HAL's response to my letter re: AYW dining problems

[hammybee]

I booked my upcoming Zuiderdam cruise over a year ago and couldn't get fixed dining.

 

I'm not the only one. Several posters have stated they booked months and months, if not years in advance, and still can't get confirmed dinner times.

 

It stinks, I tell you.

 

HAL holds back space to accommodate potential group sales, clients of top producing agencies, Deluxe Suite passengers and VIPs.

 

Chances are if you booked 8 or more cabins - well maybe a lot more, you would get what you want. Those who buy or pay more, get more.

 

I am thinking at the moment that it may make some sense to create or seek out a group booking for increased certainty. Most of the groups are nothing more than individual bookings through a common agency that assigns an escort to the cruise. They use their buying power to negotiate perks. One of the most consistent group booking agencies has a lot of A's in their name. Hope this helps you get what you want.

[Susie51]

Princess allows 3 nights to be booked at a time. With your choice of times and restaurants. This worked well for DH and me, because we liked later times on port days.

 

We had a table and time on NCL in Jan. This was nice for us. We were in the Owners suite and my uncle was in a wheelchair so this might be why we were able to have the same table and time on NCL.

[pipedreams62]

 

Most excellent point, Pipedreams.

 

Fixed seating is a highly efficient method of mass feeding. Everyone does what is expected of them, when it's expected.

 

Passengers have been whining about early being too early and late being too late, forever. Passenger preference has indeed changed over the years. Passengers increasingly shun the large tables of strangers in favor of more intimite dining because too many of them have been stuck with tablemates from hell-o and/or they prefer dinner to be a social downtime. Mass feeding does not work well unless the masses embrace large tables and regimented dining times.

 

It used to be that only some of the higher end cruise lines offered open seating. NCL came along and articulated the problem/ solution before and better than anyone else within the mass market. It made a lot of people stop and think about why they were subjecting themselves to regimentation. "Freestyle dining" is effective marketing. The NCL brand evolved around the concept of "freestyle" and they became the cruise line to beat.

 

Princess was the first to respond and they created their version of Open Seating. HAL followed and it is probably the single greatest marketing attempt to shake the perception that it is a floating retirement home. RCL is experimenting with the concept on some of their ships. I don't think it possible to stop this train.

 

that AYWD is simply a new name. It used to be called 2 other things

 

1. Room service

2. Lido Buffet

[Sundagger]

So if I understand you correctly, one must get something IN WRITING from Ship Services AT THE TIME OF BOOKING to guarantee your choice of dining arrangement. Is that correct? Who obtains that ... the passenger or his/her TA?

 

I guess the word "confirmed" on the booking confirmation/invoice doesn't count.

 

My understanding is that it is possible to get a commitment in writing and (from my discussions on board) that this is the way to assure yourself of getting your choice of dining if available. Who requests the written commitment would depend on whether you booked with HAL or through an agent.

 

I've been getting an invoice from the agency I use, so I haven't seen what is on the HAL invoice. The agency invoice did say Main Upper dining, but I don't know if that was a request to HAL or based on a response from HAL.

[mybagsarepacked]

HAL holds back space to accommodate potential group sales, clients of top producing agencies, Deluxe Suite passengers and VIPs.

 

Chances are if you booked 8 or more cabins - well maybe a lot more, you would get what you want. Those who buy or pay more, get more.

 

I am thinking at the moment that it may make some sense to create or seek out a group booking for increased certainty. Most of the groups are nothing more than individual bookings through a common agency that assigns an escort to the cruise. They use their buying power to negotiate perks. One of the most consistent group booking agencies has a lot of A's in their name. Hope this helps you get what you want.

 

It absolutely helps. We did this when we booked our september cruise upcoming. We requested a table of 8 for upper fixed dining and told them we'd get the booking numbers of the others in our party at a later date.

 

Miracle of miracles, we got a confirmed table of 8. Imagine that...? Now if I had only but known that earlier :) :)

[Sundagger]

The phrase: "Mr. Kruse has reviewed your letter in detail, and has asked me to respond on his behalf" is standard form-letter boilerplate. What I suspect is that a summary of the complaint letters is provided -- a phrase or a sentence for each -- and Mr. Kruse reviews them that way. I would imagine he periodically selects a few of these summaries to read the actual letter that it comes from. Occasionally he writes a response himself, or deals with the situation directly. But, the vast majority of the letters are handled as yours was. In truth, when I write Mr. Kruse I expect the letter to be handled by a staff flunky and the response I receive to be mostly form-letter; but, most importantly, I expect that that a copy of my letter has been forwarded on to the specific people who are on-site and can deal with both the praise for various staff members AND the problems I've detailed. If that is ALL that happens, I'm happy.

 

Thanks for sharing your results. I'm sure that, for the most part, those who are in love with Open Seating and the AYWD system in general (and appear to have rose-colored glasses on regarding the problems involved with its implementation) have already discounted your report and have pointed out to you that you don't really have anything to whine about because, for 5 days of your cruise, you got what you wanted.

 

No, I didn't expect Kruse to read the letter, so I just addressed it to his office. In my 5 HAL cruises, I've only had a problem that rose to the level of my writing to HAL twice. The first time was due to the cavalier attitude a couple of ships had toward providing ADA equipment for the hearing impaired. The shore people were great, on the ship it was a different story. The first time I really received what the Accomodations people said would be available was on this Oosterdam cruise. The letter I received back from the CEO's office did prove that an actual investigation of the problem had been performed.

 

This time, the problem was less that I had been assigned to AYW dining, but the dining room's management refusal to 1) transfer me to traditional dining, 2) allow me to make a week-long reservation in the open seating dining section, 3) to even allow me to make a reservation for the next night. That in combination with their not being where they said they would be to take requests and not answering their phone when I called was why I wrote this letter. I also did want to compliment the Guest Relations Manager for her intercession that finally did get me almost what I had originally asked for.

[O2B@C]

Just FYI, in mid-December I booked a one-way Veendam cruise for mid-August (so about 8 months in advance). We were originally waitlisted for Main Upper traditional dining - my TA said we were about #33 on the list. Just yesterday my TA informed me our Main Upper seating has now been confirmed (though I don't have it in writing yet, other than her email:D ). We are in an outside cabin and are not high-level Mariners (only one prior HAL cruise, 7 days), so I'm sure we're not getting any special preference. OTOH, we requested late (Main) seating, and my understanding is that it's the early seating that is most in demand for Alaska sailings, so that might have worked in our favor.

 

Which is all by way of saying - don't despair if you book way in advance and are placed on the waitlist. HAL appears to be trying to keep their options open in the event of large groups, etc., but at least for some cruises it does appear that they will not hold you on a waitlist forever, and with any luck you will know your dining slot by the time you have to make full payment.

 

Now we'll just have to see if they honor their promise about our seating assignment. :rolleyes: If they don't, I'll certainly let everyone know!!:mad:

[Sundagger]

I recall reading several posts recently that cruisers who had confirmed Traditional on their documentation were changed against their wishes to Open Dining upon their embarcation.

 

I would call that "commiting in writing to a certain dining arrangement during the booking process and that it would be honored on the ship..." wouldn't you:confused: ?

 

So the letter means nothing except as to this particular situation because the OP took the time & trouble to document his problem???:confused:

 

I've seen numerous posts about the Volendam, for example, forcing people into AYW when their documents gave a fixed dining time. What has happened in some situations was that the people booked over a year in advance, when AYW didn't exist. When HAL scheduled the ships to transition to AYW, 60% of those people with "confirmed" dining times had to be arbitrarily placed in open seating.

 

It doesn't really seem practical in that situation to contact every booked passenger to find out if they would like AYW dining. I presume the suite passengers were kept in traditional dining with the option to switch on embarkation. The rest of the re-assignments were probably arbitrary.

 

I wouldn't have written this letter if the dining room management hadn't absolutely refused to make any sort of simple accomodation to my request. Their reservation software was able to accept what I requested, it was the staff who refused to do it.

[twinkletoes4445]

I agree wholeheartedly. Calling it As You Wish is assinine. I am trying to keep an open mind, but having to call every day for a reservation is one bone of contention with me as well.

 

I have no intentions of having to make reservations each day for dinner. It is asinine.

 

What would they do if every person who had this AYWD called room service three nights in a row and had dinner served in their cabins at whatever time they chose?

 

They'd have a problem.

 

Calling room service is also a form of "As you Wish Dining". So they need to get their nomenclature correct.

 

It is and they do.

 

It will be interesting to see how this works out for them. They days of traditional cruising seem to be going by the wayside. I suspect we'll see more and more of this, eventually, I can see formal nights being a thing of the past. Change happens...and some of the things I'll roll with, some I won't. But at least there are other vacation options.

 

We love to cruise, but there are just too many ships out there these days, at least in the Caribbean. Ports are crowded, many too crowded, and many of these islands are cutting back on how many ships they allow on any given day (and maybe this is why we're seeing more charters-more revenue for the ships if they have to decrease their ports).

 

We mainly cruise for the ship, but now that's being compromised. The introduction of AYWD to HAL (it's more like Friday's call ahead), which is of no interest to us.

 

You have HAL now selling off their "perks" that were once reserved for the PS and Deluxe Suites for those that are in the lower suites.

 

Charters are here and are here to stay. So you have to factor this in when booking a cruise. And for those who want to book early so they might possibly get the fixed seating, you now run the risk of getting booted off your cruise by a charter if you book too early. But on the other hand, I've read where people are booking a year in advance and "fixed" seating is already closed.

 

And of course if you didn't purchase your air from HAL, you're SOL. Too bad, so sad.

 

So cruising isn't what it used to be. The important thing is to know all these variables and then try and make a decision that works for me. HAL can do what they want, but if it's something that doesn't work for me, I'm off elsewhere.

[dakrewser]

Like you, I like my formal nights. I am grateful for the opportunity to dine when I want, especially if the time I want in fixed seating is full.

 

You misunderstand me, I'd be happy if formal nights were done away with. But I much prefer having a set schedule for dinner and other activities - it makes planning so much less arduous.

[Sea Island Lady]

I have my fixed dining time confirmed in writing from Ship Services and Coordinator of the Ships for my next two HAL cruises. We have a 2 top confirmed on one cruise but not yet on the other. I have one cruise booked through an outside TA and one direct. I would not leave this up to a TA. We book way in advance (not last minute) to get the dining that we want.

I'm confused! :confused: I really haven't been paying much attention to these AYWD threads, because I thought I had a confirmed dining time.

 

Now, after reading all these post and seeing that Jade13 has called - to confirm in writing - a fixed dining time, I am more than perplexed. :(

 

When I made reservations for our party of 6 on the Noordam, it was back in September for a 6/08 cruise. I requested an Upper Late seating assignment, based on recommendations from this board. There was no mention of AYWD. I took a look at my invoice and all it says is LATE CONFIRMED. Do I need to worry about getting some sort of confirmation, that I do indeed have a fixed dinner time and table?

[Jade13]

I'm confused! :confused: I really haven't been paying much attention to these AYWD threads, because I thought I had a confirmed dining time.

 

Now, after reading all these post and seeing that Jade13 has called - to confirm in writing - a fixed dining time, I am more than perplexed. :(

 

When I made reservations for our party of 6 on the Noordam, it was back in September for a 6/08 cruise. I requested an Upper Late seating assignment, based on recommendations from this board. There was no mention of AYWD. I took a look at my invoice and all it says is LATE CONFIRMED. Do I need to worry about getting some sort of confirmation, that I do indeed have a fixed dinner time and table?

 

No, not if HAL has confirmed. Plus, I would not worry about late seating with a 6 top.

[mybagsarepacked]

I'm confused! :confused: I really haven't been paying much attention to these AYWD threads, because I thought I had a confirmed dining time.

 

Now, after reading all these post and seeing that Jade13 has called - to confirm in writing - a fixed dining time, I am more than perplexed. :(

 

When I made reservations for our party of 6 on the Noordam, it was back in September for a 6/08 cruise. I requested an Upper Late seating assignment, based on recommendations from this board. There was no mention of AYWD. I took a look at my invoice and all it says is LATE CONFIRMED. Do I need to worry about getting some sort of confirmation, that I do indeed have a fixed dinner time and table?

 

I don't really know, but you do have "confirmed" in paperwork which should give you some sense of secuirty...however there have been several posts that say when they arrived at the ship they were "surprised" by changes.

 

It sounds to me like you are confirmed. But I guess the bigger question is, will HAL honor it once you embark?

[mybagsarepacked]

I have no intentions of having to make reservations each day for dinner. It is asinine.

 

 

 

They'd have a problem.

 

 

 

It is and they do.

 

It will be interesting to see how this works out for them. They days of traditional cruising seem to be going by the wayside. I suspect we'll see more and more of this, eventually, I can see formal nights being a thing of the past. Change happens...and some of the things I'll roll with, some I won't. But at least there are other vacation options.

 

We love to cruise, but there are just too many ships out there these days, at least in the Caribbean. Ports are crowded, many too crowded, and many of these islands are cutting back on how many ships they allow on any given day (and maybe this is why we're seeing more charters-more revenue for the ships if they have to decrease their ports).

 

We mainly cruise for the ship, but now that's being compromised. The introduction of AYWD to HAL (it's more like Friday's call ahead), which is of no interest to us.

 

You have HAL now selling off their "perks" that were once reserved for the PS and Deluxe Suites for those that are in the lower suites.

 

Charters are here and are here to stay. So you have to factor this in when booking a cruise. And for those who want to book early so they might possibly get the fixed seating, you now run the risk of getting booted off your cruise by a charter if you book too early. But on the other hand, I've read where people are booking a year in advance and "fixed" seating is already closed.

 

And of course if you didn't purchase your air from HAL, you're SOL. Too bad, so sad.

 

So cruising isn't what it used to be. The important thing is to know all these variables and then try and make a decision that works for me. HAL can do what they want, but if it's something that doesn't work for me, I'm off elsewhere.

 

Well said. It is sad that some of the old traditions are going the way of the past. I love how you word things. You are right on target.

[twinkletoes4445]

Well said. It is sad that some of the old traditions are going the way of the past. I love how you word things. You are right on target.

 

Many times I read your posts and think they were mine. :)

 

It is too bad that many of the traditions are a thing of the past.

[RevNeal]

FYI -- I booked the Veendam 11 1/2 months out and was put on the waitlist...

 

Yes, indeed. That is also sometimes the case. I gave what tends to be MINIMAL numbers.

[RevNeal]

I recall reading several posts recently that cruisers who had confirmed Traditional on their documentation were changed against their wishes to Open Dining upon their embarcation.

 

I would call that "commiting in writing to a certain dining arrangement during the booking process and that it would be honored on the ship..." wouldn't you:confused: ?

 

So the letter means nothing except as to this particular situation because the OP took the time & trouble to document his problem???:confused:

 

Your memory serves you well. Correct in all particulars. Worse yet, at least some of those with travel documents confirming them in Traditional Dining NEVER got it (and that was a 20 day cruise). I gather that they just gave up pestering the Maitre D and "fell through the crack."

[RevNeal]

I agree wholeheartedly. Calling it As You Wish is assinine. I am trying to keep an open mind, but having to call every day for a reservation is one bone of contention with me as well.

 

What would they do if every person who had this AYWD called room service three nights in a row and had dinner served in their cabins at whatever time they chose?

 

Calling room service is also a form of "As you Wish Dining". So they need to get their nomenclature correct.

 

Actually, HAL has the nomenclature straight -- even if it is misleading. The ENTIRE dining system aboard ship is "As You Wish." "As You Wish" Dining contains two principle options, and then several alternatives within each option. The Principle options are:

 

1. Open Seating

2. Traditional Seating

 

Within "Open Seating" one is free to come at the time one wants, or to make a reservation for the time/table that they want. Within "Traditional Seating" one has the option of selecting Early or Main dining and a range of table sizes. Beyond these two principle options, and their internal variations, there are the alternatives that exist for those in either option: The Lido, the Pinnacle, and Room Service. These all make up the "As You Wish Dining System." Too many people here have identified "Open" as if it were "As You Wish." While it is true that it is part of "As You Wish," it is not exclusively synonymous with "As You Wish."

 

As wonderful as all the above sounds, its implementation leaves something to be desired. Specifically, the two principle options are, quite early in the booking history of each cruise, reduced from two to one ... and, hence, to no option at all. Those who "wish" Traditional Dining find that there just isn't enough availability in this option for all those that wish it. There is, apparently, no problem with accomodating them in Open Dining, however, and so most just have to settle for this "option." In other words ... what sounds great, as outlined on HAL's website and in their other published literature, isn't fully available unless one books (often times) as early as a year in advance. For those who get on the waitlist, what they "wish" has been noted, but there is no way to actually get what you wish unless there is sufficient availability either when you board or soon thereafter. You'll just have to wait and see. For those booking 6 months out ... too bad, and book earlier next time. You might "wish" to have traditional Dining, but it's not just waitlisted on 70% of the sailings at this point ... it's CLOSED. So ... select Open and make the best of it. After all, it's not going to kill you, those who claim it "ruins" their cruise are just being hyperbolic, and you never really know ... you might even like it! (In actuality, the Line thought you might like to try it but didn't have the guts to make the leap for yourself, so they pushed you into it ... wasn't that nice of them?? ;) ) So, if you're in Open Seating, just make your reservations and try to approximate the Traditional experience as best as you can ... because it's probably as close to Traditional as you're going to get on that cruise. And, if you're solo and incapable of obtaining Traditional, your options are: (1) eat alone (as you do most of the time anyway! What's the big deal???? You should be used to doing that by now ... right?!), (2) impose yourself upon people who probably don't want you sitting with them, (3) come on the cruise with others with whom you wish to dine (the best option), or try to network with other solo travelers once you're aboard, scrounging up groups for dinner on your own accord.

 

That's "As You Wish" in practice.

[RevNeal]

I'm confused! :confused: I really haven't been paying much attention to these AYWD threads, because I thought I had a confirmed dining time.

 

Now, after reading all these post and seeing that Jade13 has called - to confirm in writing - a fixed dining time, I am more than perplexed. :(

 

When I made reservations for our party of 6 on the Noordam, it was back in September for a 6/08 cruise. I requested an Upper Late seating assignment, based on recommendations from this board. There was no mention of AYWD. I took a look at my invoice and all it says is LATE CONFIRMED. Do I need to worry about getting some sort of confirmation, that I do indeed have a fixed dinner time and table?

 

Probably not. If you had a Confirmed Late Lower Seating you would probably be in trouble, but since you had confirmed an Upper Level seating you should be fine.

[hammybee]

"It is too bad that many of the traditions are a thing of the past.

 

Traditional dining and attire are alive and well on Crystal. All we have to do is pay 68-77% more to get it:

 

11/22/08 Crystal Serenity has a rare 7 day sail R/T from MIA.

Outsides starting from $2480. Balcony cabins from $4806.

 

11/22 HAL Eurodam 7 day sail R/T FLL.

Outsides from $799. Balcony cabins from $1,099

 

I cannot afford Crystal so I'll take a chance on getting what I wish for with HAL at a price I can afford. Chances are, I'll be dining when I want, in either fixed or open seating.

[iancal]

We did not have anytime dining on our recent Westerdam cruise. From the stories on this board, it appears as though HAL has made a real hash of the implementation. This surprises me. We experienced anytime on the Star Princess and found it to be absolutely first rate. Mind you, Princess may well have had implemetation challenges at the start of their program. Since Princess and HAL are under the same corporate umbrella, it surprises me that they would not have called upon that experience and knowlege when it came to implementing anytime on HAL. Cruise fares, like airline fares, in relative terms ,have really decreased over the past ten years. This is good.....we are going on more cruises than ever. I can understand why the lines are trying to make that revenue up in other ways. If the cruise lines, including HAL, continue to reduce staffing levels, reduce food costs/quality, etc the market will eventually rebalance itself with the introduction of a 'newer, better' cruise experience. HAL seems headed for the lowest common denominator while at the same time trying to exude a air of exclusivity. Seems to be a little contradictory and the market will get mixed up.

[Golfette]

No, I didn't expect Kruse to read the letter, so I just addressed it to his office. In my 5 HAL cruises, I've only had a problem that rose to the level of my writing to HAL twice. The first time was due to the cavalier attitude a couple of ships had toward providing ADA equipment for the hearing impaired. The shore people were great, on the ship it was a different story. The first time I really received what the Accomodations people said would be available was on this Oosterdam cruise. The letter I received back from the CEO's office did prove that an actual investigation of the problem had been performed.

.

 

Sundagger, this is the 1st time I've seen ADA compliance for the hearing-impaired mentioned on these boards. Could you kindly let me know what accommodations they provided and how they worked. I'm especially interested to know whether they have anything that would help in the showroom and at lectures. I have a hearing problem too:o .

[hammybee]

This surprises me. We experienced anytime on the Star Princess and found it to be absolutely first rate. Mind you, Princess may well have had implemetation challenges at the start of their program.

 

That's an understatement. The Princess Board was lit up like a Christmas Tree for the first few years on this topic. It still pops on their board when occasionally way too many passengers want the same thing, at the same time. Princess also has the waitlist issue too although it does not appear to be to the extent we are seeing on HAL.

 

Princess did not implement open seating on it's three older and smaller ships These are the ships that tend to do longer and more exotic cruises. I think the Regal was sold. Pacific and Tahitian carry about 690 passengers. I am not sure if they remain Open Seating free.

 

Princess allowed passengers in the know to reserve the same table/time. Those not in the know were then often stuck with very early or late dining for the duration of their cruise. I think Princess pulled back some and now allows only a 2-3 day standing reservation.

 

The new builds on Princess have 2 dining rooms for open seating versus one for fixed.

 

HAL made the decision to not allow tables to be reserved during prime time, dining time, to give everyone a fair shot at a table.

 

Each approach has its strengths and weaknesses.

[Bill S]

On our just-concluded Feb 18 Zaandam cruise, AYWD was implemented the first night. We spoke with several folks who were very unhappy with it. We had early traditional seating (lucky these days, I guess).

Two of our tablemates were doing a Renewal of Vows on the the first formal night. The ROV started at 7:15, and they did not want to be rushed to finish dinner, so they asked the maitre'd if they could dine downstairs in open seating that night. The maitre'd told them "yes", but they would then forfeit their traditional seating spot! They elected to dine in the Lido that night rather than give up their seating reservation.

We met another couple who booked late and were assigned AYWD and they hated it because they could never get through to make a reservation-they were on hold forever several mornings straight, so they gave up and elected to eat in the Lido every night. Who wants to waste time waiting to make a reservation like that every day?

It seems that the concept is very inflexible from what we heard on the Zaandam.

Truly, "As You Wish Dining" is a severely misleading title for this concept, IMO.

We are booked for open seating for our next cruise, and I imagine that we will probably dine in the Lido if we encounter the same or similar difficulties as did the folks we met on the Zaandam.

[innlady1]

That's true, hammy.

On our recent cruise, we were allowed to make reservations at 5:30 or 5:45; and then at 8 and 8:15, I believe...we dine early so I'm not absolutely certain about the latter hours. We made ours for 5:45 each night at the same table for two, and it worked like a charm.

 

I still don't know why people are so opposed to placing a simple phone call during the day to reserve. It was certainly not a bother. :confused: