brands will build LNG ships until at least 2035 because every dollar matters today.

 

All those mega LNG ships will create an LNG infrastructure. Smaller brands and ships can capitalize on that infrastructure. IMO, the only alternatives will be hybrid ships. Diesel+electric (small expedition ships). LNG+electric (large expedition ships), or LNG+diesel.

 

That said, some $$$$ brands will continue to operate small diesel ships, but they're at a different price point than Carnival or HAL.

 

[sambamama]

My cruise on the Noordam had half the pool loungers they used to have-half!! There are now a total of twenty by the main pool. So if you aren't there by 8, there is no chance of one.  This matters if there is bad weather a which my Asia cruise had. With good weather, its not a problem. They've cut lounger and chair space to add all the cabanas in. 

Everything apparently varies ship by ship and cruise by cruise. I'm not going to count on anything on my Alaska cruise. Then I won't be disappointed. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 hour ago, sambamama said:

My cruise on the Noordam had half the pool loungers they used to have-half!! There are now a total of twenty by the main pool. So if you aren't there by 8, there is no chance of one.  This matters if there is bad weather a which my Asia cruise had. With good weather, its not a problem. They've cut lounger and chair space to add all the cabanas in. 

Everything apparently varies ship by ship and cruise by cruise. I'm not going to count on anything on my Alaska cruise. Then I won't be disappointed. 

 

Considering how popular loungers are, this seems an odd decision. Is there alternate seating taking up the space produced by the missing loungers? Tables and chairs maybe? Or just empty space? 

 

I understand how you feel about paying so much extra for the cruise. It makes you look at value for money differently. I hope your Alaska cruise will exceed your [very low] expectations. 

[bbodb1]

On a slightly different note, as someone who is new to cruising (only our 2nd cruise) and comparing HAL to Carnival, one thing I find very frustrating about HAL is the inability to use OBC I know I have and HAL representatives acknowledge they can see the OBC to reserve dining prior to departure.  If this is correct (and I admit I could be missing something here), this is going to create a needless strain once onboard as a lot passengers attempt to make reservations at a point in time which I assume is the first (earliest) they could use OBC - is that correct? 

[*Miss G*]

6 minutes ago, bbodb1 said:

On a slightly different note, as someone who is new to cruising (only our 2nd cruise) and comparing HAL to Carnival, one thing I find very frustrating about HAL is the inability to use OBC I know I have and HAL representatives acknowledge they can see the OBC to reserve dining prior to departure.  If this is correct (and I admit I could be missing something here), this is going to create a needless strain once onboard as a lot passengers attempt to make reservations at a point in time which I assume is the first (earliest) they could use OBC - is that correct? 

 

It might be better to start a new topic with this question.  A lot of people aren’t going to be reading this thread with the way it’s evolving/devolving.

[oakridger]

16 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

It might be better to start a new topic with this question.  A lot of people aren’t going to be reading this thread with the way it’s evolving/devolving.

 

I answered @bbodb1 on their new thread.

[3rdGenCunarder]

To go back to the topic of HAL not getting any new ships, that could change. Sometimes Carnival Corp shifts a newbuild from its originally intentioned company to another. The first time Cunard was supposed to get Queen Victoria, the order was changed, and that ship went to a different line. I don't remember now where it went, but it was another few years later that Queen Victoria arrived.

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

To go back to the topic of HAL not getting any new ships, that could change. Sometimes Carnival Corp shifts a newbuild from its originally intentioned company to another. The first time Cunard was supposed to get Queen Victoria, the order was changed, and that ship went to a different line. I don't remember now where it went, but it was another few years later that Queen Victoria arrived.

Problem is that the only CCL using HAL size ships are HAL and Cunard.

Aida was as late as 10 years ago, but recent new builds are 5000 passenger ships.

Edited Saturday at 03:16 AM by TRLD

[HappyInVan]

13 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

To go back to the topic of HAL not getting any new ships, that could change. Sometimes Carnival Corp shifts a newbuild from its originally intentioned company to another. The first time Cunard was supposed to get Queen Victoria, the order was changed, and that ship went to a different line. I don't remember now where it went, but it was another few years later that Queen Victoria arrived.

 

 

That was 20 years ago. The Queen Victoria was launched in 2007.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunard_Line#Fleet

 

 

[JeffElizabeth]

On 9/8/2024 at 8:13 AM, UPNYGuy said:

DW and I occasionally venture to Oceania as well when we want to go out of the way. Occasionally, they have some unique itineraries that include Bermuda, and some itineraries for Alaska that go to less traveled ports.

Oceania reminds us most of the HAL we started cruising on in 1997. We have an Arctic Circle HAL cruise next Summer so we are willing to keep giving them a chance if the itinerary interests us enough. 

[mb777]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:26 AM, Sdfgh said:

The shows are packed because there is barely anything else to do, it is FOMO that bring people in. I am not suggesting that HAL leave their mid size ship niche, it is something that we are attracted to. 

"barely anything else to do"

How about picking up a book, relaxing and enjoying just being on the ship and entertaining yourself?

[Wasasalad]

10 minutes ago, mb777 said:

"barely anything else to do"

How about picking up a book, relaxing and enjoying just being on the ship and entertaining yourself?

I can entertain myself at home! I’m on a cruise for ports and entertainment on the ship!

[mb777]

12 minutes ago, Wasasalad said:

I can entertain myself at home! I’m on a cruise for ports and entertainment on the ship!

 

12 minutes ago, Wasasalad said:

I can entertain myself at home! I’m on a cruise for ports and entertainment on the ship!

I absolutely agree about the ports but your post said "The shows are packed because there is barely anything else to do" 

Seems you were talking about things to do in the evening, not touring while in port. 

[Sdfgh]

8 hours ago, mb777 said:

"barely anything else to do"

How about picking up a book, relaxing and enjoying just being on the ship and entertaining yourself?

Wow, what a wonderful idea, “pick up a book “. May I expand on that suggestion? Turn all the show venues into libraries, instead of the music walk we can call it the “music read”, no more Rolling Stones, now it’s the Reading Stories. 
In all seriousness, I do enjoy reading onboard, however, in the evening I would like to be able to attend a live performance. Most other cruise lines do provide that. I am very loyal to HAL , however, there is no reason to make excuses for them in areas where they are lacking. Cruise lines do make changes based upon customer feedback, HAL has been made aware of their substandard entertainment offerings and has turned a deaf ear to improving that issue. Smooth sailing to all.

[TRLD]

4 hours ago, Sdfgh said:

Wow, what a wonderful idea, “pick up a book “. May I expand on that suggestion? Turn all the show venues into libraries, instead of the music walk we can call it the “music read”, no more Rolling Stones, now it’s the Reading Stories. 
In all seriousness, I do enjoy reading onboard, however, in the evening I would like to be able to attend a live performance. Most other cruise lines do provide that. I am very loyal to HAL , however, there is no reason to make excuses for them in areas where they are lacking. Cruise lines do make changes based upon customer feedback, HAL has been made aware of their substandard entertainment offerings and has turned a deaf ear to improving that issue. Smooth sailing to all.

Apparently they have sufficient customers that considers there offerings to be acceptable.

[BermudaBound2014]

I absolutely agree that the shows are packed because there is 'barely anything else to do". And it's the same for  the 45 minute sets at the 2 (or 3) music venues. Jam packed because those are your only options (once in awhile there maybe a movie at the pool in the evening).

 

HAL has the fewest entertainment options of the mainstream lines, and it's crickets by midnight. It is what it is. IMO this is a large reason HAL has the reputation as a cruise line appealing most to the elderly. 

 

I sail HAL not because I find their entertainment options sufficient. But considering their very competitive fares for much longer, more interesting itineraries, I sail HAL in spite of their insufficient entertainment.

 

I know what I'm getting going in, and adjust accordingly. So, while their entertainment offerings are lacking, they get me as a customer by offering inexpensive (relative) longer voyages. If one of the other mainstream lines was offering similar long itineraries at the same price point, I'd likely take my travel dollars elsewhere. 

 

Certainly lots of HAL passengers are content to just read a book. I prefer a bit more lively action in the evening. If HAL offered better entertainment I would likely enjoy my long voyages more, but every cruise line has pros and cons. IMO HAL's largest con is activity and entertainment options yet they are managing to fill ships in spite of this because they are offering great itineraries at value based pricing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyInVan]

IMHO, the problem is that HAL used to be Cunard-lite. These days, HAL is seen as Carnival-small, and (worst) as a floating retirement home. Its cheaper than a motel room!!! 🙄

[EtaC]

7 hours ago, Sdfgh said:

Wow, what a wonderful idea, “pick up a book “. May I expand on that suggestion? Turn all the show venues into libraries, instead of the music walk we can call it the “music read”, no more Rolling Stones, now it’s the Reading Stories. 
In all seriousness, I do enjoy reading onboard, however, in the evening I would like to be able to attend a live performance. Most other cruise lines do provide that. I am very loyal to HAL , however, there is no reason to make excuses for them in areas where they are lacking. Cruise lines do make changes based upon customer feedback, HAL has been made aware of their substandard entertainment offerings and has turned a deaf ear to improving that issue. Smooth sailing to all.

Please, substandard in your opinion. HAl has, in my opinion, the best live music and dance floor size of any line I've been on recently, and that includes Princess and NCL. As I've made clear in other posts I don't consider the main theater entertainment to be important. On my recent Oosterdam trip the music walk venues were packed until midnight and I don't think it's because there weren't other options. Back in the 2000's HAL ships seemed to live up the old "average age is dead" stereotype as there was nothing to do besides the main stage shows and the P-ways rolled up after 9. At most there was a small combo in the Crow's Nest that was poorly attended. That has not been the case since they uipped the live music venues. I've made them aware that I appreciate the change. 

[BermudaBound2014]

29 minutes ago, EtaC said:

 On my recent Oosterdam trip the music walk venues were packed until midnight and I don't think it's because there weren't other options. 

 

This is GREAT news, but I have never seen a HAL band play until Midnight on any ship I've sailed, nor have I seen that schedule posted on any review I've read. That would mean the last set started at 11:15 (to play until 12:00). Perhaps someone can please post a daily schedule showing the last set starting at 11:15?

 

In my experience the last set starts at 10:30 or 10:45 (ending at 11:15 or 11:30). By midnight it's a ghost ship. Also no food options anywhere other than room service past 11:00 or so. HAL does not offer anything past midnight other than the casino. On other main stream lines we close the bar at 2:00-3:00 a.m. and then hit up one of the 24 hour food venues for some bar chow. On HAL it's early to bed, early to rise and and that's totally fine as long as expectations are set appropriately. But IMO casting HAL as some late night party ship where the bars are hopping past midnight is setting folks up for disappointment. 

 

PS: You said bars you didn't think it was because there weren't other options, but what other options were there at midnight other than music hall? I'm very curious as I'm sailing Oosterdam shortly. 

 

 

Edited Monday at 06:14 PM by BermudaBound2014

[EtaC]

Well, scanning is a little tough for me but in general the music ended between 1130 and midnight. I'm looking at one where the last RS set started at 11 and the Billboard at 1045. They did have recorded music after the set ended, but I don't know how long that ran. And yes, the Lido closed at 1130 leaving room service as the only late night food option.

 

I'm not claiming things are still rolling after midnight. The ship definitely closes down then except for a few casino people. But to be going until then is fine for me. Get a good night's sleep and be ready for the next day Back in the day things rolled up at 1000 after the late show ended. 

 

The Jester was on the same Oosterdam cruise I was and wrote a long review of it here and on the CC review page. you might want to look it up.

Edited Monday at 06:38 PM by EtaC
add reference to review