Should HAL disclose when it is partially chartering a ship

[Sea King]

Recently, there was a post about Seattle (notice the home office has now become a city) cancelling a cruise because it had chartered the entire ship for a particular cruise

 

however, there are occasions (and unfortunately more than anyone might like to or would admit) when a large group (500 or more) is aboard and literally takes over the dining room, certain lounges, the aft pool, crow's nest and the like and no one from Seattle (the city again) discloses anything in advance although they know exactly what is taking place

 

is that right?

 

should HAL tell those booking a particular itinerary that a "large group" (at least 50% or more of ship's capacity) will be aboard

 

what do you think?

[serendipity1499]

If specifically asked by a savy cruiser or TA, I believe they should, but it would be dumb of them to offer the info. unless asked!

[Sea King]

If specifically asked by a savy cruiser or TA, I believe they should, but it would be dumb of them to offer the info. unless asked!

 

is it dumb or is it being less than honest and open?

 

quite frankly, that's the point ..

 

isn't it time the home office "comes clean" so we know whether to book or pass a particular cruise rather than finding out the "surprise" after boarding

[Atomica]

is it dumb or is it being less than honest and open?

 

quite frankly, that's the point ..

 

isn't it time the home office "comes clean" so we know whether to book or pass a particular cruise rather than finding out the "surprise" after boarding

 

I think Serendipity's answer is quite accurate: if asked, HAL should be willing to provide said details.

 

However, publicly announcing that some group, however large, will be onboard a particular sailing would be a financial disaster for HAL, as the knee-jerk reaction by some would be to not book that sailing at all. Like passengers, I assume that there are groups that decide to book, then pull out at a later date, or ones that join the cruise long after it's been opened to the purchasing public.

 

Can you imagine the logistical nightmare that lurkes behind that? Voyage X is chartered...now it's not...wait, now it is... you'd have people changing their bookings left and right as they try to stay away from the chartered ship.

 

Is telling pax there's a group on their cruise the right thing to do? Maybe. But from a business point, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.

[peaches from georgia]

I think expecting a cruiseline to 'volunteer' the info unasked is too much to expect. BUT...if asked that specific question they should answer honestly. Otherwise they are lying and selling a cruise under false pretenses.

[Jemima]

I would have said yes a couple of years ago. Since then we've sailed twice with a group of several hundred. Our group had little negative effect on most other passengers. That was due to the composition of our group, the facilities of the ships (1 Carnival & 1 Princess), pre-planning done by the company that organized the group and their TA, and the onboard staff person(s) who coordinated this. A different much smaller group could actually have more negative effect. They might use favorite lounges at popular times, schedule loud or otherwise annoying activites, etc. There are also groups that don't seem to schedule anything; they are just a large number people booked together as a group.

More important questions you are not going to have answered:

What facilities are used? How often when?

When is the group eating?

What activites are planned? Lectures? Loud music? Loud games?

Composition of the group? How will they fit in with other passengers?

Are times and locations pre-planned and will the ship have a coordinator that will see both that the group has those times/locations, that they end activities promptly, and that if the time/place isn't used by the group it is immediately open to all?

[BruceMuzz]

Yes they should divulge the information.

 

BUT - many groups specify in their legal contracts with cruise lines that information about the group is not to be made public. They worry (legitimately or not) about security and confidentiality.

 

Then there is the Sarbanes-Oxley law that - although very confusing - appears to block companies from releasing all sorts of information about things like groups doing business with them. Penalties for violators are quite steep.

 

So, should the cruise line violate the legal contract with a group, and possibly violate US Law in order to better inform the other passengers?

[bookworm0911]

Yes they should divulge the information.

 

BUT - many groups specify in their legal contracts with cruise lines that information about the group is not to be made public. They worry (legitimately or not) about security and confidentiality.

__________

I don't think the name or type of group has to be given, but an honest answer to "Is there a group of over 500 pax going to be on that cruise" could be breaking a contract or law. A "yes" or "no" to that would be most helpful. I think most of us here really only want to know about large groups that without a doubt will impact on our cruise.

[sail7seas]

YES.........

 

I don't expect them to volunteer the information but I absolutely expect them to be truthful if asked directly......"Is there a group of over 150 people booked for this sailing"? They don't have to tell the name of the group but they can say, we have a group of 600 people who enjoy listening to jazz music. Or we have a large church group. That does not say which church, which denomination.......

 

 

I think it dishonest to bold face lie when asked. Don't lie to us. It so dramatically effects our enjoyment on a cruise to be 'stuck' with a group of 70% of the number of pax and not be a part of that group that it is unacceptable to do that to unknowing GUESTS. They will feel like a SKUNK at a lawn party if they are on a ship with such a group. I know. We've been there and done that and it was not a pleasant experience.

[sail7seas]

REALLY want to add........

 

The Officers and Crew aboard the ship take all the heat when the unknowing guest starts to realize the predicament in which they find themselves. They have spent their vacation dollars with the full expectation they would have use of the WHOLE ship and all its facilities. When they start to realize the things they can't do (but a huge group of others are enjoying the aft pool they can't go to), and they can't go to CrowsNest but they hear all the music and laughter and fun in there the group is enjoying, who do they 'attack'?

 

The only ones they can. The only HAL employees present. The CREW and Officers!!

 

Headquarters books it; does this to unknowing guests and are insulated behind corporate walls on land thousands of miles away.

 

The Hotel Manager and Captain and everyone under them have to try their darnest to accomplish the impossible..... to try to provide these 'left out guests' with a good vacation. Depending upon exactly how large the group, it sometimes is not possible. They can't do it.

 

Maybe they become hardened to the fact it keeps happening and.....here it is again but I am more apt to think that for pleasant people who address the subject with them in a calm manner, they truly regret not being able to provide them with what they know they have a right to expect...... full use of the beautiful ship.

 

 

[sail7seas]

I would have said yes a couple of years ago. Since then we've sailed twice with a group of several hundred. Our group had little negative effect on most other passengers. That was due to the composition of our group, the facilities of the ships (1 Carnival & 1 Princess), pre-planning done by the company that organized the group and their TA, and the onboard staff person(s) who coordinated this. A different much smaller group could actually have more negative effect. They might use favorite lounges at popular times, schedule loud or otherwise annoying activites, etc. There are also groups that don't seem to schedule anything; they are just a large number people booked together as a group.

More important questions you are not going to have answered:

What facilities are used? How often when?

When is the group eating?

What activites are planned? Lectures? Loud music? Loud games?

Composition of the group? How will they fit in with other passengers?

Are times and locations pre-planned and will the ship have a coordinator that will see both that the group has those times/locations, that they end activities promptly, and that if the time/place isn't used by the group it is immediately open to all?

 

 

A group of 200 has very little impact on the enjoyment of a cruise by guests not a part of the group.

 

A group of 500 has a large impact on an "R" and "S" Class ship..... even on a Vista.

 

A group of 750 on an "S" Class ship denies non-group guests any hope of having anything like the cruise they had every right to expect. They will feel very resentful of all the things they cannot do but were not advised in advance that would be the case.

[bepsf]

First off - there is no such thing as a "Partial Charter".

Charters book an entire ship for a sailing and are responsible for setting prices and making all sales for that particular cruise, and paying the line a fixed pre-established rate to charter the ship. The charter company is on the hook to HAL for making it a profitable venture - if they do not succeed, the charter company loses, not HAL.

Groups merely book a block of space on an open cruise and get certain perks and price breaks depending on the number of bookings - HAL is still on the hook for marketing that cruise and making it profitable, not the Group. Anywhere from 8 persons or more booking together are considered a "Group". Your family booking together for a reunion can be considered a "Group" if you have 8 or more persons booking together.

As far as requesting information - Where do you draw the line - 100? 200? 800? If a group expresses interest and starts booking but does not yet have the number of bookings made to reach the "magic" threshold, should HAL still disclose - even of the group never takes off or ever hits the big number?

40 CC'ers booking together certainly consist of a "Group" - and we do take over certain areas of the ship from time to time, such as the side area of Crow's Nest for our Meet & Greet's. Other Groups may take up more or less space - certainly larger groups can take up more space, but do not always do so.

I understand and empathize with complaints from other threads regarding groups that commandeer entire lounges, dining room seatings, etc. for days on end if not the entire cruise - and absolutely agree that it's wrong for the entire Crow's Nest to be marked "Off Limits" for the duration of any cruise. In My Opinion, this is the issue at hand - not the fact that there are groups, per se.

I myself will be sailing independently with a pair of groups (Mac Geeks & Shakespeare Geeks) aboard my upcoming Volendam cruise and certainly hope that my enjoyment of major shipboard spaces such as Crow's Nest and Ocean Bar are not impacted - but we'll see.

Believe you me, if the Crow's Nest is closed off for day's on end with nobody up there using the space and the HM doesn't make it right, I will be found in the middle of the lobby on my cellphone to Seattle and Miami loudly getting someone's attention...

[hammybee]

It seems to me that there are many elements to the group issue. The most obvious to me include:

 

What accommodations were made by the cruise line to secure the group booking and the potential of those accommodations to intrude on the enjoyment of the cruise by the majority of pax, for the majority of the time. For example, there might be a difference between a group of 500 who do not need significant onboard accommodations, versus a group of say, 75, who might have the muscle to close down the CrowsNest for the entire cruise.

And then there is the matter of the cumulative impact of several accommodations for small-mid sized groups that carries the potential to be more intrusive than one large group. I am thinking it's more about the restrictions than it is size.

 

The presence of any group, regardless of accommodation, is potentially offensive to some pax. Some of the posts about groups tend to reflect the bias of the poster towards the common interest of the group, more so than anything else. And sometimes such posts trend towards over generalizations.

 

The timing of an individual booking versus a group booking might also be an issue. A group may have an option on X cabins and the reality may be quite different, over or under. The group could also decide to cancel their option if they determined there was insufficient interest to make the sailing worthwhile.

I am thinking booking is such a dynamic process that it may be almost impossible to forcast and thus disclose before final payment date, if not beyond.

 

Fortunately, we have the internet and search engines to enable us to guage potential group cruise activity. I remember last year there was a group of alumni from a university that had some posters up in arms, believing that their cruise had the potential to become Spring Break in October. The reality was that the group was smaller than projected, middle-aged with an academic bent- very different than some of the initial perceptions.

 

Given all this, if I were Queen of HAL, I would communicate to all non-group pax, upon boarding, significant and cumluative accommodations that were being made and use OBC to balance the potential inconvenice. It's not going to please all the pax, all the time but nothing will.

[hammybee]

Composition of the group? How will they fit in with other passengers?

 

Jemima, You raise several good questions but the one I am quoting is the tip of the iceberg as it relates to disclosure issues.

 

What does composition mean? And how might a cruise line determine who will or will not fit in with other pax?

[Old As Dirt Mom]

Yes they should divulge the information.

 

BUT - many groups specify in their legal contracts with cruise lines that information about the group is not to be made public. They worry (legitimately or not) about security and confidentiality.

 

Then there is the Sarbanes-Oxley law that - although very confusing - appears to block companies from releasing all sorts of information about things like groups doing business with them. Penalties for violators are quite steep.

 

So, should the cruise line violate the legal contract with a group, and possibly violate US Law in order to better inform the other passengers?

 

Does anyone have an answer to the above question? Thanks.

[sail7seas]

 

 

 

Given all this, if I were Queen of HAL, I would communicate to all non-group pax, upon boarding, significant and cumluative accommodations that were being made and use OBC to balance the potential inconvenice. It's not going to please all the pax, all the time but nothing will.

 

 

Why are you waiting to give this communication to all the non-group pax until they are boarding? Why aren't you telling them in advance of their traveling to the port with no knowledge the unpleasant surprise that awaits them?

 

If, in advance, you are acknowledging the appropriateness of an OBC, then isn't it more appropriate you give the non-group pax this information in advance and allow them to make the choice if to sail then or rebook for another date/ship?

 

Obviously, it is fill the ship at any cost.......

[dakrewser]

The cruise lines will start doing this about the same time that hotels tell you which conventions will be in their spaces on the dates you wish to reserve, and restaurants tell you which group "parties" will be going on at the time you wish to dine...

[dakrewser]

Then there is the Sarbanes-Oxley law that - although very confusing - appears to block companies from releasing all sorts of information about things like groups doing business with them. Penalties for violators are quite steep.

 

Sarbox isn't THAT confusing - and disclosing which groups have booked a cruise isn't prohibited. Listing the individuals who have booked would be.

[hammybee]

Why are you waiting to give this communication to all the non-group pax until they are boarding? Why aren't you telling them in advance of their traveling to the port with no knowledge the unpleasant surprise that awaits them?

 

If, in advance, you are acknowledging the appropriateness of an OBC, then isn't it more appropriate you give the non-group pax this information in advance and allow them to make the choice if to sail then or rebook for another date/ship?

 

Obviously, it is fill the ship at any cost.......

 

Sails, I am making the assumption that I would not necessarily know the potential impact of cumulative groups and onboard accommodations, until shortly before sail date. I am also assuming that the majority of cruise reservations are being or soon will be executed without human intervention. And lastly, what is likely to bother one pax may not bother the next.

[Stock Cop]

YEP-should be disclosed. PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD

 

I had a cruise ruined by a group that "TOOK OVER" the ship.

They were a group of approx 600 people. (won't get specific here

about the group) They were granted a dining room, a show lounge, and the entire aft pool and bar area.

 

My wife was very uncomfortable with the whole situation.

Half the ship seemed to be off-limits to the rest of the passengers.

 

I certainly feel that had we known beforehand we would have altered our plans.

 

Rich

[Jade13]

YES.........

 

I don't expect them to volunteer the information but I absolutely expect them to be truthful if asked directly......"Is there a group of over 150 people booked for this sailing"? They don't have to tell the name of the group but they can say, we have a group of 600 people who enjoy listening to jazz music. Or we have a large church group. That does not say which church, which denomination.......

 

 

I think it dishonest to bold face lie when asked. Don't lie to us. It so dramatically effects our enjoyment on a cruise to be 'stuck' with a group of 70% of the number of pax and not be a part of that group that it is unacceptable to do that to unknowing GUESTS. They will feel like a SKUNK at a lawn party if they are on a ship with such a group. I know. We've been there and done that and it was not a pleasant experience.

 

What was your experiance? We ended up on a cruise where everyone else but one or two other couples plus us were with Tauck Tours. This was on a small cruise ship, so we all ate at the same etc. and it did not effect us. In fact (Ok it was part of our honeymoon) we were placed in the largest cabin on the ship and also ended up at the captains table for dinner. So, no negative experiance in this particular situation.

 

But obviously a 1,200-2,000 passenger ship with pools and lounges being closed off is a totally different situation.

[Jade13]

YEP-should be disclosed. PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD

 

I had a cruise ruined by a group that "TOOK OVER" the ship.

They were a group of approx 600 people. (won't get specific here

about the group) They were granted a dining room, a show lounge, and the entire aft pool and bar area.

 

My wife was very uncomfortable with the whole situation.

Half the ship seemed to be off-limits to the rest of the passengers.

 

I certainly feel that had we known beforehand we would have altered our plans.

 

Rich

 

Should I assume with "aft pool" this was on one of your Hal cruises?

[Stock Cop]

Should I assume with "aft pool" this was on one of your Hal cruises?

 

No, wrong assumption. It was on Star Princess.

 

Rich:cool:

[peaches from georgia]

 

 

.... I would communicate to all non-group pax, upon boarding, significant and cumluative accommodations that were being made and use OBC to balance the potential inconvenice. It's not going to please all the pax, all the time but nothing will.

OBC upon boarding would mean little or nothing to us. We wouldn't want compensation; we want the cruise promised that we had paid for or at least the option of canceling our vacation before we had arrived at the ship.

[sail7seas]

Ditto what Peaches said. I don't want Compensation...... I really hate that word.

 

What I want is the cruise we purchased. We want access to all public areas of the ship we are normally permitted to use and enjoy. There isn't enough OBC they are going to compensate us for denying us access to aft pool on a bright, gorgeous sea day as happened to us when we were not part of the huge group that was aboard with us.

 

We lost most of a sea day at the pool. When they forced us to leave at about 12:30 or 1:00 P.M., it was too late to try and get lounges at Lido Pool. We were VERY unhappy that day.