Modern Day Mutiny?

[coiran]

Does anyone know who the captain was?

 

There was a similar situation with the Sea Princess last year on a much simpler cruise, a 14 day circuit of the Caribbean. In all, 4 ports were missed, but what caused the uprising was that there was no obvious bad weather: no real storm, no obvious heavy rain, just somewhat higher than usual seas, and in each of the missed ports other cruise ships were docking. To make matters worse, the captain was the same one who was captain when a Princess ship hit the dock in Canada and also was captain when a Princess ship hit a reef near a Greek Island. Needless to say, his caution was attributed to fear based on his previous accidents, and several hundred passengers -- 300 if I remember correctly -- demanded unsuccessfully meetings with the captain, who for all practical purposes remained incommunicado.

 

I was on the immediately following cruise, and we all held our breaths at each port, but we managed to make them all. Ironically, when I took a cab ride at one of the ports (after a rough tender trip) the taxi driver volunteered without any prompting from us that he had never seen a cruise ship at anchor so far out from the port!

 

Bill

 

Captain Nash is the person of whom you speak - I met him several times on a B2B cruise and he is a very professional captain. I also recieved from him an accurate account of both of the incidents you spoke of. If he is as bad as you and some folks think I'm sure Princess would have got rid of him long ago.

Ron

[coiran]

I find it absolutely amazing to hear passengers who are suddenly experts substituding their judgement for that of a Captain with years of training and thousand of hours managing the operation of a huge cruise ship. Many have never even captained a rowboat, let alone a vessel the size of a Princess cruise ship.

 

The fact that some ship arrived before and docked or afterward has no bearing on what was going on at the time a captain makes a decision to go or not to go. Quotes like "The weather didn't seem that bad to us" show an amazing lack of understanding the operation of a large ship. Tides can and do change in as little as 1/2 hour, makeing the combination of wind and current unsafe at a location that was just fine a short time earlier. Tides and weather are constantly changing and different ships react differently to certain situations. That is the reason that cruise ship captains are paid as well as they are, to make Safe, operationally feasable decisions.

 

As a former airline pilot, I understand the problems. One aircraft may make an approach in bad weather and the next 10, miss the approach. Who is the best captain? The one that made it or the 10 that "missed" Chances are they are all good, the situation just changed because of the elements or the capibilities of the craft.

 

I have sailed with Captain Nash, and he is a fine, competent captain, if he were not, Princess would have fired him long ago. They will not risk a ship or passengers safety for any reason. (No, I am not related or do I know him personally, I just respect the position he holds, and hate to see a good person be smeared by worthless gossip!)

 

Enough of this rant, but just remember, just because it "Looks" safe to the untrained eye, it may not be to the professional. If you do not trust the abilities of the captain, you are a damn fool to board the boat in the first place.

 

Fair winds

Dave

 

Well put - of course, us Michiganders are surrounded by water which gives us an edge up on landlocked folks.

Ron

[icemaiden]

i for one agree with those folks who say leave the decisions up to the captain , he is the one with the knowledge of how the ship handles in all sort of seas, he is trained for all sorts of weathers and is the decision maker, when it comes to any dangers at sea and the captain doesnt want to risk any damage to the ship i am with him all the way , because i have a fear of the water and i do love being onboard a cruiseship but my family love it , so i am going on another crusie in april,

to look at it my way if my electricity goes in my house i get a qualified tradesman in to access the situation , i dont give it a go myself and hope for the best especially with dealing with electricity, i am not qualified, i could electrify myself, so the same goes for a captain who knows how his ship handles,

and another thing it may look safe to some people because the waves werent that bad, but how do they know how deep the water is as the tide is changing so much with the waves, if he was to dock and it was a bit unsafe, there could be damage done to under the ship that may not show up till the ship was out at sea and taking the strength of its waves on its hull

[billie5]

Ron,

How could you possibly know what I think about Captain Nash? I have read and re-read my post, and I do not see a single hint of my own opinion about the skipped ports and the unlucky captain. I reported on a near mutiny -- never mentioned my opinion.

 

Of course you might be a clairvoyant. Then I would like to talk to you before my next cruise.

 

Bill

[Pam in CA]

The cruise lines don't see it as quoted above. Princess' "holy land" cruises, which included stops in Egypt and Israeli ports, were priced almost double the amount of similar length Med cruises. Why? Because folks were willing to pay higher prices for some ports and Princess was willing to take as much as the market would bear. It is, to me, the height of hypocrisy to charge more for cruises that include certain ports and say too bad when/if all such ports are missed (for whatever reason). Yeah, I know you pay your money and take your chances. To me, however, it seems fair that some type of compensation should be paid to the consumer when the product promised is no where close to the ultimate product delivered. Missing 4 out of 9 exotic ports, I believe, falls into that category. % off a future cruise might give folks the opportunity to see the ports missed.

Having recently returned from the Royal's Holy Land cruise, I disagree with you entirely. I don't think I paid more because it was a Holy Land cruise but because it was on a small ship and I was a single in my cabin. There was discussion for over a year whether we'd really go to Israel and some people canceled based on that possibility. While on the Princess overland tour, we stayed at a hotel in Jerusalem that was filthy, dirty, and disgusting. Several people on our bus, including your's truly, got violently sick with a gastrointestinal "something" 30 hours after leaving the hotel. I'm convinced I was exposed to something at the hotel. I got sick while in Cairo (I won't go into details but it was awful) and facing a 3.5-hour bus ride back to the ship (I don't know how I did it) and obviously missed the next day in Alexandria as well as three days later in Croatia because I still wasn't feeling well. While I place the blame on Princess, it wouldn't occur to me to demand an onboard credit or a free cruise even though I essentially missed almost half the cruise and spent it in bed. I took pictures of the hotel and plan to write Princess not to demand payment but to make sure Princess never uses this hotel again.

 

I was on the "old" Royal Princess several years ago and Israel was canceled and two days in Istanbul substituted. To me, that was fine. If people are that set on going to a port, then they should take a land tour.

[land lover]

SMiles.....Did we really pay that much more for our Holy Land cruise? I thought it was comparable to the other Meds on Royal.

Did you receive your carpet yet?

 

How unfortunate Pam about your illness, we were on the cruise before yours, several on our ship got ill but it seemed they picked up something in Egypt so people missed out on Israel. I'm glad you took pictures to make your case..how disappointing.

 

I am still pinching myself that we made all our ports, after making my reservation 18 months out......I just never thought everything would fall into place.The Holy Land was a wonderful itinerary.

 

But back to the original subject....and my opinion, a cruise vacation is never for sure..the odds are great that you'll go, but face it there is only one ship, one staff and you are at the mercy of the sea...so different from a land base vacation. I am pleased that Princess did give some compensation,,,,did they do more because of the passengers actions we will never know.

[coiran]

Ron,

How could you possibly know what I think about Captain Nash? I have read and re-read my post, and I do not see a single hint of my own opinion about the skipped ports and the unlucky captain. I reported on a near mutiny -- never mentioned my opinion.

 

Of course you might be a clairvoyant. Then I would like to talk to you before my next cruise.

 

Bill

 

 

Reread your second paragraph - although it does not mention Captain Nash everone know he was the Captain aboard the Diamonf incident in Canada - and BTW the Port Pilot was at the controls and the wing gusted so fast it was toomlate to make any corretions.

 

Ron

[billie5]

Yes, Ron, and if I had remembered his name I would have given it. I wasn't hiding it; I just didn't remember. However, that does not change the fact that I was giving a factual report of what happened aboard the Sea Princess. There were many threads about the Canadian crash, all of which pointed out that the pilot was in command (and many pointing out that the captain is still responsible, supposedly everywhere but in the Panama Canal -- but that is another issue).

 

Look. These were the facts. I believe I got them right. And Captain Nash was the captain. I still do not know what allows you to conclude I think he is so bad. You just don't know. Giving an historical account does not indicate the reporter's beliefs. Nor should I have to give my opinion to stop posters from claiming they know it.

 

Bill

[bdjam]

Giving an historical account does not indicate the reporter's beliefs. Nor should I have to give my opinion to stop posters from claiming they know it.

But why wouldn't you? That takes the guess work out of it for the rest of us...

[westwind6371]

Billie5;

 

I have reread your post several times, and my impression is that it is a negative post on his abilities and judgement. Perhaps that is not what you meant, but it sure reads that way.

 

" In all, 4 ports were missed, but what caused the uprising was that there was no obvious bad weather: no real storm, no obvious heavy rain, just somewhat higher than usual seas, and in each of the missed ports other cruise ships were docking. To make matters worse, the captain was the same one who was captain when a Princess ship hit the dock in Canada and also was captain when a Princess ship hit a reef near a Greek Island. Needless to say, his caution was attributed to fear based on his previous accidents,"

 

You have made the determination that you are a better judge of conditions than the Captain, and that reads negative to me.

 

You are asking others not to read your mind, yet you are able to determine that "his caution was attributed to fear based on his previous accidents," How do you know this?

 

fair winds

Dave

[billie5]

Well, I guess I have no choice. Remember, though, that I was on the cruise immediately following the one with the uprising.

 

I would be certainly sad to miss ports, but I would (admittedly begrudgingly) accept the decisions made by the captain. I would not join any group that challenged the captain, nor even showed discourtesy. I would, however, hope that he would elaborate his reasons for the missed ports. Unfortunately, some captains can be rather sketchy on explanations.

 

Dave, I wrote that there were no OBVIOUS conditions apparent to the passengers for the cancellations. I wrote that because that seemed to be the real cause behind the uprising. I don't understand why that implies I am a judge of anything. You need to understand that this 14 day cruise was rather unusual in that passengers were picked up at two different ports, Ft. Lauderdale and Barbados, all making 14 day passages, so in mid-cruise there was always a large number of new passengers. Consequently, more than half of the passengers on my cruise had experienced part of the "uprising cruise" and those half had spent part of their cruise with the passengers who experienced the whole 4-port missing cruise. That is why so many of the passengers we ate with (we always ask for a sharing table) could recount the events of the infamous cruise.

 

Again, all the comments I reported in my posting were reports of what happened and what the passengers thought, not what I would have participated in or approved of. I am surprised some people assume that because I reported what the passengers thought and said, that I would have thought the same thing. A reporter should be able to report events which occur, including what passengers might have thought about the captain, an ironic comment from a taxi driver, etc., without the assumption that he agrees with it. In fact, a good reporter would try to keep his own views out of the report, which is what I was hoping to do.

 

Perhaps it is a mistake to assume people will look only at what you write and not make additional assumptions. Maybe one of the dangers of being a mathematician -- which happens to be my trade -- that we are accustomed to work only within hypotheses of a theorem, taken very exactly. I have heard us described as a rather autistic group from time to time!

 

Bill

[westwind6371]

Hi Bill;

 

I will take you at your word, that you meant no negative attributes in your post. I was on the Sea 2 years ago on that same itinerary, so I understand the passenger mix.

 

Perhaps if you had stated that "Some Passengers reported no apparant conditions that would cause cancellations" it would have changed the feeling. As you wrote it, it sounded like it was your judgement that conditions did not warrant cancellation. Also, you stated as fact, that it was "FEAR" that caused the captain to take the actions he did. No one but the captain can know that.

 

As far as how far out a ship drops anchor, that is usually determined by the port authority. Ships are usually assigned anchoring areas and sometimes they can be very small areas.

 

fair winds

Dave

[coiran]

Yes, Ron, and if I had remembered his name I would have given it. I wasn't hiding it; I just didn't remember. However, that does not change the fact that I was giving a factual report of what happened aboard the Sea Princess. There were many threads about the Canadian crash, all of which pointed out that the pilot was in command (and many pointing out that the captain is still responsible, supposedly everywhere but in the Panama Canal -- but that is another issue).

 

Look. These were the facts. I believe I got them right. And Captain Nash was the captain. I still do not know what allows you to conclude I think he is so bad. You just don't know. Giving an historical account does not indicate the reporter's beliefs. Nor should I have to give my opinion to stop posters from claiming they know it.

 

Bill

 

What was Capt Nash supposed to do - throw up his hands and say"STOP WIND" - You are a Math Prof and should know the basic laws of Physics - Man cannot stop these kind of actions - only one guy can do that and that's the BIG GUY that controls it all.

 

Ron

[billie5]

Come on, guys. You keep making me go back and read my own post, and each time I do I have to think about how I might better have written it.

 

I appreciate your taking me at my word, Dave. Here is what I wrote about fear, the exact quote: "Needless to say, his caution was attributed to fear based on his previous accidents." It seems to me, since I was not actually on that cruise, that the only reasonable interpretation is that the PASSENGERS attributed it to fear -- as passengers are wont to do. I guess I have trouble seeing how this turns into my attributing the captain's actions to fear. However, in the future perhaps I should avoid passive voice, to avoid any such confusion.

 

Ron, I could not agree with you more. My background actually is mathematical physics, so at least I am supposed to know the laws of physics. Not that I get them right all the time -- had a terrible time putting together the departmental Christmas tree. But, again, I did not join the mutiny (I was not on the ship) and, as I was forced to admit, I would not have joined it, since I agree with you about the laws of physics. But I guess I still do not see how reporting the fact and the causes of the uprising (ill advised as it might have been) leads people to assume I agree with it.

 

I have learned my lesson. I am never going to write a report on Attila the Hun.

 

Bill

[westwind6371]

Hi Bill;

 

Any one who can make me smile, can't be all bad;-))) Who knows, from a mathmatical point of view, ole Attila may have had some good points!

 

Have a good night, Bill

 

Fair winds

Dave

[billie5]

Well, the founding of Venice is commonly attributed to the invasion of Italy by the Huns. If that beautiful city really owes its origin to them, way to go, Attila !

Bill

[NSWP]

Interesting to read that article about Sapphire Princess -mutiny.' The fact that pax got $250 OBC and discount on next cruise. We were on the last Regal Princess Cruise, LA to Sydney, 31 Aug to 2 Oct. We missed one port, Raratonga in Cook Islands, tenders not launched due to choppy seas. Also cruise into Milford Sound cancelled due to rough seas, but the real reason was I think..the ship was behind schedule getting to Sydney for refit to Pacific Dawn. Wonder what chance compensation as the Sapphire pax got? Have Princess set a precedent?

Cheers from downunder..:cool:

[billet]

[quote name='caribill']I was on a Princess cruise last year which had to miss a port. The Cruise Staff quickly issued a new schedule for the day which included all the types of activities.

The cruise staff was very active with the passengers that day, even though some on the staff (as well as some of the shops' personnel) had partied almost all night because they "knew" they would have no assignments that day.[/quote]

oh dear, been there done that too!