Should HAL disclose when it is partially chartering a ship

[Odd Ball]

OBC upon boarding would mean little or nothing to us. We wouldn't want compensation; we want the cruise promised that we had paid for or at least the option of canceling our vacation before we had arrived at the ship.

I feel the same way. I want to know ahead of time so I can decide what I want to do.

What good does it do to be told upon boarding ? It wouldn't help the situation.

[hammybee]

OBC upon boarding would mean little or nothing to us. We wouldn't want compensation; we want the cruise promised that we had paid for or at least the option of canceling our vacation before we had arrived at the ship.

 

I am not being snarky here when I ask what it is that you were promiced and who made that promice to you?

[sail7seas]

Everything pictured and verbally described on HAL's website and their brochures. That includes CrowsNest and aft pool.

 

Most reasonable people can understand and accept occassional interruptions in the availability of these venues but not total loss of access to some but access for other guests for the duration of an entire cruise.

 

[Odd Ball]

I am not being snarky here when I ask what it is that you were promiced and who made that promice to you?

 

I am not Peaches :D , but since I agree with her and others , I will give you my answer.

I book a cruise. I don't expect to be excluded from public areas or asked to leave because of a group. I expect what is advertised in those brochures. I expect what is described on Hal's web site. I don't want compensation. I want the cruise I paid for.

 

 

Looks like Sails and I posted at the same time.

[peaches from georgia]

I am not being snarky here when I ask what it is that you were promiced and who made that promice to you?

I don't mean if HAL's marketing tools say the food is fabulous and we don't find it so that we have been cheated. No, I don't mean if the brochure pictures show a sunny day on a lounge at the pool that I am cheated if it rains or I get up at noon and the lounges are already taken.

 

I feel what I think most posters here do- we are promised the basic facilities of the ship to be available for all pax at least a majority of the time. If HAL sings the praises of the Crows Nest in their marketing then I don't think it should be closed to all but one group for the entire cruise. If the Pinnacle grill is closed for the entire cruise because it is reserved for a special group, I think that is wrong. If the Pinnacle is closed for the entire cruise because there has been a fire in the PG's kitchen, I would be entirely understanding.

 

We are probably one of the least complaining and most easy-going couples who sail with HAL. People on this board who sail with us know this. But, we do expect to have the ship's facilities available. I consider that a promise HAL has made.

[hammybee]

Ditto what Peaches said. I don't want Compensation...... I really hate that word.

 

What I want is the cruise we purchased. We want access to all public areas of the ship we are normally permitted to use and enjoy. There isn't enough OBC they are going to compensate us for denying us access to aft pool on a bright, gorgeous sea day as happened to us when we were not part of the huge group that was aboard with us.

 

We lost most of a sea day at the pool. When they forced us to leave at about 12:30 or 1:00 P.M., it was too late to try and get lounges at Lido Pool. We were VERY unhappy that day.

 

While I have not experienced this on a cruise, it has happened to me on several occasions, over the past ten or so years, at hotel resorts, Marriott, Hyatt and 4 Seasons.

 

There is growing precedent within the hospitality industry to use perceived public space for group functions. Some resorts now have disclaimers that certain areas of the resort may, from time to time, be reserved for private parties and indeed they are. I am also aware of this happening within home-ower associations and public park districts, whereby the pool, golf course or tennis courts can be rented for a private event and the heck with everyone else.

 

I am thinking the entire concept of "public space" is being reverse engineered by those who own and /or manage the space so that when such space is not being dedicated to a private function, it is available for use by guests, at large.

[sail7seas]

Hammy......

 

We aren't talking about Four Seasons or Marriott. We are talking about HAL. There are definite differences betweens ships and hotels....one being the inability to go out the door when denied access to a lounge and go find another down the street or around the corner.

 

If CrowsNest is closed off to all but the group, maybe Ocean Bar is too busy to be pleasant or appealing to go to in the alternative. That's it; take it or leave it.

 

I expect you fully understand our point and while you don't wish to take this position (and it is your perogative to take whatever position you wish), you get it. I know you are fully understanding our point.

 

I'm done repeating myself and restating what others have said. If I haven't made my point by now, I never will.

 

But I think those of us who think it wrong to shut out people from the CrowsNest for the entire cruise and open it to people part of a private group is NOT the same as The Four Seasons having a private wedding in a function room and only invited guests are welcome.

 

I'm done now. :) Either I have expressed myself clearly or not but I'm tired of this subject so will stand by what I have said. There are times when it becomes an argument simply for the sake of being argumentative and contrary. I don't wish to go there.

 

 

There is no bigger cheerleader for HAL than me.....there may be some as enthusiastic but none more so but sometimes they make a mis-step and most reasonable people think this is one of them.

 

 

 

[Sea King]

isn't this really about honesty and integrity?

 

put another way, doesn't Seattle have at least a moral obligation to fully disclose what it has actually done versus letting a pax board and find a "surprise across the gangway"

 

of course economics controls

 

but the point shouldn't economics should come 2nd to customer loyalty

[serendipity1499]

First off - there is no such thing as a "Partial Charter".

 

Charters book an entire ship for a sailing and are responsible for setting prices and making all sales for that particular cruise, and paying the line a fixed pre-established rate to charter the ship. The charter company is on the hook to HAL for making it a profitable venture - if they do not succeed, the charter company loses, not HAL.

 

Groups merely book a block of space on an open cruise and get certain perks and price breaks depending on the number of bookings - HAL is still on the hook for marketing that cruise and making it profitable, not the Group. Anywhere from 8 persons or more booking together are considered a "Group". Your family booking together for a reunion can be considered a "Group" if you have 8 or more persons booking together...

 

 

 

"First off - there is no such thing as a "Partial Charter", is not entirely true..

 

How do you know for a fact that HAL & all other Cruise Lines do not sell Partial Charters? Our company and all the European & Domestic Carriers, we ever dealt with sold "Partial Charters" as well as "Full Charters" all the time..A charter is from one point to another & each subsequent leg of space has a separate contract..

 

When an organization booked a "partial charter" with us, they actually leased X number of seats on our regularly scheduled aircraft & paid us up front for the seats...It was up to them to sell or not sell the seats..They had a Charter Contract & special Charter Rates...They never had to give us passenger lists until approx 10-15 days before departure..On a 360 Psgr Aircraft I've seen as many as 200 seats go to a partial charter..The charter rates were always lower than our Group rates..If those 200 seats were not sold, our flights were half empty but we were still paid for those seats at the Charter rate....Those seats were taken out of inventory & we could not book any of our passengers in them..Ocassionally if we had an overbooking problem,;) we could buy back some of those seats at a steep price from the Chartering Organization..Charterers had the ability to decide what to charge each passenger..We never talked to Charter Passengers & always refereed them to the Chartering Organization...We had a separate Charter Dept who handled our Charters..

 

We also sold to groups which didn't have a contract...The organization or TA would block X Number of seats (ex. 30 seats) for their group at the regular passenger rate..We helped to promote the groups & even helped to pay for some of the ads & brochures...Of course the TA got nice overrides in those days..Groups were given one Tour Conductor's seat at either half off or free depending on the number of sold group passengers.... TA's were given a time limit to give us the deposit & then final payment with names of all the passengers in the group.. Usually 30 days prior to departure..In those days the TA's issued the tickets..When I was with the company for 3 years they promoted me to the Group Desk...The Trans-Atlantic carrier was responsible for booking all the arrival & continuing flight, even on other Carriers..We tried not to talk to the Group Passengers either, but if they had deviations, many times the TA would advise them to contact us directly with those deviations... There were times when a TA would hire me on my day off with my Company's approval to help issue group tickets..

 

You may be right about cruise lines not booking partial charters, but wonder where you got this information from..

 

Hopefully a knowledgeable TA who is still in the business will get on & give us current info..:) Betty.

[serendipity1499]

Oops..Double post sorry

[hammybee]

Hammy......

 

I expect you fully understand our point and while you don't wish to take this position (and it is your perogative to take whatever position you wish), you get it. I know you are fully understanding our point.

 

I wonder how my stars are aligned the past 24 hours because I certainly seem to be out of step with many on this board, more so than usual. :)

 

Of course I understand your point and from a general sence we are in agreement. I will even say it would be swell if HAL discontinued group bookings and returned to valuing customers like you and me. I also wish I looked the way I did 25 years ago.:)

 

Groups are lucrative business for major resort hotels with international sales staff dedicated to securing this business. Resort hotels have turned facilities that used to be available to all guests into new business opportunities. I am not talking about renting out the ballroom for a wedding. I am talking about resort pools, tennis courts, golf courses and casinos- facilities that all guests typically enjoy and there are no similar alternatives available, down the road, if there is even a road.

 

Cruising is a segment of the hospitality business. Cruise lines are competing with hotels for group business and cruise lines are attracting more and more groups. Therefore, it is to be expected that cruise lines will use the same tactics as resort hotels- that being a redefinition of their space and facilities to secure group bookings, when it makes financial sense to do so.

 

How you or I feel about this does not matter to resorts and cruise lines. If it did, the resorts would have been stopped in their tracks a long time ago. For every guest lost, they might gain 100 new happy campers eager to book next year's big event before they leave. It's a numbers game, with no end in sight.

 

I do not think it practical for cruise lines to pre-notify pax when there is potential for a group to dominate a cruise. There is an active thread about how HAL chartered one of its ships 8-9 months into the future and the OP was clearly looking for HAL to pay for her disappointment, above and beyond out of pocket expenses. Some of us thought her stance to be a bit over the top. It does give us a clue what it must be like to be " Seattle" and deal with

the growing sense of entitlement of the cruising public.

 

So no, I think it better to proceed as planned and deal with it. If it were up to me I would do so upon pax boarding. Knowing that the aft pool will be unavailable between 1-4 on Tuesday is better than learning this at 12:30 on Tuesday. I also would be disinclined to close an entire venue for the duration of a cruise without compensating those pax who lost access.

 

But it is not up to you or me. HAL is taking the road of ignoring it. And for every pax who choses to sail another cruise line, chances are, there are hundreds more willing to rebook, because they were treated so well on their group cruise.

[Jemima]

Jemima, You raise several good questions but the one I am quoting is the tip of the iceberg as it relates to disclosure issues.

 

What does composition mean? And how might a cruise line determine who will or will not fit in with other pax?

 

Hammybee - Note that I wrote these were questions that wouldn't be answered. A cruise line can't determine who will/won't fit in, nor should they. Passengers on any cruise are a widely varied lot, but the average passengers on HAL aren't the average passengers on Carnival.

Most large groups book through TAs and large agencies usually have a department or person who handles that kind of booking. These agencies should recommend cruise lines that are a good fit for the group, have the facilities needed by the group and can accommodate the group without seriously impacting the cruise enjoyment of other passengers. When this is done, both group members and other passengers will have a more enjoyable cruise.

[kryos]

should HAL tell those booking a particular itinerary that a "large group" (at least 50% or more of ship's capacity) will be aboard

 

what do you think?

Absolutely! And I only wish the travel agent community would fight for this.

 

Believe me, I'd rather HAL charter a ship out from under me, thus cancelling my cruise plans, than book an affinity group onboard my sailing where that group was large enough to actually take over the ship. I can't imagine it would be very much fun to have one's entire cruise geared toward a StarTrek theme, or a TV show theme that one is not in the slightest bit interested in. Such a large group would totally dominate the cruise and EVERYTHING onboard would be geared to them. The non-group member would find the shows onboard leaning towards this theme, or may even find regular HAL shows cancelled in favor of special shows brought onboard by the group. Non-group passengers would also find some venues closed off to them at certain times for special group-only events.

 

Believe me, I've read some tales of woe on both this board and others about large groups ruining a cruise for non-group members. It's not fair and all cruise lines should be required to make full disclosure to all passengers when a group comprising more than a certain percentage of the total capacity of the ship is going to be onboard. Then those non-group passengers should be offered the option to cancel and rebook something else.

 

Just my opinion ...

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[hammybee]

Hammybee - Note that I wrote these were questions that wouldn't be answered.

 

Yikes- missed that one. I am sorry.

 

I am not comfortable with profiling pax on any cruise line. I do not think there is an average pax. It all depends on the sail. I sail almost all mass marketed cruise lines and fit in well on all of them.

[Jemima]

...

A group of 500 has a large impact on an "R" and "S" Class ship..... even on a Vista. ...

B]

 

I don't think that R & S class ships have the facilities to accommodate most large groups without adversely affecting the cruise experience of other passengers. If the group is going to need anything beyond possibly the Hudson Room it is going to be problem. Maybe one lounge once during the cruise for maybe an hour at a lower usage time.

Vista ships would accommodate large groups needing meeting/party facilities better, but not well.

[gooselace]

sail7seas:

We aren't talking about Four Seasons or Marriott. We are talking about HAL. There are definite differences betweens ships and hotels....one being the inability to go out the door when denied access to a lounge and go find another down the street or around the corner.

 

Obviously the group, of any size, must at some point have made arrangements for its private use or special event. Shouldn't HAL, at the very least, alert passengers at some point prior to the sailing date that certain areas or amenities "may" or "will" not be available to them on certain days or for the entire cruise, whatever is the case?

If passengers knew in advance they would at least be able to make some alternate plans, or rearrange their personal schedule, even if it were too late to cancel the cruise. I was be very upset to arrive at the Crow's Nest or other venue to find it marked "Private" and then have to make my way to another lounge or back to my cabin. Perhaps I could have signed up for another activity or planned my internet use for that time.

Surely some advance notice isn't too much to ask of a cruiseline that still claims to care about individual passengers.

[mach4]

We were on a cruise last year as part of a group that comprised over half of the passengers on the ship - it happened to be an eclipse cruise to Lybia. For us it was a fantastic experience - special programs in the showroom, private receptions on the pool deck, etc. But it was a disaster for the people that ended up on the ship with no knowledge that they were part of this situation.

 

I have also been on a ship where a theme cruise (Big Band) was going on with a large number of participants. It was completely a non-issue other than wishing I could have gone inside to hear the concerts rather than having to listen from a distance.

 

There are a number of groups that I would choose not to cruise with and it would be wonderful if there were a clearing house for group cruise information to be able to avoid booking on a ship with such a group. Or conversely, finding an interesting group to cruise with.

 

Is it possible to have a forum devoted to this? I think it would be a wonderful service. Or if not, maybe someone might like to put up a website for this kind of information.

[Old As Dirt Mom]

.....

There are a number of groups that I would choose not to cruise with and it would be wonderful if there were a clearing house for group cruise information to be able to avoid booking on a ship with such a group. Or conversely, finding an interesting group to cruise with.

 

Is it possible to have a forum devoted to this? I think it would be a wonderful service. Or if not, maybe someone might like to put up a website for this kind of information.

 

Mach4:

 

Cruise Critic member Trubey did this for a while, but it was very time consuming, and she eventually stopped doing it. What I do is google the ship I'm on and the date, including month, day and year, and see what appears. I found out about the two large groups on my own upcoming cruise this way.

 

As an adjunct to my reply to you, addressed not specifically to you but to the board in general, I really think this group paranoia can be a little excessive. Many posters on these boards are cruising as part of a group. On my own upcoming Noordam cruise in June, there will be two large groups on board. Several of the very nice folks on our roll call are affiliated with one of these groups. Most group activities take place in the lounge showrooms or conference rooms and the other pax don't even notice them. I'm part of a small travel group myself, less than 40 people. Our group will have a private cocktail party hosted by our group escort. Will we end up inconveniencing other pax because of where our cocktail party may take place? I don't know, and I don't have any control over this.

So, if anyone wishes to avoid me and my group, or any other groups on the June 17 Noordam to Alaska, you have been forewarned. :eek:

Karin

[Spender Nui]

I have my own opinions and stories but won't get involved.

 

Just enjoying the disagreement from the cheerleaders.

[Old As Dirt Mom]

I have my own opinions and stories but won't get involved.

 

Just enjoying the disagreement from the cheerleaders.

 

You are as Jupiter peering down from Olympus, loftily above the fray of mere mortal man........:p

[hammybee]

sail7seas:

[Surely some advance notice isn't too much to ask of a cruiseline that still claims to care about individual passengers.

 

Advance notice is a reasonable expectation of any pax. How easy it would be to post in in the daily ship paper.

[hammybee]

Mach4:

 

As an adjunct to my reply to you, addressed not specifically to you but to the board in general, I really think this group paranoia can be a little excessive. Many posters on these boards are cruising as part of a group. On my own upcoming Noordam cruise in June, there will be two large groups on board. Several of the very nice folks on our roll call are affiliated with one of these groups. Most group activities take place in the lounge showrooms or conference rooms and the other pax don't even notice them. I'm part of a small travel group myself, less than 40 people. Our group will have a private cocktail party hosted by our group escort. Will we end up inconveniencing other pax because of where our cocktail party may take place? I don't know, and I don't have any control over this.

So, if anyone wishes to avoid me and my group, or any other groups on the June 17 Noordam to Alaska, you have been forewarned. :eek:

Karin

 

You said this so well and reminded us that a group is nothing more than individual pax linked by a common interest or group leader.

[sail7seas]

 

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sail7seas:

Quote:

[surely some advance notice isn't too much to ask of a cruiseline that still claims to care about individual passengers.

 

Advance notice is a reasonable expectation of any pax. How easy it would be to post in in the daily ship paper.

 

Hammy....

 

Kindly print your post in such a way that it does not appear to be quoting me.

Your 'quote' is of something Gooselace (or someone else) wrote.......not me.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I do not feel as though notice in the Daily Program that guests on the ship not a part of the large group will be unable to use CrowsNest the entire cruise to be of any worth at all.

 

It is too little, too late. There is nothing a guest can do at that point.

If notification is given, it has to be meaningful......that means before one arrives at the ship or boards it.

 

IMO .....

 

It has happened to DH and me that we boarded a ship and after dinner proceeded to Crows Nest and were met with a person who told us Crows Nest was reserved for a private party and we weren't invited. We were told to leave immediately. We didn't find out until the next night when it happened again, that we would be permitted into Crows Nest at night only one or two evenings out of ten.

 

Been there, done it and resented it the entire cruise!

 

 

 

[twinkletoes4445]

YEP-should be disclosed. PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD

 

I had a cruise ruined by a group that "TOOK OVER" the ship.

They were a group of approx 600 people. (won't get specific here

about the group) They were granted a dining room, a show lounge, and the entire aft pool and bar area.

 

My wife was very uncomfortable with the whole situation.

Half the ship seemed to be off-limits to the rest of the passengers.

 

I certainly feel that had we known beforehand we would have altered our plans.

 

Rich

 

An experience like this would put an end to our cruising.

 

I think we should know this upfront. If any areas of the ship are going to be "closed" for special groups, public areas, then I want to know.

 

These companies are going to push the envelope as long as they can. They will stop when they see they are losing a specific area of revenue...the individual cruiser. It does seem that HAL is leaning toward catering the group and chater end of things. I am sure there are people who do not care about areas being closed, but I do. And to show my unhappiness about this...I can just take my money elsewhere.

 

But I am sure all this is covered in their fine-print in the contracts. The contract is completely to their advantage. Like I said...they have it worded so they can do pretty much what they want to do.

[hammybee]

 

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Hammy....

 

Kindly print your post in such a way that it does not appear to be quoting me.

Your 'quote' is of something Gooselace (or someone else) wrote.......not me.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I do not feel as though notice in the Daily Program that guests on the ship not a part of the large group will be unable to use CrowsNest the entire cruise to be of any worth at all.

 

It is too little, too late. There is nothing a guest can do at that point.

If notification is given, it has to be meaningful......that means before one arrives at the ship or boards it.

 

IMO .....

 

It has happened to DH and me that we boarded a ship and after dinner proceeded to Crows Nest and were met with a person who told us Crows Nest was reserved for a private party and we weren't invited. We were told to leave immediately. We didn't find out until the next night when it happened again, that we would be permitted into Crows Nest at night only one or two evenings out of ten.

 

Been there, done it and resented it the entire cruise!

 

Sails, appologies for the sloppy quote.

I have no doubt that you made your resentment known while onboard, on your comment card and possibly afterwards given you have a few more personal contacts than the average pax. And I suspect there were other pax onboard who felt just like you and did the same. And it persists.

 

Securing lucrative group business trumps the individual pax. It is what it is.

I am not defending it but I do understand it and will deal with it, as you did, when it's my turn on the rotary. The alternative, assuming one wants to continue to cruise, is to go to another cruise line who is competing with HAL for the same group business or when/if possible, choose longer sails, outside the scope of most special interest groups.