AVOID Park West Galleries Auction at Sea

[kingsgirl]

Hi everyone,

I am an Artist and a collector. We did buy a few prints from Park west.

 

When Parkwest started they had a good idea and they were able to give you great prices on works of Art. Also when they started the internet, ebay was not what it is today where you can get fantastic prices on works of Arts. Specially if you can buy directly from the Artist.

 

You have to know what you are buying so you can pay a fair market price for the Art. Parkwest does not give you much information like they used to, they are becoming a Wall Mart of Art. All they care about today is selling, selling and selling. They used to spend time in telling you about the artist and explaining the media(check below for a quick lesson on medias).

 

Parkwest does something that is considered illegal in some states. All auctions Southerby, ebay and all other legal auctions the auction house does not own the item that they are selling, the are selling on behalf of someone else and the 15% or 20% that they charge is their commission. Parkwest buys a gallery going out of business or directly from the artist and set their own price.

Example: they go to an artist and ask to buy a series of limited edition prints, they buy 1000 prints and give the artist $25,000 for it. They tern around and sell each print for $125 or more and make $100,000 in profit and charge you 15% to pay for their expenses.

 

Buying ART:

Rule #1 always buy something that you like. Rule #2 buy only what you can afford (you can afford more than you think you can). Rule #3 make sure that you will not come home and say to yourself What was I thinking off?.

 

Know what you are Buying.

 

The most valuable Art and the best investment that will increase in value every few month is: Original one of a kind painting made completely by the Artist's hand. You will pay a lot for this, and the best place to buy it is directly from the artist. You can even negotiate the price. It is not hard to buy directly from the artist specially with the internet where you can search and find the artist. When I exhibit and sell in a gallery I always double my prices, the gallery charges 40% and up to hang and sell your painting.

 

Limited edition lithograph and serigraph. Always check the edition number 34/290 (the second number) a decent number of the print is 300 or less. Today some artist print edition of 2000 and more of the same print. The more famous the artist the most likely that the artist hired someone to actually do the printing for him and he inspect them and number and sing them.

 

Artist Proof (AP) are some times numbered. Before the artist does a print he does proofs to make sure that the color does not leak and it is exactly what he desires. In the old days they used to throw the proof out. Today do to the high cost of paper ($10 and up per sheet) and the high cost of ink, the artist sell these proofs for less that the price of the series. When they tell you that the print was embellished by the artist, that means that the artist was correcting the mistakes by hand so the print can look more presentable and can be sold. Parkwest makes it out to be something fantastic like the artist actually painted the piece and try to sell them for more money. BEWARE Parkwest auction off limited edition Prints and when you receive them they are Artist proof and not the series that you bid on. When you contact them they tell you that in the contract they can send you the exact image that has the same value BUT an AP print even if numbered has a lower value that the actual edition for the same print. This did happened to us.

 

Giclee Prints have the lowest value of any print even if it is on canvas or has the lowest possible edition of 2. Giclee print are produced with a very expensive printer and all the artist does is create the original image and sign and number them. They will never go up in price. They are a great source for spending the least to decorate your house. I sell Giclee prints in my web-site and on ebay for $15 each to cover the cost of the expensive paper and ink. I don't make any money on them, I sell them just to get my name out there and if the person likes the print they might return and buy an original painting.

 

Signed in Plate are nothing more than a very high quality poster that the artist had nothing to do with it except give permission to reproduce the image. I love this about parkwest they sell you this as an original print. Congratulations you have won an original Print from our raffle or for showing up. These are always signed in plate prints (we have 12 of them still in the tubes unopened. If you win just one don't waste your money on the $35 in shipping. Park west make money on the shipping.

 

Rembrandt and other dead artist. Sometimes they do sell prints by dead artist that have some values, like a Picasso but you will pay the fair market price. Again with today internet you can do as well or better.

A few years ago on the princess line (pre-carnival) they hold their own auctions they were selling a limited edition Picasso for $10,000 that was a fantastic deal. Today no one will sell you that print for less than $30,000. BEWARE Park west are selling Original Rembrandt for thousand of dollars. What they don't tell you is that these prints are not from the period of the artist life time, they are a limited edition reproduction from the same plate. They forget to tell you that these prints were done from the family of the estate of the people that own the original print. Yes they have some value and they are excellent quality reproduction of the artist's work but they will never hold the value of the original vintage print. These new prints are overly priced by parkwest and again since they own the series they can charge anything they want thus they are not a true auction house.

 

 

** You can still find decent prices and get a good bargain from parkwest or other auctions at seas but you must have an idea to what you are looking at. do you homework on the internet and you will be able to tell the difference in Art. I still collect art and have lots of fun and satisfaction in owning original works of art.

Ezi

 

THank you for your detailed post! That's the most I've learned about art from anyone!

[logan1_2000]

I view the art at Park West auctions like furniture, or drapes, or anything else in our house for decoration and furnishings. Does it look like something you'd like to look at, and see on your wall? Are you willing to pay a certain price for that decoration? That's about it. Something is "worth" whatever someone, sucker or otherwise, is willing to pay for it. Decide up front, as in I can tell you right now that I am willing to pay $50 for champagne/sparkling wine, but not $150 (thus, all of my dom perignon has been via gifts). So I know my limit. As in "that's a nice looking decoration to put on my wall" and I am willing to pay $200. I dont expect to buy anything worth any amount at all. Not even the amount I pay, let alone any amount over that. No one would pay me anything for my couch, or my rug, I dont assume--and I make the same disposable income, no recovery value assumption on park west art.

 

I did come away from a cruise with about 4 pieces a couple years ago. They decorate the main hallway of my house. I have no idea who painted them, or rather, which artist or illustrator did the original from which the lithos were produced. Fine.

 

The paintings to me are worth the price of the decoration. As for another respondents analogy to buying logo merchandise, I did not quite get the comparison. Were you calling purchasers of souveniers suckers or fools? And were you saying that one should nor buy on the "sale" day when the shirt is priced $10 or $15 less than the inflated price the rest of the cruise (so that the sale price might finally be the reasonable, land-based retail price one would expect for a shirt of similar quality?). So, I should buy for $49, not $39? Its the same matter--there is no residual value, just, how much am I willing to pay and how much will I enjoy wearing the shirt.

 

I'm not shilling for park west--I laugh and throw out their auction catalogs that I get in the mail at home, might be for when they hold events in ATL, but I dont know because I dont read it. See, the paintings arent any more worthless than when I bought--just that my walls are full, no more decorations needed. And I agree that an auction format both adds an entertainment fun aspect to things, and is also a way to encourage people to get caught up and overpay--and there is no misleading about that. No one at any cruise ship art auction ever had a gun pointed to their head. And yes, you have to consider the price of framing, which is often a higher price than one might think (over a hundred to frame my $39 New Orleans JazzFest poster...)

[LonW]

I suspected the same thing! Sitting in the very back row, I thought the auctioneer was accepting bids from someone I couldn't see. At the beginning they made a passing comment about "dealers" who were in the room and who would signal without raising a number. It all seemed very shady to me.

 

During the viewing hour before the auction, the "senior consultants" were stalking the room and pressuring people to place a written bid on pieces "otherwise they won't come up to auction." I wonder if folks didn't realize they were actually setting an opening bid at that point?

 

One consultant, named Crystal I believe, asked me if I liked any of the pieces. I pointed to a painting I liked by an artist with an impressionist style. Of course, I had scrutinized the "painting" and realized that it was a giclee, which is a high-quality reproduction that can be printed on large canvas. This particular giclee was indeed on a large canvas, and then had several dabs of paint here and there which represented accents or personalization by the artist (?), making the piece ‘unique’. As someone who has stretched many canvases and painted in many different media, it was very obvious to me what this piece really was.

 

Now, as far as she knew I was someone who was just an uninformed consumer, but that Park West senior consultant did not explain to me that the piece was a reproduction with a few dabs of paint (presumably by the artist, but you have to wonder...). She said the artist was "new to the gallery" and created the impression that he was a young up-and-coming artist that I should jump at the opportunity to collect. She came back later and said I could place an opening bid of $1800 for that painting.

 

Now, the giclee in question was a Venice scene by Marko Mavrovich, who is not a new up-and-comer, but is in fact an established artist who has been around for many years. As I said earlier, I am not pretending to be an expert art appraiser, so that quoted price may be somewhat reasonable for a Marko Mavrovich reproduction on canvas, but I highly doubt it!

 

Marko Mavrovich Giclee on Canvas, Hand Embellished in Oil could cost that much depends on the size and number. Check on the internet found they cost $650 to $1,300 and up.

[ezi-amy]

Just because they have Marko Giclee for $650 to $1,300 on the internet means that they are selling them. Some people pay a lot of money on Giclee prints, Unfortunately they will not hold the value. Giclee printing is fairly new method (about 2 years old) and many people don't know much about it. Eventually when people have a better understanding of Giclee the price will go down. Giclee printing is done by machine (large printers). Lithographs and Serigraphs are done by hand manually each color has to be done separately and it has to be lined up perfectly. It takes days or even weeks to print one series, each color has to dry before the next is applied.

 

You can not compare limited edition prints to furniture. If you buy a sofa and a couch for the same price at the same time, 10 years later you will be able to sell the print for more than you paid for it (just for the cost of living alone, the price of the frame will go up) . In 10 years the sofa that you bought you will not be able to give it away.

 

As for framing a print you can buy a frame from Ac Moore or Mikael and frame it yourself. It is not hard to do and you can save hundred of dollars. We have 16 prints that we bought from different ships, some came framed others we had them framed (for more than the price of the print) others I framed myself. We are out of wall space, we even have smaller print hanging in the Bathroom. No more prints from the auctions for us, unless we can get an incredible deal.

[yogimax]

Eventually when people have a better understanding of Giclee the price will go down.

 

Sorry, but I disagree. If you compare a giclee with a lithograph or serigraph, the difference will be immediate. To anyone who looks, the giclee will appear to be much more like an original work of art.

 

Place a giclee next to a serigraph and ask the buyer which they would like to own. The answer will be immediate - the giclee.

 

True, the process of creating a serigraph or lithograph may be more "artistic." However, we are talking about perceptions. In the eyes of the buyer (most of whom will be artistic novices) the giclee looks a lot better. Thus, the value of the giclee is more likely to increase over time as opposed to the serigraph or lithograph.

[john & Gerrie nj]

The object is to bilk as much as possible from the sheep.

It if wasn't a profitible venture for the cruise lines there wouoldn't be on on every ship.

Just how mant pairs of Mohamad Ali's shorts and gloves are there?

I was on 5 different cruise ships this year and would swear they all had the same art,

It is fun to go to the qusi Auction and whatch the sheep get sheared.

"Beauty is in the eye of the bewildered".

Park West is probably intertwined with the shops on board organization in some way.

A little digging will get you the list of how much some of the aproved shops pay to be "aproved shops and in the books. Diamonds InternationalGroup

pays Discovery Shopping over 2 million a year. PW is no different.

It's pay to fleece. I'd Like to see RCL boot them off the line.

We had a run in with PW ( about tying up the hall on deck 8 to the point we couldn't get to ourr cabin) on the Empress and PW has so much pull the

Empress staff could'nt do anything about it.

john

[takeatrip]

There was no avoiding the thing on the Grandeur. They took up the whole Centrum for the auctions.

[Cuizer2]

If you are looking for art as an investment, the link below is to a story about a very expensive collectible work of art that recently lost some value ...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061018/od_nm/picasso1_dc

[ezi-amy]

Thanks Cruizer2, That's about a hundred million dollar Oops..

 

John & Gerrie do you collect postcards? that looks like the Carpathia.

I have a Great ocean liners postcard collection.

 

Its a shame that every company that start with a great idea become too big for their own good and then they become greedy. When Park West first started it was on the Celebrity Zenith, the first time we went saw a Park West Auction was on the Horizon (sister to the Zenith) in 1997. They had great prices, too bad we didn't know any better and take advantage of it.

The other one is ebay, they used to have very reasonable prices to list an item in their auctions. Today it cost at least $3 and up to list something, if you list 10 items you will have to make $50 just come come out even (that is counting end of auctions fees and paypal fees). That does not include the price that cost you to buy the item in the first place. I used to do a lot of trading on ebay by selling and buying postcards and other collectibles. Remember Paypal used to be free for a few years.

[john & Gerrie nj]

Not post card collectors but I really like them .

I have a nice sheet music oddities collection and I collect watches.

john

[Bebet]

We've bought 3 Benfield lithographs on one cruise and won a Le Kneuf (sp?) had them in the mailing tube for along time. Had them framed and put up in our new house. On my second cruise I sat through the auctions and collected raffle tickets to win another Le kneuf print that I liked for free. I had it framed and put up in my new living room. Did we get a deal, I don't know? Do we enjoy the art, yes. I have no regrets. As long as you go into the auction knowing the ropes no one should be upset with their choices. No one is forced to attend or buy the art.

[yogimax]

I chuckle at all those who are complaining about the art being a "scam."

 

Just one comparison - bingo or art auction? You'll do a lot better buying art than a bingo card!

[kavanaugh77]

As an avid cruiser I personally Look forward to Park West Galleries Art Auctions.I Have purchased some great pieces won many pieces via raffle/ trivia . I am a professional picture framer so I never have PW frame my items but I Have never gotten a bum deal with the price I have check on ebay etc for same pieces and saved big money I also have sold a few pieces I have purchased from Parkwest to customers that I have . so Park west is not a scam and people should go and have fun maybe learn a little about art etcc. And NO I dont drink the free champagne either

[john & Gerrie nj]

Ebay isn't a Bell Weather for art prices.As long as you enjoyed the activity and enjoy the copies I'm happy for you.

a scam is a scam is a scam.

Ever wonder why the auctions are at sea in international waters?

I have fun in the unregulated casino. so why shoouldn't others have fun at

a pretend auction of art copies.

the worst cruise I was ever on was wondwerfull.

john

[shipshape sam]

It clearly is a rip off from an investment standpoint. WHO sellls something for cents on the dollar. If the painting is worth $10,000.00. Why would they sell it for $2,000.00?! Because it is NOT worth $10,000.00!

 

Do the paintings/prints have value? For sure, and that is how I would advise anyone to bid. Bid on the pleasure you will gain/enjoy by viewing it over time.

[ezi-amy]

Park West auction is NOT a scam. Like anything else before you buy do your homework and compare prices.

If you buy an expensive TV you shop around and look for the best price. Just because Circuit City have the TV for a $100 less than Best Buy doesn't mean that Best Buy is trying to scam you.

Park West like everyone else is out to make money.

 

Park West don't have the best prices, but you can still get a good bargain once in a while. Just make sure that you like the print, you will be looking at it for a long time.

 

Want the best price for art? Find the artist contact him and buy directly from the artist. Most of them can be found on the Internet, they all have email addresses and are eager to sell their work.

[Charles4515]

Park West auction is NOT a scam. Like anything else before you buy do your homework and compare prices.

 

You protest too much. The truth is that the auctions at sea are for those who are as another poster put it "sheep". But hey, for those of you who take the bait and buy that factory produced dreck, thank you for helping to pay for my cruises.

[Cruzn Chuck & Susan]

Le Kinff? woman artist? Beautiful work!

[shipshape sam]

Park West auction is NOT a scam. Like anything else before you buy do your homework and compare prices.

If you buy an expensive TV you shop around and look for the best price. Just because Circuit City have the TV for a $100 less than Best Buy doesn't mean that Best Buy is trying to scam you.

Park West like everyone else is out to make money.

 

Park West don't have the best prices, but you can still get a good bargain once in a while. Just make sure that you like the print, you will be looking at it for a long time.

 

Want the best price for art? Find the artist contact him and buy directly from the artist. Most of them can be found on the Internet, they all have email addresses and are eager to sell their work.

 

 

Explain then how, not once, but multiple time each cruise they tell the crowd that the painting/print/etc is worth so much, but are willing to sell it for so much less. Why would they not just go find the people who are willing to pay so much? The painting/print/etc does have value, not anything close to what they tell people.

[SA Traveler]

We've bought several lithographs and we enjoy them. We aren't collectors and we haven't paid big bucks for anything. Lately the auctions we've attended have had the big dollar works "presold" and the auction was just going through the motions and the auctioneers have been upfront about that. It's hard to believe anyone would part with multiple thousands of $$ without doing their homework. At the start of each auction everything is explained quite clearly - I have never in 15 cruises seen anything that seemed to be misrepresented. Some auctioneers are better than others and do a better job but that's true in any other occupation too. The art auctions are two hours out of each sea day at the max so it's pretty easy to avoid them if they cause you heartburn. Personally I enjoy them.

[shipshape sam]

No heartburn here.

 

No one yet has been able to explain or provide an adequate rationale for selling something, as they claim, that is worth thousands of dollars for much less than they claim it is worth.

 

I have never said, not to buy something or that anyone buying would not enjoy the art, quite the contrary. My statement is only on what I would call a big 'stretch' in the truth as to true value on the open market. Is there one piece they have worth a lot. I do not know as I do not buy, but time after time they tout huge value on most of the pieces and then sell for pennies on the dollar.

 

Maybe everyone knows it is a joke. :)

[gsb]

Drinking the bubbly, watching the auctioneer getting all the bidders excited.:p

[dfishner]

To me the art auctions are fun, I have bought some things on the ships and won a couple of raffles. If you think you are buying art that will increase in value of the years you would be making a mistake.

 

The last cruise I was on I went and bought nothing and had a blast.

 

As far as what they say the art is worth to me it is like list price no one ever buys something for list price.

 

If you do not like the auction then don't go, but there are many across different cruise lines that do have the art auction and it must be paying off for Park West and the cruise ships.

[phopte]

The reality is that, as with anything else, the true value of the art is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what a listed price is. Like with automobiles, houses, jewelery and anything else, it is only worth what it will bring on the open market. As to why is it cheaper on the ship in international waters, I don't know. I also don't know why a diamond on one of the islands is much less that the same stone in the US. Why are prices on most everything so much cheaper in the Carribbean than in the US? I obviously have some ideas and know there are issues with duties, sales taxes, mark-ups, etc. As with jewelery, clothing and other items, it is important to do your research and buy what you like at a price you feel comfortable with. After all, isn't the definition of a successful transaction one in which the seller and the buyer both feel that they got the better deal? :D

 

I personally enjoy the auctions. On the other hand, I wouldn't know or care if they closed the casinos down and used the space for something else. Different strokes for different folks is the way I look at it. I am just amazed at how vocal the people are that don't like the auctions. Everything that adds to the bottom line of the cruise line keeps the cost of my cruise lower and for that I am grateful. There seems to be a large variety of things to do onboard and I pick and choose those that I participate in.

[Turk]

I guess I‘m resurrecting this thread, but I wanted to relay a story that happened to me and my wife at one of the Park West auctions. Sorry if this is long.

 

I attended an auction on one of RC ships some years ago. The auctioneer seemed very knowledgeable and I felt confident when he offered a Daly I was interested in as the second auction. It was called “beatris” and was an unusual piece in that it was not a bunch of contorted image that Daly is famous for. But a picture of his wife standing next to God. It was from a collection from France that was signed in a hotel room (one of 25) and stamped with a raised seal as part of a collection. It was a special piece and an original. The starting bid was $2400 and I jumped in and won at that price with no others bidding. This was not a traditional $500-700 print, but something that could be documented (the seal) and was signed in pencil and numbered by Daly himself. I was happy even if the piece was not worth all that he said.

 

Park West would not let us take the piece off the ship saying that the custom charges would be very high. This was a lie. There would have been no charges. The piece was taken away as soon as the auction was over and I could not see it. After talking to the auctioneer after the auction, he agreed to get the print and display it on an easel that evening which he did. I was able to take some very close up pictures of the art before it was whisked away never to be seen again. They shipped a print some months later to me framed and intact, but . . . it was not my print! How could this be? No signature, number or raised seal. I called the Daly expert in New York (His name escapes me) and ask him about the switch. He told me that he himself had viewed the exact print and authorized it as a genuine print and signature for Park West. His value was $6500.00. He said Park West is a reparable auction house and that they would make it right. They said no! They said they had the right to ship a similar print and that it is clearly spelled out in their auction program (it is!) Unfortunately, they had written the description up in the same booklet as part of a collection, raised seal, signed in pencil. My pictures affirmed this. My attorney liked it also. To make a long story short, I spoke with the CEO of Park West who realized his error, he subsequently told me the piece was sold already to someone else and could not be returned. My attorney told him to find another. One of 25 pieces in the world! Several months later they send me another – signed, sealed but a different number. I had it checked for it’s authenticity through the contact in New York. It indeed was OK. Wonder what that cost them!

 

By the way, the auctioneer turned up the next night as the DJ up in the disco! Multi tasker I guess. After the scam was discovered, Park West and RCCL fired him. He became the sacrificial lamb.

 

My advise to you is be very cautious in participating in these auctions and always take your art with you unframed. Do not let them talk you into shipping your purchase. Before you bid, stop the auction and ask them if you win, can you take the art with you. If they say “No”, walk out. You’ve got a better chance in the casino.