Discounting

[Merion_Mom]

Ocean Boy, once more I stand up and cheer for you, "Hear, hear!"

 

Thank you for your clear and expressive statements.

 

Carol

[AB1626]

Ocean boy-It isn't anger,it is passion. I do have an odd cross section of clients. Most of them are very nice but some are downright insulting.

 

You pretty much made my point for me. The bottom line is you feel if you got a fair deal than are satisfied and if you are willing to pay it than you go.

 

It is simple math,you see the price the cruise lines are charging you see some discounts and if you feel it's what you want to pay you do it.

 

If there's no discounting it will be relative. The price will be the price and if you want to pay it you will. It would be the same if there wasn't travel agents,the price is the price and you pay it.

 

You are also right that the big agencies started this trend but it got to the point that the consumer pitted agents against agents and the little guy got fed up because they couldn't compete and let the cruise line know about it.

So it's a little on both ends.

 

CSW- I should have said the lowest rate. The logic is that the cruise gives agents a rate,the agents discount it,you shop around 1,000 different places and pick the rate you like. How do you know the 1001 rate wouldn't have been lower. You said yourself you find a rate you are comfortable with,my point exactly.

I can't even imagine what you mean by a TA den,we are the ones that are giving you back money so you can go on the cruise. We aren't hovering around you like car dealers!

 

I think you have it wrong my career isn't downsizing,actually it's growing but thanks for your concern.

And I do all my work on the internet. But brick and mortar agents can discount just the same as everyone(that is if they are willing too). Some agents just don't want to.

It seems people think that just because it's an online agency it's not brick and mortar,where do you think they work? A lot of them are brick and mortar and have people that work the internet. Some are just call centers,and some work at home through a brick and mortar.

 

So your statement makes no sense. If you buy on the internet you don't know what their office is.

 

Until travel agents are gone you have two places to buy direct from the cruise line or from travel agents,sorry about that. I appreciate savvy consumers,ones that don't insult me,I have a feeling you aren't one of those!

[taszmom]

So, does this mean, the TA's that only give 85% or less value for C&A coupons are going to start honoring 100% of their value?

Hope I didn't open another can of worms.

 

It's not a can of worms, it's just a misconception. You ALWAYS get your full 100% on your coupon from RC, it's the discount that had to be adjusted. So it seems like you only got 85%.

 

Agents will quote $x price including a discount THEN client says I have a coupon. Coupon gets sent in to RC. RC applies coupon which lowers the cruise fare which then lowers the commission the agent gets. Some agencies can only discount x% of the total commission or perhaps feel they want the same commission they were supposed to get before the coupon, so discount is adjusted. Now with no discounting as a factor, you will "see" the 100% of the coupon being applied.

[CSW]

Laura S. suggest TA's who post on these boards identify their agencies. It would be informative if the TA's posting (their not so hidden agendas) would

do so on this thread.

 

CSW

[Brad1185]

If you book your cruises with the cruise line or a regular ta, sounds like you will not notice a difference. If you book through an online discounter you just got your prices raised $200 - $500 depending on the cruise.

[bUU]

I am a travel agent(and do discount) and I would like to give my input into this conversation.

I'm so glad you did. These insights are so critical to understanding this situation well.

 

Before computers there was no rebating,people came into agencies,booked a cruise and went. They didn't spend their lives checking every agency known to man,pitting agencies against each other,than booking with the one that gave it them for $5.00 less,than going onboard and asking everyone what they paid to make sure they didn't get ripped off.

I have heard stories and have had clients say things that make my stomache turn. I can't believe people could act like this over a few dollars.

To be fair, it isn't just a few dollars. However, what you're pointing out is that the whole market landscape has changed, and what people used to pay for they're now looking for ways to pay less for, thereby stressing the system. The Internet has unbalanced the system in favor of the consumer, at least for a while. Good for the consumer (and therefore bad for the traditional TAs and the cruise lines), sure, but it also means that some balancing is warranted -- that'll give a bit of the advantage the consumer has gained in recent years back.

 

This is the only business I know of that the customers seem to think they should dictate what the seller makes.

Well, that's actually a lot more common than that. Surf most any message board you want and you'll find lots of messages from folks presuming that business transactions should always be utterly unbalanced in favor of the customer. Even when the "customers" are getting stuff for free, like television, there are those who exclaim that on-screen bugs are the downfall of civilization.

 

Some folks will tell you that we are a nation, and perhaps now a world, of folks with unreasonable expecations.

 

Would you go to a furniture dealer or even a car dealer and say I know you make 50% commission and I want you to give me back 25%.

It is a very common practice to research automotive manufacturer invoice price, and insist on paying only a certain (modest) amount above that, regardless of the MSRP. That's actually pretty common, across a number of markets.

 

The reason that this happened is because all you people let it get out of hand and the agents complained. Obviously enough complained that they listened.

And the Internet has caused this kind of upset in a number of markets, and in a number of cases suppliers have had to restructure their offerings and policies to account for these new tools, when used as a weapon against them (which isn't to say that everyone does use these tools in that manner, but enough have, in many cases, to necessitate such responses by industry).

 

Now I'm not saying this isn't a step to direct booking or cutting commissions but the cruise lines,at this time,still value travel agents.

I don't think it will be the cruise lines that save TAs, but rather customers who need the kind of additional service that TAs can provide. However, I believe that the pricing structure will have to change: Everyone will end up paying the same for the cruise. Those that need the extra service will have to come to grips with paying an extra fee, charged by and paid directly to the TA, for special services rendered.

[cruisinfamily]

AB - I just wanted to comment that at one point you attempted to compare the commissions of Real Estate Agents and Cruise Agents...to clarify, I live in Southern CA - and I'll have you know that the 'going' commission rate here is anywhere between 1% (oh yes...this is TRUE.) and about 2.5%. It is more and more difficult to obtain the full 3% from a listing. Why? It's called competition. We as consumers are doing our part to investigate the market - and why on earth would I want to pay so-and-so 3% for the same services that the agent down the block is only charging 1.5%. I know that California is a little different than the rest of the country with regard to real estate, but the fact is: if it's happening here, you can safely bet that it'll begin happening everywhere at some point in the not-so-far-away future.

 

It's the same when it comes to TA's and cruising or vacation planning in general. I do understand where you're coming from - but unfortunately (for you), you're in an industry that is slowly having the life sucked out of it by the internet. It's certainly not going to get better regardless of what RCI chooses to do or not do. I've never personally asked how much commission my TA receives, but you can bet that I *do* pay attention to how much the price is, and what the bottom line to my pocket is going to be. The "how and why" are just semantics.

[Cruzzinbob]

Whats with all you people??

All I know that if I'm getting the same price I will still book with a good TA.

That is one more person on your side when you have a beef with the Cruise Lines. They book a lot of business and can throw their weight around. I have been on my share of cruises and I can't say they have all been without incident. My TA has solved all the problems without me having to go through all those annoying synthetic phone ques untill I finally get somone to listen to me. I have better things to do with my time. Like reading these postings.

If its the same price (which it won't, we will always be able to find a discounter) then I have the piece of mind that someone else is looking after my well being because I'm a repeat customer.

[AB1626]

Rhonda-If this is happening to you in your business than you can understand how it is. But is there message boards that you can go into that say you should be discounting more and basically how do make a living? It is basically slapping us in the face.

 

Maybe you're business will eventually be phased out by Buy Owner type things, and people doing their own sales just to save on the commission. Maybe they'll be sites that pop up that people will put their houses on there like Realtor.com without the Realtor,if there isn't one already.

 

Maybe everyone should be worried abut their businesses being undercut by savvy consumers.

 

So the answer is to stay one step ahead and of it and find a niche to stay afloat. I don't foresee them phasing us out in the near future and if they do it will take time. As I said in a previous post,I am only seeing my buisness expand and that is because of the internet.

If there comes a time that the cruise lines phase us out I already know what I would do. It is those of us that stay one step ahead that will survive in some form or another.

 

Bicker- Thank you for appreciating my post,maybe more TA's should get in on this. I think they are too afraid that they will be bashed(that's why I won't list my agency CSW). I have been reading posts for years and now that his has happened with the cruise lines I needed to speak my mind.

 

The internet has it's pros and cons. It has caused a society,as you said,of unreasonable expectations. It has caused people not put pride in their jobs. I still have pride in my job and have many happy clients that come back to me and appreciate what I do.

[wblynch]

Just for clarity sakes, I have booked all 5 of our cruises through travel agents (so far). I have paid above the best price I could have paid, because I think that these agents deserve their commission.

 

----

 

In the "olden days", people had very limited information available to them about cruises (among thousands of other consumer goods).

 

If I were to wander into a travel agent's office, it was very likely that I would have no idea of what to expect in the manner of a cruise vacation. I wouldn't neccessarily know which lines went to which destinations. I wouldn't know which ships might be interesting to me.

 

I certainly would not know fares and seasonal impact on those fares.

 

I have to agree that in those "olden days" the travel agent did quite a bit of work to educate their customer, learn the customer's needs and make suggestions to help solve the customer's vacation concerns.

 

I'm sure that the customer had to trust the agent's experience and knowledge.

 

THAT travel agent certainly earned full commission and probably more.

 

NOW, in the "modern times", I can go to thousands of information sites on the internet and research everything myself. I can determine my own itinerary, which are the good times to take kids and which are the good times to avoid kids.

 

I can find out that if I take my cruise ONE WEEK later, I might save $500 per person.

 

Because of the internet.

 

So.... now I walk into said Travel Agent's office, (call more likely -- or email her), and I sit down and tell her, "I want to go on THIS ship, on THIS week, and I want THAT cabin, and MAIN/SECOND seating, and here's my credit card and my Crown and Anchor numer".

 

BAM!!! All done!!

 

GET IT ????

 

The CONSUMER is doing all the work.

 

I realize the difference between a full service agency that certainly deserves the full commission, but damn!, you guys gotta realize how easy your job has become.

 

.

[wblynch]

Do you all think the lines would be filling all these ships if not for the Internet???

 

In 1991 the Sovereign of the Seas was the world's largest cruise ship. Now, people consider her a worn-out, obsolete little hulk. Very sad.

 

Because the Internet made the concept of filling 3600 passenger ships possible, week after week.

 

They certainly wouldn't be filling them up if they had to wait for people to wander into some little hole-in-the-wall travel agency.

[ACCagent]

Bam! My job is SO easy! Take to day for example. I have 5 couples that want me to just give them a little info. No work, just as easy booking. They either want to go to the Caribbean in January OR next Fall, OR to Alaska sometime next Summer, OR to Canada/New England next Summer or Fall. Could I please just let them know what the very best price would be for those things?? And please be sure to check all the cruise lines. Honest, that's what she said.

 

Many times I do get ones that have done some homework like you do and make my job easy but more often I get ones like the above. I may spend the better part of a day getting rates and checking availability and then they may very well say something like "Oh, I think we'll just wait and check back in a month or so and see how things are then." Then I'll get to do it all over. It may turn out to be worth my time or they may decide to just book online because it was the same price anyway or $10-20 less.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my work and know this is just part of it but it does bother me when you think we do nothing for the commission. I've been asked more than once if I would rebate my comm. so they will book with me. Now why would I do the work for nothing? A discount is okay but not everything. It's usually the least expensive bookings that want the most rebate so you could easily end up with nothing. I choose not to do that. I will, however, work very hard to get the best price and take care of any other little things that come up.

 

The client certainly has the right not to book with me but I also have the right not to spend my time working for nothing.

[wblynch]

What you relay is understandable. Perhaps when an indecisive customer walks in you can send them to the cruise lines' web sites and recommend that they familiarize themselves with the available options.

 

Even a realtor is not going to waste much time if a buyer walked in and said, "We might buy a house or we might not... We might buy in this or that neighborhood... We might buy a 4 bedroom home or a condo".

 

The realtor would give some suggestions to help the customer educate themselves more with an invitation to return when they had things narrowed down.

 

Now, back to your anecdote. (Funny, how just this very day, such an extreme example happened upon you. Very convenient timing???)

 

Obviously that type of customer is not looking to book their cruise over the internet.

 

What I've read above sounds just like the thousands of other messages that have been posted here for years about Internet -vs- B&M Travel Agents.

 

You all should be glad for the internet. Those annoying people will be keeping themselves too busy scanning web pages to bother you or interfere with your "full service".

 

I have a very strong suspicion that at the very bottom of this new RCCL policy is a big group of traditional B&M Travel Agents that lodged hundreds of complaints with the line that it was becoming impossible to compete with those Internet discounters.

 

Now you will get what you asked for, people wandering in, indecisive and uneducated, expecting you to put in 100 hours of work to help them choose their next cruise vacation.

 

With the wheat you must accept the chaff.

 

Maybe the Travel Agent industry just needs to devise a consulting fee structure rather than trying to hide their service fees in the ticket price as a hidden commission.

 

OH, BUT WAIT!

 

That would never work because then the consumer would know exactly what your fee (commission) is.

 

And we all know how that information must be kept secret.

[bUU]

The CONSUMER is doing all the work.

But what you're saying, here, is that the TA is unnecessary (for you). Why shouldn't the cruise line do business with you directly, instead of sharing revenue with an agent, given that an automated, electronic interface could serve all your needs?

[bUU]

What you relay is understandable. Perhaps when an indecisive customer walks in you can send them to the cruise lines' web sites and recommend that they familiarize themselves with the available options.

This is exactly what the cruise lines need to stop. The TA network needs to be there to provide full-service. That cannot be done as effective without the human element. It is the booking of the cruise, itself, that can be done on web sites, as well if not better than through any other means.

 

With the wheat you must accept the chaff.

I get my wheat cleaned of the chaff. :D

[Ocean Boy]

But what you're saying, here, is that the TA is unnecessary (for you). Why shouldn't the cruise line do business with you directly, instead of sharing revenue with an agent, given that an automated, electronic interface could serve all your needs?

 

The cruise line will do business directly with us. However, they will not share revenue with us as they will with a TA. So, at least up until now, it was not finanially beneficial to deal directly with the cruise line.

 

Maybe what some of these B&M agencies should have done is develope a teared pricing structure. If some one comes in and says this is the ship I want and the date and the cabin go ahead and discount. If they come in with no clear idea of what they want then don't discount. Instead what they did was to insure that those of us who do our research and know exactly what we want get to pay the same as the person who is clueless and needs a lot of agency resource. And I have a problem with that.

[Ocean Boy]

they may decide to just book online because it was the same price anyway or $10-20 less.

 

Let me asure you that my on-line bookings have each saved me hundreds of dollars not $10-20.

[xpcdoojk]

Can we for a moment take a little step back.... from what a TA makes and who is getting screwed by whom for just a moment.

 

Supply and demand and the need for the cruiseline to maximize revenue didn't dissappear with this announcement. Sad but true, these fundamental aspects still exist.

 

For example the number of cabins available is still exactly the same as last week. The number of people willing to take a cruise is still the same and the equilibrium price for any given cabin type is more or less the same. If the cruiseline is artificially increasing the prices as many of you believe, what is going to happen. They will sell more or less cabins at these higher prices? Less is the correct answer so what happens then? They have empty cabins they are not booking cabins as fast, so what happens next. The cruiselines decide that this is so crucial that they don't react and change prices, so they sail with less than full ships and they reduce the amount of revenue their ships generate? Not a damned chance in the world. At some point they will see that their short term solution is costing them money. They will adjust their pricing on their website this will reduce the pricing at each and every TA in existence. Get it. This is all much ado about nothing, to paraphrase shakespear. Will all agents be affected the same, probably not, will RCI capture more business thru their own sales force and reduce the profitability of some TAs, probably, time will tell. However, the customer is getting screwed scenario is like many of these evil corporation screwing the little guy stories, most likely wrong!

 

Now back to the fight, in the last round a thoroughly unhappy TA was slamming their customer as being selfish curs biting the hand of their superiors. I don't want you fans of this to miss a single silly moment.:p ;) :rolleyes:

 

jc

[AB1626]

Wblynch- You are exactly the type of person I spoke about in my posts. Very arrogant and insulting! To answer some of your off the wall comments.

The only point that I agree with is that in the "olden days" there wasn't that much info and people did need to sit with a TA. But the ships were filling up before the internet got popular with bookings. Maybe the internet made it easier to fill. But I remember days before internet when ships were always sold out. How long have you been in the travel business? I agree the ships weren't that big but I still doubt there would be a problem filling them internet or not.

 

I am glad ACCagent chimed on this subject because he/she answered you just as I would have. I know you are a real smart guy and don't need any advice,but believe it or not there are people that do. I have expirenced cruisers that don't want to be bothered,they just want me to book it for them and send them notice when the payments are due and send them the tickets. There are all kinds of people in this world and they are not all like you!

 

What I would like to see happen is you book your cruise online or with the cruise line direct. You are on the ship and you have a problem. You try to reach your factory cruise line agent and they don't answer your email. Or you try to get the ship to help because you have no one to go to because you booked it with the cruise line. And you are stuck. I have helped people with things while they were on the ship that they couldn't do on the ship with just making a phone call. I have had the ship call me with clients concerns. I am always available,but maybe that's just me!

 

It might have seemed like a coincidence to you that ACC got a call like that yesterday but again,how long have you been a travel agent? It happens like that most days. And it even happens with your "savvy travelers" on the internet at times,they aren't busy "scanning web pages" to not ask me questions. The internet is not the end all to everything,in some cases it's a tool. I do everything by email and I am always checking this and that and it either pans out or not. Sometimes they aren't sure where they want to go,or know where they want to go but don't want to sit looking everywhere for a rate. Thye like the interaction of tossing around ideas.

So I do it,and than have to sit and figure out discounts. I put in a full day,if it is so easy I wouldn't have to work full days. Than once it's booked there are plenty of details to keep track of for each booking. Than there are group bookings,there is a lot that goes into that. Even you probably wouldn't want to deal with those details!

So please again don't belittle what we do!

I have a friend that's a real estate agent and she has spent days with people showing houses and than they decide they want to wait. She doesn't pick and choose based on how much research they did,if you did that you'd loose business. It is just a fact of the service buisness.

 

You say we should send the indesicive customer to the internet to become more familar as to what they want to do. Well I find that poor customer service. Someone comes into your office or in my case emails me and gives me a list. I than don't do anything but say"do me a favor go to the internet and figure it out and come back to me when you know exactly what you want"maybe that's why they came to me because they don't want to do that! And if I did this wouldn't it than be what you said,they do all the work and I just book it? The service goes along with the package. Maybe you have gotton into that factory mentality so you forgot what customer is all about!

 

I do try to narrow it down,give them ideas and send them links for them to look at,I use the internet as a new age brochure. But that takes time too. If I asked them to find exactly what they want and come back than it would be easy. I do have people that know exactly what they want but still want me to book it because they like to deal with me.

 

It's also funny how you keep referring to B & M's. The funny thing is I work on the internet only and I feel the same way. It is not B & M's that feel this way it's every agent that doesn't have a factory website.

 

And you are right it was a lot of B & M and internet agents that lodged complaints with the cruise lines about the big discounters and not being able to compete. The funny thing is they listened. And to your dismay,I guess they find us as some value if they listened.

 

And for us it won't be any different we will still get people asking questions.

 

And finally HOW DARE YOU you say we put hidden fees in our ticket prices for services!!! Where do you come up with that? You being such a smart guy must know the cruise line pays us commission,we do not add fees upfront or "hidden" for our service. What we do is give you back a big chunk of our commission for you take that cruise,because if you don't get a deal you'll feel ripped off! So again you have a lot of nerve making that comment. Again,insulting!!

 

One more thing Lynch I discount my cruises so I am not an agent that is against discounting.

 

Bicker-thank you for being the voice or reason. I don't mind people asking me to check things and as long as I make commission from the cruise line. If they stop that than I would have to charge a fee.

 

Oceanboy- if the cruise line stopped giving travel agents commission how do you know they wouldn't keep the profit? How are you so sure they would pass it down to the consumer? And you did come up with an interesting idea. If someone comes in and knows exactly what they want they should get a discount. If they have us work for days than they don't. Very interesting thought!

 

Maybe if we work together we can come up with ideas!

[bUU]

Maybe what some of these B&M agencies should have done is develope a teared pricing structure. If some one comes in and says this is the ship I want and the date and the cabin go ahead and discount. If they come in with no clear idea of what they want then don't discount.

And what pricing structure do you use when the customer comes in with no clear idea of what they want, you help them determine what they want, quote a fare (at, of course, a higher price), and then the customer takes their business elsewhere, to a TA for whom they come in and say that they want the specific ship and cabin that you helped them determine they wanted? (!)

[Ocean Boy]

Oceanboy- if the cruise line stopped giving travel agents commission how do you know they wouldn't keep the profit? How are you so sure they would pass it down to the consumer? And you did come up with an interesting idea. If someone comes in and knows exactly what they want they should get a discount. If they have us work for days than they don't. Very interesting thought!

 

Maybe if we work together we can come up with ideas!

 

You misunderstood me. I simply stated that at the present time they DO keep the commissions and do not pass on any savings if you book directly.

[Ocean Boy]

In short, I do not know the answer to your question. It simply is not the way I do business. I feel people deserve to be compensated for their time so If I had a TA do the research for me and I decided to take the cruise I would feel obligated to book through that TA.

 

I can tell you this, sometimes people will ask me for off the cuff medical advice when they see me somewhere but when it actually comes time to get treated they go elsewhere to another physician. So I guess I have just come to accept that this is the way some people operate.

[bUU]

In short, I do not know the answer to your question.

Rest easy: No one else was able to come up with a satisfactory answer either, which, I suspect, is partially why this policy change was necessary.

[twister566]

Hi I am new to the boards but here is my 2 cents worth, when I buy a car I research the price the dealer is paying for it and then make a fair offer. When I select a realtor I search for the service and negotiate the commision on furniture I find the best price. I work hard for my money and I am a knowledgeable consumer when it comes to cruiseing I search cruise lines and agencies looking for the best price for my vacation all this will do is make the TA search harder to find me the best price on a cruise when I want to go be on RCL, Carnival or NCL

[wblynch]

Obviously I am not a travel agent. I am a consumer.

 

By "hidden fees" I mean to say that the "commission" is hidden in the ticket price. The customer pays the price of the ticket without any knowledge of the commission value, hence it is HIDDEN. DUH !!!! doesn't take a genius.

 

I didn't mean that a T/A doesn't deserve their commission when they do the work. As I said, I have used travel agents for all my bookings so far and sometimes had a discount and sometimes did not.

 

Obviously when the agent did all the work I was pleased to pay full price. But when I do all the reasearch and/or book online why do I not deserve a discount?

 

The cruises I have received a discount on were not the lowest price available and I never asked for or demanded a discount. I simply relayed my request to the agent and if her price was in range with, say, Travelocity, I accepted. I have never said anything insulting to my agents and I appreciate everything they have done for me.

 

Sometimes we have sent gift certificates from $100 to $150 to our agent, after a cruise, thanking her for her efforts.

 

But you travel agents here sound like you deserve to earn your fees without competition. There are diffferent sales models that fit different needs.

 

You all act as if I am stealing bread off your table if I take my business to a discount agency. Maybe you are stealing bread off my table by resorting to your crybaby tactics to prevent anyone from purchasing at discount.